Going to a GLBT club?

[MilesVitae]

There is a club where I have gone dancing several times which labels itself as a GLBT club. If I am not doing anything immoral here, and it is not a near occasion of sin for me (I am not GLBT myself), is it it wrong for me to go dancing at this club? My thought was that I might be supporting evil by paying money to get in, buying a drink there, etc., or perhaps just by being there (some nights one can get in for free).

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

There is a club where I have gone dancing several times which labels itself as a GLBT club. If I am not doing anything immoral here, and it is not a near occasion of sin for me (I am not GLBT myself), is it it wrong for me to go dancing at this club? My thought was that I might be supporting evil by paying money to get in, buying a drink there, etc., or perhaps just by being there (some nights one can get in for free).

Short answer, yes. You are supporting that lifestyle. Is there no where else to do dancing?

 

[thistle]

There is a club where I have gone dancing several times which labels itself as a GLBT club. If I am not doing anything immoral here, and it is not a near occasion of sin for me (I am not GLBT myself), is it it wrong for me to go dancing at this club? My thought was that I might be supporting evil by paying money to get in, buying a drink there, etc., or perhaps just by being there (some nights one can get in for free).

Forgive my ignorance but what does GLBT means?

 

[michelleds]

GLBT is Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender

In my opinion and FWIW, I would not recommend doing this. My primary reason is that this is not only a financial support, but your presence will be used as “proof” that straights approve and accept this lifestyle. 20+ years ago, gay bars and clubs didn’t want heterosexuals in their space, it just wasn’t done. but welcoming straights into those clubs has created (1) acceptance among younger generations and (2) numbers.

 

[mcteague]

There is a club where I have gone dancing several times which labels itself as a GLBT club. If I am not doing anything immoral here, and it is not a near occasion of sin for me (I am not GLBT myself), is it it wrong for me to go dancing at this club? My thought was that I might be supporting evil by paying money to get in, buying a drink there, etc., or perhaps just by being there (some nights one can get in for free).

I have strong objections to your categorizing LGBT as evil. You might really reflect on that. I am not saying you should approve or participate. But evil?
Gay bashing is evil. Being gay is not.
I do not believe the Catholic position is that LGBT is evil. Calling it evil may actually promote real evil.
I assume that since you go there that you have LGBT friends. And that you wish no harm to anyone. Think about how the language we use affects the world around us. You are probably fairly young. It is important to be aware of the little ways each of us can be a force for good or evil.

 

[Bookcat]

I have strong objections to your categorizing LGBT as evil. You might really reflect on that. I am not saying you should approve or participate. But evil?
Gay bashing is evil. Being gay is not.
I do not believe the Catholic position is that LGBT is evil. Calling it evil may actually promote real evil.
I assume that since you go there that you have LGBT friends. And that you wish no harm to anyone. Think about how the language we use affects the world around us. You are probably fairly young. It is important to be aware of the little ways each of us can be a force for good or evil.

Objectively it is *evil *for from what I read above it seems to be a club to foster such realationships which are objectively evil. I assume it is a club for persons with such attractions to meet to date and dance living out their attractions.

Persons with homosexual attractions (same sex attraction) are not evil…but to act upon such is an objective evil …just as if I act upon some attraction that happens to me and leave my wife with my son and go on a date dancing with some girl I find attractive.

If I went thus to a club that was set up to promote men cheating on their wives…that club too would be objectively evil. I as a Christian should not go to either club…even though I do not seek either homosexual or adulterous companions. For I would be approving etc those who do…for that is the main purpose of the club.

Catechism:

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

 

[MilesVitae]

I have strong objections to your categorizing LGBT as evil. You might really reflect on that. I am not saying you should approve or participate. But evil?
Gay bashing is evil. Being gay is not.
I do not believe the Catholic position is that LGBT is evil. Calling it evil may actually promote real evil.
I assume that since you go there that you have LGBT friends. And that you wish no harm to anyone. Think about how the language we use affects the world around us. You are probably fairly young. It is important to be aware of the little ways each of us can be a force for good or evil.

I was not suggesting that those who experience same sex attraction or transgender feelings are, as such, evil. None the less, such actions or “lifestyles” are morally evil.

 

[Rascalking]

I’ve gone to many clubs, never been to a gay one before…in fact, I don’t know of any straight people who have gone to gay clubs regularly.

Is it sinful? I don’t know.

Is maybe your subconscious trying to tell you something? Don’t know that either…

 

[MilesVitae]

I’ve gone to many clubs, never been to a gay one before…in fact, I don’t know of any straight people who have gone to gay clubs regularly.

I am not much of club-goer - I’ve only been to two in fact, but the straight club felt much more dirty and outright sexual than the other (one of the reasons my friends and I prefer the latter). Although it calls itself GLBT and declares itself open to “all lifestyles,” or something to that effect, there actually seem to be quite a number of straight people who go there, and there is often no particularly homosexually (or other) orientation (no pun intended) to it.

Is maybe your subconscious trying to tell you something?

My subconscious doesn’t have much play here. I have quite consciously thought that it would probably be sinful to go, but I figured I’d get a second, or third…or further, opinions.

 

[Rascalking]

I am not much of club-goer - I’ve only been to two in fact, but the straight club felt much more dirty and outright sexual than the other (one of the reasons my friends and I prefer the latter). Although it calls itself GLBT and declares itself open to “all lifestyles,” or something to that effect, there actually seem to be quite a number of straight people who go there, and there is often no particularly homosexually (or other) orientation (no pun intended) to it.

My subconscious doesn’t have much play here. I have quite consciously thought that it would probably be sinful to go, but I figured I’d get a second, or third…or further, opinions.

Well, you got my opinion my friend.

Have a good weekend.

 

[Newbie2]

I have strong objections to your categorizing LGBT as evil. You might really reflect on that. I am not saying you should approve or participate. But evil?
Gay bashing is evil. Being gay is not.
I do not believe the Catholic position is that LGBT is evil. Calling it evil may actually promote real evil.
I assume that since you go there that you have LGBT friends. And that you wish no harm to anyone. Think about how the language we use affects the world around us. You are probably fairly young. It is important to be aware of the little ways each of us can be a force for good or evil.

I beg to differ. The club clearly is supportive of the evils of the lifestyle…otherwise, why would it be a LGBT club in the first place?

I think that is pretty much understood that this is not “Gay bashing”.

Now, that being said, since the OP is going out dancing, maybe (legally) drinking and such, just out for a morally good time, it begs the question, does it not, if going to a “straight” club, where there is “equal opportunity” to “hook up” with members of the opposite sex is equally as supportive of sinful activity.

Fornication, as we know would seem to be sinful as well.

 

[Hilio]

Well well well,

That lifestyle…hmmmm

Take these facts dears…

1. the pope allows 26.2 % of priests to pedophilia of young boys when he should sell his Vatican paintings to support the lawsuits…
2. in north America alone, the new phrase is the recovering catholic…hmmm
3. gay men rule the world 66.2% of wall street are gay…
4. the catholic church has problems with men coming out to be gay because they want their flock to be reproduced in big numbers
5. Catholics are hypocrites because they are the only religion who pray to statues but there is no real hope there…
6. most priests have homers under their robes before erections of boys before mass
7. Catholics forget there are more prominent religions out there are other atheist ways of modern thinking…

8 I hearcthere are christians and evangelists all over gay beaches

1. remember gay mens brains are 66.5 percent more developed than the catholic straight brain
2. why to Catholics prostrate before entering their pews because they pray to an unknown figure on the wall…

May gay people of the world **** the catholic church and Christians over and over

 

[mcteague]

I was not suggesting that those who experience same sex attraction or transgender feelings are, as such, evil. None the less, such actions or “lifestyles” are morally evil.

My objection is to the strength of the word. Which I think is inappropriate. Evil is a pretty strong word. If you had written that you did not want to support something you believe is morally wrong, I would not have objected.
Not everything that is wrong is necessarily evil. I find people who spit on the sidewalk repulsive. I think they are doing something wrong. But I do not consider them or the act evil.
I did not mean to suggest that you were gay bashing. However defining gayness as evil could legitimate and contribute to the real evil of gay bashing. It is an inappropriate and potentially harmful use of language. It is to strong. There are many things one may believe are wrong, but would you call all of them evil?
I am just encouraging a more appropriate use of language.

 

[JaneGrey]

Firstly, I hope it goes without saying that the post number 12 is trolling and certainly not reflective of how all non-catholics and non-catholic homosexuals view Catholicism. I cant speak for them of course but those i know personally at least do not express such repugnant thoughts to my face. It saddens me that many on CAF might think that those who support homosexuality are necessarily disrespectful of the Church.

Rant over.

To the OP, I do not think going to an LGBT club is in itself more sinful than going to the typical ‘straight’ club of today. However it all depends on how these things affect the individuals involved. Your conscience is obviously telling you something, and since what it seems to be telling you is in line with your Catholic beliefs and not in conflict with it, then I say go with your conscience on this one. Certainly do not keep going to LGBT clubs if you feel that it is affecting your faith negatively.

God bless

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yeah, no homosexuality in evidence? Don’t use the men’s bathroom.

 

[mcteague]

Firstly, I hope it goes without saying that the post number 12 is trolling and certainly not reflective of how all non-catholics and non-catholic homosexuals view Catholicism. I cant speak for them of course but those i know personally at least do not express such repugnant thoughts to my face. It saddens me that many on CAF might think that those who support homosexuality are necessarily disrespectful of the Church.

Rant over.

God bless

I assume that you are referring to the post that seems to have been removed, and not to my discourse on appropriate use of language. But I am actually now number 12.
By the way I share your feelings about that other post.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

That poster was on several threads and I assume his posts have been removed and that he has been banned. I reported all his posts. I wish there was some way we could prevent that sort of disgusting post from even showing up on the board.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

In my opinion and FWIW, I would not recommend doing this. My primary reason is that this is not only a financial support, but your presence will be used as “proof” that straights approve and accept this lifestyle. 20+ years ago, gay bars and clubs didn’t want heterosexuals in their space, it just wasn’t done. but welcoming straights into those clubs has created (1) acceptance among younger generations and (2) numbers.

Just my two cents here, but many straight women I’ve known enjoy going to gay clubs because they feel straight ones are more predatory, and many straight men enjoy going to gay clubs because they don’t feel pressured to be predatory or behave in any number of the ways the collective social animal encourages as normative between men and women. In either case, they’re freed up from the negative aspects of how their sexuality is supposed (again, in the popular/collective/social sense) to play out and have an easier time enjoying themselves with their mates. Which doesn’t, let’s be honest, say anything about how great gay clubs are or can be, but how poor straight clubs are or can be (among other things).

So given your rhetoric, Michelle, the choice for these people would be: support the gays, or support predatory heterosexuality. In which case, maybe it might be best for them just to buy a cat and stay at home reading the dictionary?

JaneGrey:

go with your conscience on this one

As for this comment and the rationale leading up to it, I think we need to be careful to distinguish between conscience and how we internalize external authority structures. They’re not the same thing, but they can become easily confused. It may indeed be that the OP’s conscience would rather he or she stay away from gay bars. It may also be that the OP has internalized certain authority structures which say he or she *should *stay away from gay bars. The authority of conscience is undeniable, but the authority of an internalized structure (which, like a political ideology, is little more than a social pattern which we’ve taken on board and been persuaded to see as indicative of a whole host of things we *should *desire or should consider natural or normative) is illegitimate.

I mention this because it is easy for us to engage in scrupulosity and call it conscience. Despite some evidence to the contrary throughout these forums, I refuse to believe that the Roman Church, let alone the whole of Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, is interested in fostering a legalistic consciousness which merely masquerades as conscience. The Church is interested in forming within us the capacity to recognize, pursue and foster the good wherever we may find it. It is interested in giving us the living mind of Christ, not a checklist of dos and don’ts intended to replace our consciences or to assume the moral burden of choice which our conscience is designed to bear. Sometimes, these distinctions can be subtle. But I think that mentioning that these distinctions do exist is, now and then, important.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[michelleds]

Grace & Peace!

So given your rhetoric, Michelle, the choice for these people would be: support the gays, or support predatory heterosexuality. In which case, maybe it might be best for them just to buy a cat and stay at home reading the dictionary?

This is just my opinion, but back in the day, I frequented LOTS of gay bars across 4 states–all in the midwest. And not one of them would I think was a good place for anyone to be who was trying to live a Christian life. drug usage, drug deals, sex on the dance floor, sex in the bathrooms, sex in the parking lot, sex in the hallways, fights, weapons, etc etc

I’ve been to quite a few straight bars in my day and I’ve been to ones that were just like the gay bars (drugs, sex, fights, etc) and I’ve been to ones where it really was more about dancing and good times. the good ones were mostly country bars, but maybe that was coincidental.

My point is this: if one wants to seek and live a moral life, it’s probably not going to be found in most dance clubs and certainly not in gay bars.

 

[JaneGrey]

I assume that you are referring to the post that seems to have been removed, and not to my discourse on appropriate use of language. But I am actually now number 12.
By the way I share your feelings about that other post.

Yes I was exactly referring to that one, not to yours. I was not sure how else to refer to it. I commented on it not to give that person attention, but because something made me suspect that the person has some uncharitable issues with homosexuals and made up an account to make them come across very negatively.

To clarify, when I said ‘follow your conscience’ to the OP I also stressed that it was acceptable in this case as the OPs conscience was obviously telling her (him?) something in line with Church teaching.

Sometimes what we think is our conscience speaking to us is obviously us being tempted to sin, however I do not think the OP is at risk of that here.