Going to a Water Park

[RHannosh619]

Let us represent the results of the study accurately. Not all men are the same, for one, so there is no “man’s mind” here. National Geographic, in its reporting on the study, even uses the qualifier “some” when referring to “men.”

Second, not every man is going to lust at a woman in a bikini, making your statement that such lust is inevitable as offensive as it is incorrect.

Obviously we don’t live in a saintly all catholic world…we live in such a secular world, someone(many) is bound to lust…have some self respect ladies… What Would Mary Do…

Again nobody has yet to answer…what’s the difference between bikini and underwear???

Hey look, I used to be the biggest file sharer/internet pirate and I denied it so much saying nooo its not stealing etc… but you got to man up and realize that as much as u might think something is okay, if its wrong its wrong…

This is the case with public display of underw…err…bikinis…

 

[Debora123]

Again nobody has yet to answer…what’s the difference between bikini and underwear???

One is worn under the clothes for hygiene reasons or for support (in the case of a bra), the other is worn for water activities.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

2525 Christian purity requires a purification of the social climate. It requires of the communications media that their presentations show concern for respect and restraint. Purity of heart brings freedom from widespread eroticism and avoids entertainment inclined to voyeurism and illusion.

2526 So called moral permissiveness rests on an erroneous conception of human freedom; the necessary precondition for the development of true freedom is to let oneself be educated in the moral law. Those in charge of education can reasonably be expected to give young people instruction respectful of the truth, the qualities of the heart, and the moral and spiritual dignity of man.

2527 "The Good News of Christ continually renews the life and culture of fallen man; it combats and removes the error and evil which flow from the ever-present attraction of sin. It never ceases to purify and elevate the morality of peoples. It takes the spiritual qualities and endowments of every age and nation, and with supernatural riches it causes them to blossom, as it were, from within; it fortifies, completes, and restores them in Christ."316

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a9.htm#I

 

[empther]

Again and again on this thread and on other threads I’ve seen elsewhere, people are equating men’s looking at woman to lust. It ain’t so.

Looking isn’t the same as lust unless the make says, thinks, or feels: “I wish I could get her into bed.”
It’s not possible for a man to want to go to bed with every woman he sees, unless he is some kind of severely deranged individual. But such a person would not waste his time on the beach where he is bound to be frustrated. He’d go to the red li\ght district.

 

[Bookcat]

Looking isn’t the same as lust unless the make says, thinks, or feels: “I wish I could get her into bed.”
.

Such would be a reduction.

 

[Debora123]

Again and again on this thread and on other threads I’ve seen elsewhere, people are equating men’s looking at woman to lust. It ain’t so.

Looking isn’t the same as lust unless the make says, thinks, or feels: “I wish I could get her into bed.”
It’s not possible for a man to want to go to bed with every woman he sees, unless he is some kind of severely deranged individual. But such a person would not waste his time on the beach where he is bound to be frustrated. He’d go to the red li\ght district.

I think this is where a big part of the confusion lies. A lot of people can’t understand that there is a difference between sexual attraction and actual lust.

 

[Bookcat]

One can lust without thinking “I want to get the person into bed”. Such would be a reduction.

Attraction yes need not lead to lust. But modesty both on the part of the person being seen and on the part of the one seeing – must protect chastity. And one can lead another into the sin of lust --via ones immodesty.

And while certainly every man needs a reasonable Custodia Occulorum (custody of the eyes) women need to be aware of the differences between men and women in this area in particular and choose their clothing appropriately. (As Bl. Pope John Paul II noted in one of is great works – Love and Responsibility-- women need to come to understand this --for it is not part of their particular inner experience -(*my words there).)

(and it is good to note too that one can sin via immodesty -venially and gravely)

 

[englishredrose]

hope you have fun, or if you been, hope you had fun and did you enjoy the day out?

 

[Bookcat]

One can lust without thinking “I want to get the person into bed”. Such would be a reduction.

Attraction yes need not lead to lust. But *modesty *both on the part of the person being seen and on the part of the one seeing – must protect chastity. And one can lead another into the sin of lust --via ones immodesty.

And while certainly every man needs a reasonable Custodia Occulorum (custody of the eyes) women need to be aware of the differences between men and women in this area in particular and choose their clothing appropriately. (As Bl. Pope John Paul II noted in one of is great works – Love and Responsibility-- women need to come to understand this --for it is not part of their particular inner experience -(*my words there).)

 

[empther]

think this is where a big part of the confusion lies. A lot of people can’t understand that there is a difference between sexual attraction and actual lust.

Add a third category. :hey_bud:

There are differences between looking at a girl, sexual attraction, and lust.

Looking at a girl is just admiration. Nothing wrong with that.

Sexual attraction is something that happens between two people who are involved with each other. Like a boy and girl dating. Nothing wrong with that in itself. The goal is possible marriage. There must be sexual attaction of some kind to make the goal possible.

Lust is intention to have sex with the other person if the opportunity arises,
without committment.

 

[Debora123]

Add a third category. :hey_bud:

There are differences between looking at a girl, sexual attraction, and lust.

Looking at a girl is just admiration. Nothing wrong with that.

Sexual attraction is something that happens between two people who are involved with each other. Like a boy and girl dating. Nothing wrong with that in itself. The goal is possible marriage. There must be sexual attaction of some kind to make the goal possible.

Lust is intention to have sex with the other person if the opportunity arises,
without committment.

Lust involves not seeing the person as a human being. It’s dehumanizing. It’s about using the other person as an object for selfish self gratification. This can be done in the heart/mind if you perceive the person as something other than a human being.

 

[Bookcat]

Lust is intention to have sex with the other person if the opportunity arises,

One can lust without thinking “I want to get the person into bed” or “intending to have sex”. Such would be a reduction.

Attraction yes need not lead to lust. But modesty both on the part of the person being seen and on the part of the one seeing – must protect chastity. And one can lead another into the sin of lust --via ones immodesty.

And while certainly every man needs a reasonable *Custodia Occulorum *(custody of the eyes) women need to be aware of the differences between men and women in this area in particular and choose their clothing appropriately. (As Bl. Pope John Paul II noted in one of is great works – Love and Responsibility-- women need to come to understand this --for it is not part of their particular inner experience -(*my words there).)

And as to “looking” …one needs to be guided by modesty (and of course chastity).

 

[empther]

And as to “looking” …one needs to be guided by modesty (and of course chastity).

One does not have to be on a beach to see a girl’s shape. It’s apparent when she’s fully dressed anywhere, unless she’s in a loose fitting nun’s habit. What real difference is there between a bikini and a blouse and jeans outfit? Not much. There’s the girl and a boy can’t help seeing her.

Modesty then becomes wearing what is appropriate for the location and situation, but not covering up. Only nuns can cover up.

 

[Bookcat]

One does not have to be on a beach to see a girl’s shape. It’s apparent when she’s fully dressed anywhere, unless she’s in a loose fitting nun’s habit. What real difference is there between a bikini and a blouse and jeans outfit? Not much. There’s the girl and a boy can’t help seeing her.

Modesty then becomes wearing what is appropriate for the location and situation, but not covering up. .

Can one look lustfully even a modestly dressed person? Yes.

(The words of Jesus regarding looking lustfully where first directed in general)

There is though yes a big difference in someone being immodestly dressed and someone being modestly dressed.

Catechism

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

2525 Christian purity requires a purification of the social climate. It requires of the communications media that their presentations show concern for respect and restraint. Purity of heart brings freedom from widespread eroticism and avoids entertainment inclined to voyeurism and illusion.

2526 So called moral permissiveness rests on an erroneous conception of human freedom; the necessary precondition for the development of true freedom is to let oneself be educated in the moral law. Those in charge of education can reasonably be expected to give young people instruction respectful of the truth, the qualities of the heart, and the moral and spiritual dignity of man.

2527 "The Good News of Christ continually renews the life and culture of fallen man; it combats and removes the error and evil which flow from the ever-present attraction of sin. It never ceases to purify and elevate the morality of peoples. It takes the spiritual qualities and endowments of every age and nation, and with supernatural riches it causes them to blossom, as it were, from within; it fortifies, completes, and restores them in Christ."316

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a9.htm#I

 

[empther]

Can one look lustfully even a modestly dressed person? Yes.

Yes, but a man who is so disposed doesn’t go to Wal-Mart to look at girls. He goes to ( fill in the blank ).

I’m saying women should not worry about men lusting after them just because they look good. There will always be one girl who does dress prevocatively and she will attract lustful attention, which is what she wants. All the rest of the girls don’t have to worry about it.
I suspect nearly every woman already understands this.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, but a man who is so disposed doesn’t go to Wal-Mart to look at girls. He goes to ( fill in the blank ).

I’m saying women should not worry about men lusting after them just because they look good. There will always be one girl who does dress prevocatively and she will attract lustful attention, which is what she wants. All the rest of the girls don’t have to worry about it.
I suspect nearly every woman already understands this.

Jesus was not simply referring to those who look as women who where prostitutes etc. It applies to all. Any place…anyone. Men can lust anywhere and they do not restrict it to certain places.

A woman can look reasonably attractive or beautiful within the realm of modesty.

They need though in doing so be modest. Nor does one need an intention to cause men to lust etc in order to dress immodestly. As Bl. Pope John Paul II noted in the book I mentioned --women can be not aware of such (they have a different make up than men…and not just in terms of war-paint) and need to become aware of this reality --of the effects upon men.

All persons need to dress modestly and beware of the realities involved. Some will need to gain more awareness then they presently have (many in our present culture).

 

[RHannosh619]

The issue is only partly due to men lusting at women, but more-so the women not being modest.

The catechism sums it up pretty well. Jason Evert does a great job talking about it. Jesus himself would agree, that I am sure.

2 piece bikini’s, for the most part, are immodest. Any woman who thinks otherwise has been influenced by society.

Also, Debora, you missed the point. Let me rephrase my question. How does a bikini differ than underwear in WHAT it covers…nothing. The bikini is essentially a bra, and underwear, easy enough.

Don’t get me wrong, the 2 piece bikini itself is not sinful or wearing one doesn’t make you a bad person, I highly doubt its GRAVE… however, it’s immodest to wear one in public.

Let me quickly clarify, if a women is going to wear a bikini underneath her clothes, and then takes it off for a quick second to jump into some hotel swimming pool, where her body remains under the water for most of the time, then I think this is OK. However, as soon as she gets out, she should cover up. The beach on the other hand, most of the time people are frolicking around, so wearing bikini is inappropriate.

 

[hwriggles4]

I live in Florida, all I ever wear is spaghetti tanks and shorts (that are shorter than knee length). As for spandex shorts, I wear them sometimes when I go running during the summer. I don’t find these clothes immodest at all for outdoor wear, just as I don’t find most bikinis immodest at all for beach/pool wear.

I do appreciate you presenting your opposing opinion in a charitable manner, so thank you for that.

As a straight Catholic man, I would like to put in my 2 cents. I hope this thread doesn’t become a “TMI-Type thread”.

I agree with Debora123 that wearing a bikini on the beach is different than say, wearing a bikini top at the grocery store. Recently, I happened to witness a girl (she was probably high school age) and her friend suntanning in a parking lot on a busy street. One even ran across the street (can you say “distraction” - I’m not dead) when I was driving. I wanted to pull over and say something like “girls, I know it’s 80 degrees outside, but I think you two need to find a backyard.”

Two years ago, I recall visiting Atlantic City and I liked the fact that the beaches were screened a little ways from the boardwalk. On the boardwalk, both men and women had to be appropriately covered before going into stores and restaurants. Most women I know will not remove their cover ups until they are on the beach.

I was a swimmer growing up too, and for competitive swimming, the girls uniform was a one piece, primarily because a bikini is not as functional for racing (I think most women would agree here), although some of the female surfers say they tie double knots in their swimmwear for obvious reasons. A few years back, I recall going to the beach with a girl I dated, and sometimes, she wore a bikini, which looked nice on her and it was not too revealing (she had asked me ahead of time about bathing suits). Other times, she wore a tankini, which looked nice too.

My mother was a swimming instructor for a long time, and she is still in good shape. I remember when I was about 12 she said she never taught swimming lessons in a two piece, and I think that was because little kids can pull on your swimsuit.

This is an observation from my younger days: I have also known some girls that if their plan was to spend more time in the water they would wear a one piece, while if their plan was to tan, they would go with the bikini. I also knew some girls that would only wear a bikini in their backyard or at a friend’s house (say, at a private pool). IMHO, I think it also depended on the girls knowing who was going to be there and who they were comfortable with. I’ve had girls in the past tell me they were reluctant to attend a pool party where a large crowd was present. I have also known women that would make it a point to wear a one piece at a public beach or a public pool. **IMHO, there is nothing wrong with this - I see it more as a comfort zone or personal preference. **

I hope this helps, and gives a man’s perspective.

 

[Colorad007]

Women have such a benign, naive view of male sexuality. It’s charming, but it’s usually so wrong, and really so dangerously wrong. To think that you can wear a bikini, whether in a pool or in your local Baskin Robbins, without inciting lust is simply naive. I don’t intend that as a criticism, and I certainly hope that it is not taken that way. Male sexuality is geared towards consumption, and God’s grace, solid moral training, and good discipline can reorient that, but it can’t completely do away with concupiscience. Women and girls absolutely must make protecting the purity of their brothers a primary concern. To assume that lust is “just a guy’s problem” and that we ought to just get over ourselves, is not an especially charitable (or modest) way of looking at human sexuality or the world more broadly.

Before I was married (I’m now 28), I heard so much about not leading girls on, not breaking their hearts, about being careful with their tender hearts. The guy’s primary obligation, as it were, was to protect a girl’s heart, to help guide her emotions in a holy, healthy way. I took that seriously, although I was by no means a stellar moral example of male leadership.

The female heart is such a tinderbox. But so is male sexuality. Male sexuality is as tender and volatile as a girl’s heart, and should be held in that kind of regard. I can’t speak for other other men, although I can only imagine what they go through, but a bikini is so far from the hard goal of chastity, purity, and modesty to which we’re all called. Whatever the moral responsibility that falls on the men who do the lusting, I pray that women take their own responsibility just as seriously. With the clothes you wear, you’re helping build the culture. With the clothes you wear, you’re setting the tone for the dynamic interaction between the sexes. That’s big stuff.

And I’ll finally add that, even if you should reasonably expect most men to avoid the pitfalls of lust, you’re not going to the pool with only devout Catholics and other Christians. You’re in the pool with a lot of people with NO moral formation, and a lot of teenage boys who have no clue how to handle their own sexuality, no matter how stellar their moral formation. It’s one thing to “look out for” the married, wonderful, 40 year old husband with kids. That’s not as tough. But you’re looking out for EVERY male, many of whom simply can’t deal with a bikni like the Catholic Dad-Of-The-Year can.