Going to Church

[alms]

Both. How Sunday (the Lord’s Day)replaced the Sabbath as the Holy Day is a topic for another thread.

Briefly, The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day.

The Didache is probably the oldest patristic document, from about AD 70 (before some of the NT was written). Its full title originally was The Lord’s Instruction to the Gentiles Through the Twelve Apostles and it says the following:

“But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned.”

We have an obligation to keep the Lord’s Day (which replaces the Sabbath of the OT) holy. The Bible gives us clear instruction how God instructed His people to do that.

Thanks for the info.

Also, the Didache is an awesome historical docment. I always wonder by the Chruch did not consider this work inspired and put it into the biblical cannon. I guess it read too much like a text book.

Some (?) non-Catholic Christians don’t feel the Commandment to “keep holy the Sabbath day” is necessarily an obligation. Maybe they should research how the Jews consider this Commandment.

A Catholic who has been properly instructed in the Faith understands the obligation, but looks on it as a labour of Love. That is why so many attend Mass, not just on Sundays and Holy Days, but as often as possible during the week.

It is a “love affair” with the Lord.

Thanks for the reminder. I agree, it is a “love affair” with the Lord.

 

[alms]

I’ll use an analogy to try and explain how I see it.

I have an obligation, because of my marriage vows, to love, honour and obey my husband. I am obliged to do so, but in reality I do so out of love.

I don’t go to Mass for “fellowship”, I go to give worship and thanksgiving to God for all the graces He has given me. Communal worship? If it was just me and the priest, and no-one else, it would be just as relevant as if there were a hundred people.

 

[alms]

It’d be nice, Atemi, when you’re addressing a question posed by someone who clearly wants the Catholic position on the issue, if you would perhaps clearly identify your own position as your own.

I say this out of concern that the OP might (if not in this case, then in others) become confused about the Catholic position, which was why he/she asked the question in the first place.

Peace,
Dante

Thanks Dante.

 

[Atemi]

“Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” says all that needs to be said on that topic.

The Holy Spirit:

Col 2:16 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.”

Binding and loosing is not carte blanche to make any rule up you want.

And all this assumes that it was the RCC alone that was given such authority to create sin where none existed before.

 

[Atemi]

Jeremy makes a valid point, Atemi.

Any organization has rules and standards that it can rightfully expect its members to abide by.

Yes, but that is not the point.

I was talking with a Baptist woman the other day, and she whispered to me that she likes drinking Margaritas now and then. She then told me that her particular congregation would not “kick her out” for that…but she did keep it “her little secret.” There are many Baptist groups who would disfellowship her, aren’t there?

Probably.

They make the same error I mention earlier.

Error can cross all denominational lines, Randy.

Protestant faith communities have rules, too.

Of course. But rules are not the issue.

It is the claim of grave sin and eternal damnation if the invented and arbitrary rules are not followed.

A church member who drinks a glass of wine against the rules of some men who run his local congregation, is not, and never was, guilty of grave sin against God…punishable by an eternity in Hellfire without repentance.

People can make all the rules they want, and they do.

But that is not the issue here.

…

 

[Atemi]

It’d be nice, Atemi, when you’re addressing a question posed by someone who clearly wants the Catholic position on the issue, if you would perhaps clearly identify your own position as your own.

I didn’t see one other poster supply any such disclaimer before responding.

Would you prefer I wear a yellow armband for identification?

Also, I did not post my own position on what going to Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation was based on. I posted the RCC’s position.

I clearly said that the obligation to attend comes from tradition, while the meeting on Sundays comes from Scripture.

Hmmm.

I guess I can’t win for even telling the truth.

…

 

[Atemi]

There is no obligation for any days in Scripture, so that comes from tradition that came long after the Apostles passed on.

However, we might be obligated to “keep the Lord’s day holy”. So, I suppose this commandment is a good bases for holy days of obligation.

Where are you quoting that commandment from?

I never heard of it.

**Because that is what the Scriptures say the early believers did. **

So, the scriptures do say that “believers” assembled but were not obligated (if you leave out the commandment part to “keep the Lord’s day holy”).

Again, you are quoting a commandment that I have never seen before. Can you please cite the Scripture that says this?

**An obligation, at threat of grave sin, to meet on Sunday is tradition and is not found in God’s Word. We meet out of love of communal worship, not obligation. **

I think if you deliberately do not “keep the Lord’s day holy”, would be a grave sin.

Yet again, you are quoting some strange “commandment” here.

But to just go along with your idea, where does it say that keeping “the Lord’s day holy” means going to Catholic Mass??

• What if one spent the day reading Scripture and fasting?
• What if one spent the day in prayer and fellowship with their family?
• What if one went to Mass on Saturday and not the Lord’s day?

Maybe the Church is on to something here. If they tell us that we are obligated to go to Church/Mass and we are obedient, we keep Gods’ commandments.

No. You have supplied no such commandment thus far.

I am concerned about where your quotes are coming from.

I suppose the next argument would be to dispute that holy days of obligation are tantamount to “keeping the Lord’s day holy”. I’m easily convinced that going to Church/Mass on Sunday is an obligation base on the third commandment (i.e., Scripture).

You mean keeping the Sabbath holy?

You are convinced that God’s commandment to the Jews to keep Saturday holy (from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday) is the same as the RCC’s commandment that you must go to RC Mass on Sunday?

But many, many Catholics do not go to Mass on the Lord’s day.

You are aware of that, correct?

But we also know that the Church obligates us to go to Church/Mass on other days besides Sunday. These other days of obligation are:

January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God;
Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter, the solemnity of the Ascension;
August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary;
November 1, the solemnity of All Saints;
December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception;
December 25, the solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I honestly don’t know if there are any Scriptural bases for Church/Mass attendance obligation on these other days besides Sunday. However, I can certainly understand why these days are important.

God did not command that His people observe any of these. Can you cite any of His commands to observe these holidays?

Actually, God is emphatic to say otherwise. Speaking to Christians:

Col 2:16 “So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.”

Who does the Holy Spirit exclude from “anyone” here?

BTW, I think if you love the Lord, it really doesn’t feel like and obligation anyway.

And yet it is for a billion people.

What do you suppose would happen if the RCC lifted the threat of grave sin?

Maybe the Catholic Church would be left with those who really love the Lord.

I don’t know. Just thinking out loud…

…

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Again, you are quoting a commandment that I have never seen before. Can you please cite the Scripture that says this?

You, sir, are so hell bent on having a scriptural reference for everything that you do not listen to what people say to you. I have noticed this in several threads, now.
You claim to have been Catholic. If you were, as you claim, you would have a copy of the Catechism, which would give you all of the scriptural references to Catholic beliefs and practices.
Before you come on here and demand answers for everything, pick up a copy of the Catechism and try to find it yourself.

 

[Atemi]

You, sir, are so hell bent on having a scriptural reference for everything that you do not listen to what people say to you. I have noticed this in several threads, now.
You claim to have been Catholic. If you were, as you claim, you would have a copy of the Catechism, which would give you all of the scriptural references to Catholic beliefs and practices.
Before you come on here and demand answers for everything, pick up a copy of the Catechism and try to find it yourself.

Well I was sure to check the Catechism as well, and I could not find “keep the Lord’s day holy” anywhere in there either.

I apologize if inquiring thoroughly into these matters disturbs you.

…

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I apologize if inquiring thoroughly into these matters disturbs you.
…

Your inquiry is not what bothers me, it is the attitude you take in these “inquiries”. Passages, quotes, etc are presented to you and you ignore them. You demand demand demand, but then ignore what is given to you. That is what is disturbing.

 

[Atemi]

Your inquiry is not what bothers me, it is the attitude you take in these “inquiries”. Passages, quotes, etc are presented to you and you ignore them. You demand demand demand, but then ignore what is given to you. That is what is disturbing.

The poster said that it was God’s command that we “keep the Lord’s day holy.”

By definition, I did not ignore that because I asked for where that quote and command is in Scripture.

Please pay better attention.

…

 

[tdgesq]

It is the claim of grave sin and eternal damnation if the invented and arbitrary rules are not followed.

Let’s take the last part first. Do you believe Paul’s statement to the Hebrews was just a recommendation? It sure looks like a commandment to me. I for one won’t chalk it up to an invented and arbitrary rule. But I realize it’s the first part about grave sin that you really have a problem with.

The problem we have here is that it doesn’t appear your notion of salvation would ever allow for a grave sin to compromise our salvation so long as one has faith. In fact, I don’t even know if you believe there is such a thing as a grave sin. Is one who doesn’t keep Paul’s command committing a grave sin?

Anyway, this is a good article setting out why the Church teaches what it does: newadvent.org/cathen/14335a.htm

 

[Atemi]

Let’s take the last part first. Do you believe Paul’s statement to the Hebrews was just a recommendation? It sure looks like a commandment to me.

Let us see what the author actually said:

“not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”

Yes. We are not to forsake coming together, as some in that time were in the habit of doing.

I do not disagree with this.

But this does not say: you must go to Mass every Sunday or you will be guilty of grave sin and eternally condemned unless you repent before you die.

No.

That is not there.

He is not even speaking specifically about Sunday, but about fellowship designed to encourage one another.

Not attending service on Sunday is NOT “forsaking” meeting together with our spiritual family. Only the most extreme interpretation can pull that from the text.

The Greek there for “forsake” is emphatic to the point of totally abandoning. This is not missing church on Sunday but gathering on Wednesday and Friday evening.

No.

…

 

[tdgesq]

Let us see what the author actually said:

“not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”

So the NIV doesn’t let us know what he really said then. Unlike you, I think both translations state the same thing. Why don’t you point out to us how they differ in any meaningful way. Here’s the quote again for you.

Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version)

25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Yes. We are not to forsake coming together, as some in that time were in the habit of doing.

Then you agree with me - it is a sin to forsake (give up) meeting together so that we can encourage one another, all the more as the Day approaches.

He is not even speaking specifically about Sunday, but about fellowship designed to encourage one another.

Not remembering what you’ve posted earlier, let me give you a reminder:

Quote:
If it’s based on Sacred Tradition and because Protestant’s are sola scriptura, then why would Protestant’s go to church on Sundays?

Because that is what the Scriptures say the early believers did.

Quote:
If going to church on Sundays is base on Sacred Tradition and not scriptural wouldn’t the Protestant’s immediately call this a tradition of men?

Meeting with the Body on Sunday is Scriptural, as is meeting other days of the week too.

I’ll trust your previous post and agree with you that he is talking about Sunday.

Not attending service on Sunday is NOT “forsaking” meeting together with our spiritual family. Only the most extreme interpretation can pull that from the text.

The Greek there for “forsake” is emphatic to the point of totally abandoning. This is not missing church on Sunday but gathering on Wednesday and Friday evening.

O.k. I’ll play along with your exegesis. Forsake means to totally abandon. Then it follows from your interpretation that if we have attended only one of these meetings in our life, we have not totally abandoned meeting together and have fulfilled Paul’s (for brevity) command. Of course that is absurd, because Paul is telling them the exact opposite - to continue meeting despite having met in the past.

Your dilemma is this; since you claim that there is no guidance in Scripture as to how often the community of believers is to meet, you just have to guess. Interesting that Paul would leave us guessing about whether or not we are forsaking assembly, which is a sin. I’ll stick with the Church’s interpretation, that we are not to forsake assembly on Sunday.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, but that is not the point.

Probably.

They make the same error I mention earlier.

Error can cross all denominational lines, Randy.

Of course. But rules are not the issue.

It is the claim of grave sin and eternal damnation if the invented and arbitrary rules are not followed.

A church member who drinks a glass of wine against the rules of some men who run his local congregation, is not, and never was, guilty of grave sin against God…punishable by an eternity in Hellfire without repentance.

People can make all the rules they want, and they do.

But that is not the issue here.

…

The Baptist pastor has no authority to establish drinking a glass of wine as a sin…Jesus did not convey such authority to him. So, the Baptist - who has no protection via the gift of infallibility - teaches error if he proclaims drinking wine to be a sin. He can, however, establish that rule as a discipline within his congregation or denomination. The Baptist woman who partakes of a glass of wine has not sinned before God, but has broken a rule of her congregation. She has not committed a sin of disobedience either since the Baptist pastor has no authority in the legitimate Church of God and does not speak for Him.

The Catholic Church does have such authority. However, despite that fact has never prohibited anyone from drinking in moderation. The Church has determined taht drinking to become drunk intentionally IS a grave sin.

Similarly, if someone chooses to miss mass through their own fault, then they have disobeyed the Church and are guilty of the sin of disobedience to a precept of the Church.

A non-practicing Catholic who leaves the Church for another denomination has obviously missed mass through his own fault on many, many occasions. God may have mercy on him, but the circumstances of his departure will determine the outcome of that judgment.

This is very significant.

All men have a responsibility to make every effort to ensure that their consciences are formed properly. The study of Protestant theology is not helpful here, of course.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Yet another thread that becomes all about Atemi. :yawn:

I was about to launch into a post-by-post refutation of everything you’ve said, Atemi, but then I decided that’d be wasted effort. You clearly are not interested in civil dicussion of things with which you disagree – once more, you couch your answers in ridicule and condescension, which once more demonstrates that your disdain for Catholicism (and, perhaps, Catholics) has embittered you. Then, to top it all off, you focus in (as usual) on one comment that one poster made and feign ignorance as to what they meant, only to pounce with yet more bitterness on the first person to answer you.

If, indeed, one is a superior debater than one’s opponent, or blessed with superior knowledge about the subject of the debate, it stands to reason, keeping Christian charity in mind, that one should display some class and refrain from taunting one’s opponent.

WHY must you treat people here so disrespectfully? If you don’t like Catholicism, that’s your prerogative. If you don’t like Catholics, that, too, is your prerogative. But if you are, as you say, a Christian, please act like one and stop belittling people with your sarcasm, passive-aggressive tactics, and humiliating comments.

As far as I’m concerned, you’re welcome to join a debate – but your behavior has become tiresome.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Michael_Francis]

Please remain on topic and leave off the attitude.

This thread has been pruned of severel off topic and irrelevant posts.

MF