Going to Heaven: Catholicism vs Protestantism

[GNM1999]

So, I am still fuzzy on the Catholic doctrine on salvation. The Protestant doctrine that I am all too familiar with, is as follows. You’re saved. You go to heaven. There’s no discouragement to do bad, or encouragement to do good other than that bad stuff is bad and good stuff is good, If you catch my drift.

So, how would I, once I have converted and everything, go to heaven? The term “good works” was tossed around alot by other protestants. My current understanding is, you get saved, and then you repent for your sins if you commit them (mortal especially) and if you die in a state of grace (no mortal sins?) You either go straight to heaven if you have no venal sins, or go to Purgatory to atone for your venial sins. Is this correct? Am I missing anything?

Another thing I’ve worried about a lot, is whether I am saved or not. I’m not sure if I am saved. I’ve been baptized. I feel like I’m not saved sometimes , though. I do believe. I prayed the prayers and everything. I do have doubts, now and then. Especially when I go to these Baptist churches, the pastor makes me feel as though I’m not saved 99% of the time. Any help with this would be extremely appreciated.

I’m sorry for all the questions as of late, by the way. I don’t have a priest or anyone to talk to about any of this stuff. Again, thank you, and sorry for all the questions.

 

[LatinoSON]

nobody is saved automatically, people cant expect to be saved right on the dot. If Jesus said to take up your cross and follow him, than i believe it means that we should follow him and live our day to day lives in his presence. St.Paul writes in his letter to phillippians the following:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain."
phillippians 2:12-14

so nobody can really be so sure as to say their saved, only the saints felt this surety. Good works and grace go hand in hand.

 

[littlestsouls2]

If you want a fantastic and relatively brief article, I would read the following from Fr. William Most:

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/JUSTITRT.TXT

At the end of the article, Fr. William Most writes:

“Why good works? Because faith includes obedience, which calls for them. Also, out of gratitude to so good a Father who even gives us by grace an inclination to good works. He, being Holiness, loves all that is good, and so is pleased with our good works. But they do not at all earn salvation in primary sense (Cf. DS 1532 above):if they did, we would have a boast.”

 

[Abu]

GNM1999 31
Another thing I’ve worried about a lot, is whether I am saved or not.

Why don’t you learn from the CCC? The Protestant concoction fails to understand the teaching of Jesus.

**We are not “saved” by Christ’s suffering and death on the cross, but we are REDEEMED, and for salvation we have to work that out in fear and trembling.
**
The crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus has REDEEMED us from our fallen state in which heaven had been closed, but our SALVATION depends upon our cooperation with His saving Grace.

This wallowing in self-interpretation always leads to error.

What is lacking is our co-operation. That is precisely why St Paul teaches: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12). We don’t achieve salvation in one fell swoop by accepting Christ as our personal saviour as some are misled to feel. St Paul knows very well what he is teaching:

So, St Paul:
“But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

As Catholics we need to keep the Commandments and the precepts of the Church, participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and when we sin mortally we must confess.

 

[hazcompat]

Why don’t you learn from the CCC? The Protestant concoction fails to understand the teaching of Jesus.

**We are not “saved” by Christ’s suffering and death on the cross, but we are REDEEMED, and for salvation we have to work that out in fear and trembling.
**
The crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus has REDEEMED us from our fallen state in which heaven had been closed, but our SALVATION depends upon our cooperation with His saving Grace.

This wallowing in self-interpretation always leads to error.

What is lacking is our co-operation. That is precisely why St Paul teaches: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12). We don’t achieve salvation in one fell swoop by accepting Christ as our personal saviour as some are misled to feel. St Paul knows very well what he is teaching:

So, St Paul:
“But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

As Catholics we need to keep the Commandments and the precepts of the Church, participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and when we sin mortally we must confess.

Amen

Pray for me.

Peace

 

[mattp0625]

So, I am still fuzzy on the Catholic doctrine on salvation. The Protestant doctrine that I am all too familiar with, is as follows. You’re saved. You go to heaven. There’s no discouragement to do bad, or encouragement to do good other than that bad stuff is bad and good stuff is good, If you catch my drift.

So, how would I, once I have converted and everything, go to heaven? The term “good works” was tossed around alot by other protestants. My current understanding is, you get saved, and then you repent for your sins if you commit them (mortal especially) and if you die in a state of grace (no mortal sins?) You either go straight to heaven if you have no venal sins, or go to Purgatory to atone for your venial sins. Is this correct? Am I missing anything?

Another thing I’ve worried about a lot, is whether I am saved or not. I’m not sure if I am saved. I’ve been baptized. I feel like I’m not saved sometimes , though. I do believe. I prayed the prayers and everything. I do have doubts, now and then. Especially when I go to these Baptist churches, the pastor makes me feel as though I’m not saved 99% of the time. Any help with this would be extremely appreciated.

I’m sorry for all the questions as of late, by the way. I don’t have a priest or anyone to talk to about any of this stuff. Again, thank you, and sorry for all the questions.

Catholics account for the entire bible when forming it’s interpretation. A fundamentalist approach often relies on a few key verses while ignoring others.
Try google searching these words or phrases in the bible:

Confess
Repent or pennance
God’s judgement
Sheep and goats
Faith alone
Church/pillar of truth

Then, read about Ignatius if Antioch- who he was and what he wrote.

 

[brian_custer]

protestantism ran out of gas as far as a “threat” or challenge" to God’s Holy Church

young people no longer turn to “protestantism”

atheism, agnoticism and secularism or just plain intellectual laziness rule the spiritual mind of the “younger generation”

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

If you help another person gain a crown by helping them develop their initiative and discretion in the service of God’s Kingdom, you gain a share in that crown (otherwise you don’t have one yourself).

Worship is not stunting the growth of the widows and orphans (the fellow believers). It is about feeding the fellow servants their rations on time, because the master is coming back from the far country suddenly. The productive sons and daughters of the profitable family firm are those that traded with their talents (their own initiative and discretion). The New Testament is full of lists of the needed ministries. These are foreshadowed and indeed embodied in Old Testament personalities and situations, including when they went wrong.

Saved (or more probably redeemed as pointed out here) is not the same as and is not as much as gaining a crown or entering the kingdom of heaven.

Life in Christ is freely relational, and not about perpetuating the feudal system. It is about considering devoting one’s life to the upbuilding of one’s fellows. It is not about being doormats or pawns in a political campaign. The Old Testament is full of prophecy addressed to the Church.

Heaven appears to be parallel to earth: some people seem to be there at the same time as being on Earth or the new Earth.

Most passages in the Bible ostensibly about any kind of “afterlife” are ambiguous as between hell and purgatory, or purgatory and heaven. A number of passages aren’t though.

Not many Catholics teach that and not many protestants teach that either.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

GNM1999:

Another thing I’ve worried about a lot, is whether I am saved or not. I’m not sure if I am saved. I’ve been baptized. I feel like I’m not saved sometimes , though. I do believe. I prayed the prayers and everything. I do have doubts, now and then. Especially when I go to these Baptist churches, the pastor makes me feel as though I’m not saved 99% of the time. Any help with this would be extremely appreciated.

Unfortunately, Evangelicals have made “being saved” a sort of emotional experience, which supposedly stays with you if you are indeed saved. It is a vicious lie! There is no emotional experience like that, but rather a smug self-deception.

The problem is this: If an Evangelical feels himself saved, but later in life, due to new circumstances, commits heinous sins, his fellow Evangelicals will say he was NEVER saved in the first place! So there you have it! There is NO assurance of salvation due to your emotional feeling of having been saved. It is a lie. See it for what it is.

You must work past the supposed “imputed justice” or being “saved” to the True Christian belief of Baptismal regeneration. That is where Evangelicals cross the line from falsehood to Christian Truth.

Once you understand that difference, you will easily understand the necessity for works, and the True Christian meaning of Faith and works.

 

[fisherman_carl]

So, I am still fuzzy on the Catholic doctrine on salvation. The Protestant doctrine that I am all too familiar with, is as follows. You’re saved. You go to heaven. There’s no discouragement to do bad, or encouragement to do good other than that bad stuff is bad and good stuff is good, If you catch my drift.

So, how would I, once I have converted and everything, go to heaven? The term “good works” was tossed around alot by other protestants. My current understanding is, you get saved, and then you repent for your sins if you commit them (mortal especially) and if you die in a state of grace (no mortal sins?) You either go straight to heaven if you have no venal sins, or go to Purgatory to atone for your venial sins. Is this correct? Am I missing anything?

Yes. That’s right. But, first you have to realize how you are put right with God into a ‘state of grace’. How do you get in the state of grace/justification to begin with? Through good works? No. This is what many Protestants don’t realize about Catholicism because they think it is a works based righteousness. However, Catholicism does not teach a works based righteousness, but a grace based righteousness. This is why the Catholic Church condemned Pelagianism because Pelagius taught we didn’t need God’s grace.

We can not earn being in a state of grace. We can do nothing to merit being in a state of grace. The Council of Trent states that neither faith or works earns the grace of our initial justification.

We receive this normally in Baptism through the blood of Christ. Now, if we commit mortal sin and lose that state of grace we can still not earn it back or do nothing to merit it back. We receive it as a gift through the Sacrament of Reconciliation where we are reconciled to God through the applied blood of Christ.

As far as salvation being a done deal we can not have absolute certainty for the future since it is always possible for us to walk away from Christ permanently, either through unrepentant mortal sin or apostacy. Since we still have free will.

Yet, we can still have a moral certitude and a confidence and true hope that we will be in heaven as St. Paul said. If we are in a state of grace, we don’t have unrepented mortal sin on our soul, we can have a reasonable moral assurance we will go to heaven. Ultimately, we must have trust in the Lord.

Salvation is also a process of God making true what he declares in us. This is still by grace. Works are the fruit of God’s grace and love working in us. We are created in Christ Jesus to do the works God has ordained. We don’t do them to earn our salvation. They are a result of God’s gift of grace, of remaining in the vine of Jesus where we can receive that grace. We can do nothing apart from him. But, with him we can do all things.

 

[fisherman_carl]

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. "
(John 15:5-7)

Thus, salvation is really abiding in Christ. This is to be in the state of grace cooperating with him.

 

[TxGodfollower]

So, I am still fuzzy on the Catholic doctrine on salvation. The Protestant doctrine that I am all too familiar with, is as follows. You’re saved. You go to heaven. There’s no discouragement to do bad, or encouragement to do good other than that bad stuff is bad and good stuff is good, If you catch my drift.

So, how would I, once I have converted and everything, go to heaven? The term “good works” was tossed around alot by other protestants. My current understanding is, you get saved, and then you repent for your sins if you commit them (mortal especially) and if you die in a state of grace (no mortal sins?) You either go straight to heaven if you have no venal sins, or go to Purgatory to atone for your venial sins. Is this correct? Am I missing anything?

Another thing I’ve worried about a lot, is whether I am saved or not. I’m not sure if I am saved. I’ve been baptized. I feel like I’m not saved sometimes , though. I do believe. I prayed the prayers and everything. I do have doubts, now and then. Especially when I go to these Baptist churches, the pastor makes me feel as though I’m not saved 99% of the time. Any help with this would be extremely appreciated.

I’m sorry for all the questions as of late, by the way. I don’t have a priest or anyone to talk to about any of this stuff. Again, thank you, and sorry for all the questions.

Questions are great! Keep em coming.

My understanding of both sides:

Catholic: Salvation is a free gift, but works are a part of the equation. Sin bad. (dont want to mis-represent Catholic doctrine, so keeping it real basic)

Protestant (mainline): Salvation is a free gift. Many teach once saved, always saved, but not all. Good works earn you rewards in Heaven, but are not necessary to make it to Heaven.

 

[Kliska]

The Protestant doctrine that I am all too familiar with, is as follows. You’re saved. You go to heaven. There’s no discouragement to do bad, or encouragement to do good other than that bad stuff is bad and good stuff is good, If you catch my drift.

Weellll… it depends on the protestant denomination you are speaking of. It runs the gamut between what is called “easy believism” and a doctrine that matches what the RCC teaches.

I would hate to think you were a part of a denomination that didn’t discourage a person to do bad… I don’t know what denomination that would be, though some of the more cheerleading preachers seem not to realize that sin is real. Anywho, many, but not all, protestant denominations see a difference between justification and sanctification.

The idea is that we are justified by grace through faith. Faith is trusting with great confidence. So, by placing our trust in Christ and what He has done and gained for us, grace flows and we are made righteous in the eyes of God the Father via God the Son through the influence of God the Spirit (by, for example, conviction). Sanctification produces right action, or good works. The indwelling of the Spirit enables fruits of the Spirit. And those works, as well as bad works, impact us in life and follow us in death.

If one is Justified, the person isn’t judged because they are in Christ, but their works indeed are judged. The good are rewarded, the bad burned away. The emphasis is usually on the “have been saved” leg of the “have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved” triplet. Works from a protestant perspective, flow from the Holy Spirit indwelling us, and producing those works, and changing us into the image of the Son as we live our lives by faith. We can fight that, or give in to it.

So, how would I, once I have converted and everything, go to heaven? The term “good works” was tossed around alot by other protestants. My current understanding is, you get saved, and then you repent for your sins if you commit them (mortal especially) and if you die in a state of grace (no mortal sins?) You either go straight to heaven if you have no venal sins, or go to Purgatory to atone for your venial sins. Is this correct? Am I missing anything?

I’m obviously protestant, but have dialogued a lot and learned a lot about the Catholic position, so thought I’d take a crack at it for a fellow (current) protestant. Salvation is seen as an ongoing process (like we see sanctification), so the emphasis seems to be on the “is being saved, will be saved” side of the triplet. At baptism, all sin is forgiven up to that point (and takes care of original sin, though the effects still remain as we struggle with fallen nature). After baptism, if sin is accrued, mortal sin needs to be confessed directly, for if one dies with mortal sin on one’s soul, then one is damned (unless there’s a case of perfect contrition, with intent to confess).

You’ll get a difference on opinion on just which sins constitute mortal sin because of the necessary factors that determine that. Venial sin is much like you describe. Mortal sin is seen as being an almost deliberate turning away from God through conscious choice. So, for example, cold blooded murder. If a Christian intentionally and with malice aforethought knowingly kills another human, and the Christian is aware that that is a sin, is seen as turning from God.

From the Catholic view the sacraments are a vehicle of grace, by which God offers “helps” to us humans along the way in order to walk the way we should, to have our sins forgiven us, and to strengthen us as He conforms us to the image of the Son.

The main differences aren’t faith*** vs.*** works, but how it all adds up and interacts.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So, I am still fuzzy on the Catholic doctrine on salvation. The Protestant doctrine that I am all too familiar with, is as follows. You’re saved. You go to heaven. There’s no discouragement to do bad, or encouragement to do good other than that bad stuff is bad and good stuff is good, If you catch my drift.

So, how would I, once I have converted and everything, go to heaven? The term “good works” was tossed around alot by other protestants. My current understanding is, you get saved, and then you repent for your sins if you commit them (mortal especially) and if you die in a state of grace (no mortal sins?) You either go straight to heaven if you have no venal sins, or go to Purgatory to atone for your venial sins. Is this correct? Am I missing anything?

Another thing I’ve worried about a lot, is whether I am saved or not. I’m not sure if I am saved. I’ve been baptized. I feel like I’m not saved sometimes , though. I do believe. I prayed the prayers and everything. I do have doubts, now and then. Especially when I go to these Baptist churches, the pastor makes me feel as though I’m not saved 99% of the time. Any help with this would be extremely appreciated.

I’m sorry for all the questions as of late, by the way. I don’t have a priest or anyone to talk to about any of this stuff. Again, thank you, and sorry for all the questions.

See this thread, especially post #23.

 

[hu324b]

My belief

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior
My hope is in Jesus Christ that I am redeemed
I believe sanctification is an ongoing process - not instant when I say Jesus is my Lord and Savior
But with fear and trembling I am working out my salvation. My faith cannot be stagnated and must grow