Going to hell for leaving the Catholic church

[eucharisteo]

I hate to be sarcastic to fellow Catholics because most of the time I agree with them.

I just thought we need to give some crediblity to the Protestants and not saying thing if it is not there. I could be wrong, but even a consevative figure like 20 - 30 thousands are way too many; and they will tell us the figure is derived by the method we categorize them. Then they can say that there are even many ‘denominations’ in Catholicism if one applies the same method of counting.

There is no need to mentioned figure like 20 or 30 thousands denoms in Protestantism as this is not honestly true. But we are right if we want to demonstrate divisions - they are there. Even if they are 10 denominations, they are still ways too many. Didn’t the Lord says we are one and there is only One True Church?

And no, I did not get any figure other than a way of speaking.

The problem with your assessment is that it simply lacks credibility. Having been in a Protestant “denomination” for 18 years, we saw many divisions within each congregation. And by the fact that each claims to be independent with common ground is enough to know that they emphasis different things. I remember one man, retired preacher, telling that listening to our radios is deeply offensive to God. I’ve heard many crazy things pushed by many of the different congregations we kept jumping between trying to find the one that felt like home. Never could find it. Instead we became more and more “liberal” over time which ultimately led us to realize very important facts like “where did we get the bible” and all the examples of the ECF.

And then again, I see your point and believe it is a valid observation.

 

[KC91]

Could you tell me how you accepted the savior into your life please, and when did this happen. Thanks, in Christian love, Ralph

I accept him into my life by praying to him.

I was a Catholic for many years, so I know all of your “Catholic arguments reputing Protestant progagnda”. I found the Catholic arguments to be totally unconvincing…

Just a reminder – one does not need the Catholic Church in order to be saved. Salvation is through Christ. John 14:6 says this: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” The Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on salvation. To suggest otherwise would be “Catholic propaganda”.

Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of Christ’s teaching, sorry.

None of this has anything to do with leaving the Catholic Church. You have simply given the typical Catholic rhetoric. The Catholic Church is never mentioned in scripture; and in fact, you will not find a sacramental system or papal infallibility in scripture. In short, the Catholic Church does not resemble the New Testament Church. Apparently you have been well indoctrinated to believe otherwise.

One - United, as Christ wanted
Holy - duh!
Roman - St. Peter and Paul were martryed in Rome, and St. Paul made the Church Roman, and St. Paul is in the Bible
Catholic - Universal, all can be saved if they accept Christ, as Christ wanted
Apostolic - Succesion from the 12 Apostles of the Bible
Church - duh!

Even a Athiest-Communist Protestant-Sympathiser I debated with conceded that the Catholic Church was the legal continuation of the Church founded by Christ, although he falsely claimed that it wasn’t really Christian any more, which is false Protestant propaganda.

KC, can you please provide a Church statement saying fully knowledgable practicing Catholics who later come to a different belief are going to hell. You mentioned you are pretty sure Luther is in hell. And you suggest any Catholic who does not remain fully practicing faces the same fate. I posted a quote from Lumen Gentium, “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.” But poster Roman Catholic says it only applies if someone knows or STILL knows but refuses to enter or remain. If someone no longer still believes, how does “could not be saved” apply to them?

The Catechism states that Catholics who do not attend mass on Sundays, etc commit mortal sin and if one dies in a state of mortal sin they go to hell. Although of course if just before the non practising Catholic dies he genuinely repents in confession and receives the last rites he can go to heaven, although he will have to spend quite a while in purgatory.

Luther in hell? Renaissance Popes stated that Luther was inspired by the anti-Christ. Ok, it was the Middle Ages with wartime propaganda, but the division of the Church was not Christ’s plan, and so it is possible that the Devil inspired Luther.

Then somebody needs to tell some of the Protestant’s in my life. They think that because I go to the Catholic Church that I am not “saved”. They pretty much think I’m going to hell for GOING to the Catholic Church.

To avoid being upset it is advisable to keep the number of non-Catholic aquintances to the bare minimum neccesary for life and jobs, etc. This has served me well and since I have a social sphere that is almost exclusively Catholic I have never had doubts that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and never thought of leaving the Church.

 

[KC91]

Oh and ironically since some Protestants use and focus on scripture so much in their attempts to refute the argument that Catholics who leave the Church despite knowing it is the Church of Christ, in many ways it becomes a form of idolatry, one that may be called ‘scriptolatry’. Funny how when some Protestants attack alledged Catholic idolatries (which they are not) they are guilty of idolatry themselves.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

How can constant reflection, analysis, and devotion to internalizing and loving Scripture idolatry? Christ’s Word is directly spoken to us in only one place–the New Testament. Paul speaks the words of life and hope, justification, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in Scripture. Jesus Himself quotes the Scriptures constantly. How can one read too much Scripture and make it an idol? An idol is something one puts in place of God, where the thing created replaces the sublime and Holy Creator Himself. How does one worship the Scriptures over God when they are indeed Him speaking directly to us? A statue represents something else, is inanimate and not alive. The Scriptures are alive indeed, replacing nothing? I don’t understand your analogy, KC?

Oh and ironically since some Protestants use and focus on scripture so much in their attempts to refute the argument that Catholics who leave the Church despite knowing it is the Church of Christ, in many ways it becomes a form of idolatry, one that may be called ‘scriptolatry’. Funny how when some Protestants attack alledged Catholic idolatries (which they are not) they are guilty of idolatry themselves.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree that division is a grievous thing. The Lord calls us to “all be One.” There were divisions right off the bat we are told by Paul. And it wasn’t long until the Oriental Orthodox, the Coptics, etc. were already splintered. We see the great Tertullian bolt for Montanism, Gnostics, Armenian monophosytes, boy you name it. Christianity hasn’t had much unity if the truth be told. And in 1054 we see the lulu of all divorces. No argument from me, it’s a mess.

I hate to be sarcastic to fellow Catholics because most of the time I agree with them.

I just thought we need to give some crediblity to the Protestants and not saying thing if it is not there. I could be wrong, but even a consevative figure like 20 - 30 thousands are way too many; and they will tell us the figure is derived by the method we categorize them. Then they can say that there are even many ‘denominations’ in Catholicism if one applies the same method of counting.

There is no need to mentioned figure like 20 or 30 thousands denoms in Protestantism as this is not honestly true. But we are right if we want to demonstrate divisions - they are there. Even if they are 10 denominations, they are still ways too many. Didn’t the Lord says we are one and there is only One True Church?

And no, I did not get any figure other than a way of speaking.

 

[KC91]

There is a limit where too much is too much, and when genuine interest and devotion to scripture becomes worship of it. Some protestants have no life outside of scripture, simply idolising a book.

About being alive, it is paper just as a statue is stone/plastic.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But could we do without the statue and be Christians or could we do without Scripture and be Christians?

A statue does nothing. The Bible is the Word of God. Huge difference in my mind. I don’t hear Jesus’s words in a hunk of plaster. I do in the NT. I don’t know about the Eucharist from an image, I do from the Last Supper and Paul and the Bread of Life discourse. Just because Protestants cling to Scripture and use it to know God, I’m just not buying that it’s akin to idolatry. If that’s the case, then they could say Catholics are treating the papacy as an idol because Catholics cling to and rely upon the pope for all interpretation, leadership, understanding, and guidance. By that definition of idolatry, popes are idols for Catholics, the Bible an idol for Protestants.

As I said, my understanding of idolatry is that anything one uses to “replace” God with a lesser being or a lesser thing is idolatry. Just as Catholics obviously don’t replace God with the Holy Father, Protestants don’t replace God with the Bible. Both are believed by their respective camps to compliment one another. Just my two cents, or ten

There is a limit where too much is too much, and when genuine interest and devotion to scripture becomes worship of it. Some protestants have no life outside of scripture, simply idolising a book.

About being alive, it is paper just as a statue is stone/plastic.

 

[Reuben_J]

The problem with your assessment is that it simply lacks credibility. Having been in a Protestant “denomination” for 18 years, we saw many divisions within each congregation. And by the fact that each claims to be independent with common ground is enough to know that they emphasis different things. I remember one man, retired preacher, telling that listening to our radios is deeply offensive to God. I’ve heard many crazy things pushed by many of the different congregations we kept jumping between trying to find the one that felt like home. Never could find it. Instead we became more and more “liberal” over time which ultimately led us to realize very important facts like “where did we get the bible” and all the examples of the ECF.

And then again, I see your point and believe it is a valid observation.

I take it from you since you are ex-Protestant.

I heard their argument that the differences are not denominations. Then they mention in some cases it’s no less different than when Catholics disagree on certain doctrine and yet still Catholics. My personal take is that I agree with you and with other Catholics who say that we cannot compare denominations with Catholics who personally disagree with some Catholic doctrines. These Catholics do not leave the Church while the Protestants counterparts leave their denominations and start new ones.

Nevertheless they are adamant that figures like 30,000 are very much inflated. By that they already admitted the splintering in Protestantism.

If you are sure there are actually 45000 Protestant denominations (the figure quoted by the poster I commented on), then by all means go ahead and say so. You have to provide data and evidence though.

The reason why I personally do not go along this line of argument is because I am not sure about that figure and so far none that I can see have come up with a respectable data. And then you hear denial by Protestants. But ultimately, does it make any difference? None whatsoever. They are splintered; 10 are too many and we know there are more than ten. So what else is there to say except that there are divisions among them.

I wish I could have the actual figure and settle this once and for all.

 

[Cinette]

I was a Catholic for many years, so I know all of your “Catholic arguments reputing Protestant progagnda”. I found the Catholic arguments to be totally unconvincing…

Just a reminder – one does not need the Catholic Church in order to be saved. Salvation is through Christ. John 14:6 says this: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” The Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on salvation. To suggest otherwise would be “Catholic propaganda”.

*I came back to the Catholic Church after an absence of 27 years. I find the Catnholic arguement pretty convincing and I would not be without the Sacraments for anything - I now receive the Eucharist every day.

I also believe that salvation can be achieved outside the Catholic Church. It can also be achieved by atheists and Muslims (long story). However, in the Catholic Church we have the sacraments through which we receive many graces. I find the Catholic Church tremendously exciting, beautiful and overwhelming and the full truth. It is my “daily bread”.

Cinette*

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

No one is saved because of the church they belong to. One is saved because of Christ.

**Romans 10:9-11:

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, '“anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”**

Trust in the Lord. He is sufficient!

God Bless!

Does it matter then what one believes so long as they confess with their mouth that Christ is Lord? If I confess with my mouth that Christ is Lord yet I believe that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, does it matter? If I confess with my mouth that Christ is Lord does it matter if I believe in the, “sacramental system” as established by Christ? If I confess with my mouth that Christ is Lord does it matter if I believe in Papal infallibility?

God bless

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I was a Catholic for many years, so I know all of your “Catholic arguments reputing Protestant progagnda”. I found the Catholic arguments to be totally unconvincing…

Just a reminder – one does not need the Catholic Church in order to be saved. Salvation is through Christ. John 14:6 says this: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Hi Priscilla Ann; Do you pretend to know everything the Catholic Church teaches? I know I don’t and I have been Catholic all my life. I do know that if one can know everything the Catholic church teaches and then leaves or protests her teachings or reject them. Then this person is definitely going to “Hell”.

Why? glad you asked? You know God promised us a Kingdom? but all we got was the Catholic church since pentecost going on 2000 years. The Apostles taught and the scriptures teach that the Church is the body of Christ. The bible teaches that the Catholic (universal) Church is fully divine and fully human.

But most importantly the bible specifically teaches that the Catholic church is the Pillar and foundation of “TRUTH” (see 1Timothy 3:15) . Now we know no one can have Truth without the true presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity.

So if the Catholic church is the body of Christ, fully human and fully divine and is the Pillar and foundation of “TRUTH” and the Catholic Church has practiced her faith from following Jesus commandament in regards to his True presence body,blood, soul and divinity in his Eucharist thereby possessing “TRUTH” which is the true presence of Jesus in the Catholic Church.

So now understanding these biblical Truth’s in regards to the Catholic church and one leaves the foundation and pillar of Truth, the body of Christ, the true presence of Jesus Christ and to depart from his fully human nature in the Church and his full divinity in the person of the Holy Spirit. Then one can definitely go to “Hell” for leaving the Catholic Church.

good news is, I have never come across anyone who learned everything the Catholic Church teaches and leave her. I have learned of many who think they know what the Catholic church is? and teaches and have walked away from the Catholic church misinformed or mistaken from her teachings. I don’t believe these are qualifed for “Hell”, due to ingnorance.

Peace be with you

p.s if you need all the scriptures to these biblical Truth’s as I have introduced them, please give notice:thumbsup:

 

[Orleans_Attny]

Oh and ironically since some Protestants use and focus on scripture so much in their attempts to refute the argument that Catholics who leave the Church despite knowing it is the Church of Christ, in many ways it becomes a form of idolatry, one that may be called ‘scriptolatry’. Funny how when some Protestants attack alledged Catholic idolatries (which they are not) they are guilty of idolatry themselves.

I’m truly puzzled by this comment. Especially in light of

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965

CHAPTER VI

SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

**21. The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God’s word and of Christ’s body. **She has always maintained them, and continues to do so, together with sacred tradition, as the supreme rule of faith, since, as inspired by God and committed once and for all to writing, they impart the word of God Himself without change, and make the voice of the Holy Spirit resound in the words of the prophets and Apostles. Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them; and the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life. Consequently these words are perfectly applicable to Sacred Scripture: “For the word of God is living and active” (Heb. 4:12) and “it has power to build you up and give you your heritage among all those who are sanctified” (Acts 20:32; see 1 Thess. 2:13).

Let’s focus on the first sentence. I find it difficult to believe that there is any level of devotion to the words of the Holy Spirit that can properly be called idolatry.

Pax,
OA

 

[fkjuliano]

Re: post #189

Here is the problem with the view expressed in that post, fkjuliano:

For a Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church for another that the Catholic Church says is validly apostolic and maintains valid and effective sacraments, why should it be that they are condemned to hell simply for having once been in communion with Rome? It is not my fault that the Catholic Church remains out of communion with the Orthodox churches, or for that matter that the Orthodox churches remain out of communion with the Catholic Church. I and everyone else here was born into a world of schism. At one point I made a choice to join the Catholic Church. Honestly, I can say if I was “invincibly ignorant” of anything, it would be the Orthodox faith. Since resolving to learn more about it, I have come to the realization that I probably find myself currently on the wrong side of the schism of 1054. Others looking for the true faith have come to the Orthodox Church (or to a church in the Roman communion) after careful deliberation between the claims of the CC and the OC. Others have merely taken one extra step along the way. Who can say that they’re “invincibly ignorant”?

It just seems unwise to me to say on one hand “yes, the Orthodox Church is valid” and on the other hand tell Catholics who find themselves more in line with Orthodox theology and practice that they are damned to hell for going there. I am not aware of any unambiguous teaching on this, however, and as CMatt25 observes, it is possible to draw many different conclusions from what is out there.

Regardless of anything else, neither you (nor anyone) should join an Eastern Orthodox church because they are schismatic bodies, and Jesus Christ clearly and deliberately expressed His desire for His Church to be one, to do so is to put oneself in opposition to Him. And since scripture also makes clear that the Church originally headed by Saint Peter is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the schismatic churches are wrong by definition in anything in which they differ from the Catholic Church. Aesthetically pleasing liturgy and essentially correct theology only make the Orthodox churches beautiful corpses, for they cut themselves off from the Body of Christ.

Also, you should not conflate Eastern Catholicism with the schismatics. It only takes “one extra step” to fall into an abyss, and that is the step the schismatics have taken.

And why did they take that step in 1054? The “filioque” controversy really seems a preposterous reason to cleave the Body of Christ, unless understood as something that was motivated by the excessive pride of the “Second Rome” of the Byzantine Empire in relation to the old Rome of the Popes.

Even if we lay aside Scripture and history for the moment, it seems obvious that, as a worldwide institution whose more than one billion adherents are of every race and nationality, the Catholic Church has an infinitely better claim to be the Church Jesus Christ founded to save all of mankind than any one of the little ethnic enclaves that compose Eastern Orthodoxy.

I honestly do not understand what you see in the Orthodox churches that you do not see in Catholicism. Perhaps as a convert to Catholicism who is now considering yet another conversion, you are seeking perfection. But that is a fool’s errand. You will not find perfection in any institution formed of human beings. In the Catholic Church, however, at least we have the assurance that the founder of our Faith is indeed perfect, even if we, His followers, never will be, and that He and God the Father will ever grace our Holy Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[fkjuliano]

No one is saved because of the church they belong to. One is saved because of Christ.

**Romans 10:9-11:

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, '“anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”**

Trust in the Lord. He is sufficient!

God Bless!

Since you obviously believe in Jesus Christ, you should heed this passage:

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 16:18-19

This could not be more clear: Jesus Christ gave the keys of Heaven to the Church by entrusting them to Peter, the first Pope. Since you say we should trust Jesus Christ, then you should trust that He made the right decision in founding one universal Church for all mankind and in giving her the authority to loose and bind in Heaven. If you really trust Jesus Christ, and not some Protestant pastor, then repent of your error and return to His Church.

 

[fkjuliano]

Brother if you totally give your life to Christ you will not got to hell. It doesn’t matter what someone tells you. What matters is what the Word of God says about salvation.

If you totally gave your life to Christ, you would not want to leave the Church He founded, to which He gave the keys of Heaven. In fact, you would want to enter that Church if you were outside.

Why do Protestants call themselves “Bible Christians” when it seems not one has ever read the Gospel of Matthew?

 

[Answersplease]

No one is saved because of the church they belong to. One is saved because of Christ.

**Romans 10:9-11:

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, '“anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”**

Trust in the Lord. He is sufficient!

God Bless!

Answersplease:

That is YOUR rhetoric.

MY ANSWER: Well lets all just copy down that ONE VERSE and throw the rest of The Holy Bible AWAY! (sarcasm)

Jesus told His followers “He who rejects you, rejects Me.”

Luke 10:16

“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

I could post other verses but that isn’t going to get through to you. You’ve been fully “indoctrinated” and now The Holy Spirit can enlighten you but people cannot.

You say that the Catholics have been too well indoctrinated, the same could be said of you and even more so because there are MORE verses that support the Catholic side AND the Catholic Church is one of the FEW churches that takes the WHOLE BIBLE into account and HARMONIZES EACH VERSE with all the other VERSES.

They don’t just take one verse and say “Well this verse is it, that’s ALL you need. Lets just read the REST of The Holy Bible JUST FOR FUN, but we could really just throw ALL these other verses away, because we found the ONE VERSE that we REALLY NEED.” (sarcasm)

---

Here is a really good test for ANY PERSON or CHURCH:

Is The Truth Jesus Christ?

Is ALL SCRIPTURE in the ENTIRE Holy Bible worthy for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness? (2 Timothy 3:16)

Does the word of God say that homosexuality is a sin?

Does the word of God say that abortion is murder?

Does the word of God say that sinners will go to hell?

How many ways are there to God?

Are there many different versions of Jesus Christ?

Can you disagree with Jesus Christ and still go to heaven?

Depending on your answers, I can make an educated guess as to whether or not you will end up in hell.

I won’t say you will go to hell for sure, because only God can do that.

 

[KC91]

As Jesus Christ have St. Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, I doubt St. Peter will open the gates of the kingdom of heaven to those who once accepted but later denied the authority of his succesors.

The Catholic Church has much more authority and right to predict who is going to hell or not also because it is more Christ centered than Protestantism. Catholics regards Jesus as god, while if you ask a Protestant you are likely to receive the reply ‘I believe he is the son of God’, and the Church has Christ’s body in the eucharist which he asked us to eat for our salvation, while the Protestants don’t.

 

[andrewv33]

its not a clause

people who say that going to hell is a threat are misinformed

the Church is merely telling you of the consequences of your action. its like, if a child plays with a lit candle and his dad tells him, “don’t play with the candle or else you will get burned.” is that a threat? if the child continues to play with the candle and does indeed get burned, is it a punishment from the dad? or is the dad merely stating a fact that playing with candles can lead you to get burned?

same with the Church. going to hell is not a threat. the Church doesn’t have any power to send you to hell anyway. only a person can choose to go to hell by abandoning God through sin

So this belief of going to hell, or if its theoretical, or what ever the explanation.
Where in the bible does it says that if one leaves the church (catholic or another) will be in danger.
I tend to see that what a mortal man (who is born a sinner) says does not have very much validity unless that view or comment is backed by biblical scripture! If this is not done then it cannot be the view of God but of man!
Me personally i am very afraid and have supreme respect on what it says in the bible…So as far as i see unless one can back the statement from the bible then any belief that does not exist or is endorsed by the bible which IS THE WORD of GOD that it has no validity…

 

[KC91]

So this belief of going to hell, or if its theoretical, or what ever the explanation.
Where in the bible does it says that if one leaves the church (catholic or another) will be in danger.
I tend to see that what a mortal man (who is born a sinner) says does not have very much validity unless that view or comment is backed by biblical scripture! If this is not done then it cannot be the view of God but of man!
Me personally i am very afraid and have supreme respect on what it says in the bible…So as far as i see unless one can back the statement from the bible then any belief that does not exist or is endorsed by the bible which IS THE WORD of GOD that it has no validity…

Well Saint Paul was a mortal man and yet he was a writer of scripture. So maybe scripture is not what you think it is?

 

[Stylites]

as stated, this is a possibly deliberate mis-statement of Church teaching, there is no such statement in the catechism, and no the Church sends no one to hell. Either does God. Hell is a free will choice made at the moment of death and judgement, in full knowledge, granted at that time, and with full free will consent.

Worth repeating, except to correct a word: Neither does God ever send anyone to hell.

.