Going vegetarian while married?

[bitterhope]

The basic problem with chickens is that chickens are mean to each other.

It really takes a cruel, cruel chicken farm to be meaner than what chickens do of their own accord, unless humans stop 'em.

This is somewhat true when you hit overcrowded conditions like the commercial farms have. Free range hens if not overcrowded don’t fight or hen peck unless you introduce a rooster, and usually not even then. The rooster is more likely going to be a problem. We did have one mean little red hen but we solved the problem with a stew pot.

Egg farms don’t have roosters. The hens are very crowded, even cage free hens. And still the chickens tend to be better off than turkeys. We have a few types of turkeys now and they think they are lap dogs. They love attention and follow the kids around when they are out playing. But we have them all free range–chickens, turkeys, ducks and geese. The tom turkeys will puff up but they don’t fight because they have plenty of room and hens. Same with the roosters. Problem is, no farm can raise animals like this and make enough money to support themselves. We raise ours because we eat 18-24 eggs a day at my house, the kids are learning responsibility, I’m home to do it, and we are finally in an area where it’s possible. Growing up we always had chickens, rabbits, hogs and cattle so I missed it all the years we were on Army posts. For now we just have poultry and rabbits. Many cities are now allowing back yard hens, and I recommend doing that if possible for many reasons. Its great for kids, the eggs are healthier and the hens are much better cared for than in egg farms. Most hens will lay an egg a day or every other day so most families don’t need many hens for a decent supply. Much of their food is bugs if they are able to free range. Many coops and runs (which counts as free range) can be moved to cut down on clean up. Cage free simply means not in a single hen box. They are still cooped 24/7 usually.

 

[pensmama87]

This is somewhat true when you hit overcrowded conditions like the commercial farms have. Free range hens if not overcrowded don’t fight or hen peck unless you introduce a rooster, and usually not even then. The rooster is more likely going to be a problem. We did have one mean little red hen but we solved the problem with a stew pot.

Egg farms don’t have roosters. The hens are very crowded, even cage free hens. And still the chickens tend to be better off than turkeys. We have a few types of turkeys now and they think they are lap dogs. They love attention and follow the kids around when they are out playing. But we have them all free range–chickens, turkeys, ducks and geese. The tom turkeys will puff up but they don’t fight because they have plenty of room and hens. Same with the roosters. Problem is, no farm can raise animals like this and make enough money to support themselves. We raise ours because we eat 18-24 eggs a day at my house, the kids are learning responsibility, I’m home to do it, and we are finally in an area where it’s possible. Growing up we always had chickens, rabbits, hogs and cattle so I missed it all the years we were on Army posts. For now we just have poultry and rabbits. Many cities are now allowing back yard hens, and I recommend doing that if possible for many reasons. Its great for kids, the eggs are healthier and the hens are much better cared for than in egg farms. Most hens will lay an egg a day or every other day so most families don’t need many hens for a decent supply. Much of their food is bugs if they are able to free range. Many coops and runs (which counts as free range) can be moved to cut down on clean up. Cage free simply means not in a single hen box. They are still cooped 24/7 usually.

I have wanted to have chickens for a while; sometime I may have to pick your brain about how to get started! We have a large enough fenced yard, but unfortunately we do have predators, so they’d likely need more protection. I’m also not sure what I would do with them over the winter.

DH is more hesitant, so at the moment we just expand our garden a bit every year. But sometime I’ll convince him!

(I dunno why I can’t delete this confused guy. My phone browser treats it like an image. Weird.)

 

[UbiCaritas]

Here’s something from a wife’s perspective. (Not the wife of the OP, obviously!)

My DH is a really, really picky eater. I’ve posted about this before, and won’t bore you all with every detail again. Suffice to say that a combination of growing up in a (by my standards) wealthy home with a dad who was also somewhat picky and a crazy metabolism (he eats almost nothing but junk food, but remains clinically underweight) has led to his eating very little that isn’t either white carbs or expensive cuts of meat. A brief list of things he generally won’t eat are chicken, a fair number of vegetables, many cheeses, especially if in some sort of sauce, and legumes, as well as anything with a “chewy” texture.

I did not know this when we got married. We dated long-distance, which meant that while dating, we ate out a lot, and if/when I cooked, I’d cook something he’d specifically request.

When I was single, my grocery budget was about $30/week. Now, married and with a kid (who admittedly inflates the grocery bill by attempting daily to eat her weight in fruit), I’m doing rather well to pull it in under $150.

At the same time, I have a very different metabolism from DH. I can gain weight by thinking the words “ice cream.”

I used to love cooking. Now it’s a source of massive stress for me, and I hate it. “Will the texture of this dish be just right so that DH will eat it, or will he eat three bites, throw the rest away, and then eat chips all evening?” “If I serve pasta twice in one week, will he eat it the second time?” “After three years of marriage, I’ve discovered about 10 meals he’ll consistently eat, but if I serve them too close in succession, he won’t eat, wasting food and an hour of meal prep. Did I serve X in the last week?” And I have to balance this with DD’s needs; she’s already showing signs of being a picky eater, and that combined with her adoration of Daddy means that if she sees him not eating something, she’ll refuse to eat it, too, so I need to try to find things he’ll eat so that she’ll eat. (Mind you, when she refuses to eat dinner, she goes to bed hungry; I’m not a short-order cook.)

Much of the time, I don’t even eat what I make because it’s just too caloric or fatty: think pasta smothered in a heavy cream sauce, sandwiches with a fried filling, that sort of thing. So I end up making two meals–a salad, bowl of soup, or fruit and cheese for me, and the main course for DH and DD.

This sort of thing can cause the cook a ridiculous amount of stress and resentment, and I’m a SAHM. If I worked out of the house (I have no idea which your wife does) and my husband tried something like this? I’d be demanding counseling ASAP, and probably not cooking dinner for anyone except me and any kids until this was resolved.

 

[pensmama87]

Ubi, you are a patient woman and loving wife.

(It’s a good thing your husband is married to you and not me. )

 

[Xantippe]

Ubi, you are a patient woman and loving wife.

(It’s a good thing your husband is married to you and not me. )

Yeah.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Ubi, you are a patient woman and loving wife.

(It’s a good thing your husband is married to you and not me. )

You’re very kind.

The eating thing is something that I wish had come up in premarital stuff, but I don’t really see in retrospect how it could have. I mean, sure, he mentioned some likes and dislikes foodwise, but who doesn’t have those? I certainly do! It’s just one of those things you don’t really find out unless and until you live in close proximity with a person. And generally speaking, he’s a good husband and father and provider, so while this is a pretty big thorn in this particular marriage, I know how lucky I am that it’s one of the bigger ones. I do predict, however, OP, that at some point it is going to be the source of a major blowup (it’s the kind of thing that makes for a very good “last straw,” coming as it inevitably does at dinnertime), and thus I’d suggest you tread very carefully in this matter.

For context, the first time I really lost it with DH was over exactly this. DD was about three months old, and in a rather fussy stage. I was tired and dealing with a nasty case of PPD. I managed to pull together a very nice dinner: steak fajitas. I was darn proud of myself. I figured out how to roast the corn and peppers for maximum flavor, marinated the steak all day before grilling it, had the tortillas heated and ready to go…the works. I sat down to eat with DH, DD in her rock-and-play next to me. Two (delicious) bites in, and DD was screaming again. Four bites in, and DH complained that the meat wasn’t cut up small enough and was too chewy. At which point I burst into tears, left the room for some time, screaming baby and all, and upon my return, barely spoke to him all evening. And while he did apologize later on, and I forgave him, that moment still makes me want to cry just thinking about it. When you’ve had a really long day and the person who’s supposed to be helping you carry a burden is actively grabbing rocks from the side of the road and tossing them in your backpack, that will mess with your marriage. I guarantee it.

 

[Trident_H]

Very informative answers, thanks all.

I do not have a history of snap judgements, quite the opposite. I trend towards “plodding” in my decision making.

I’m not averse to cooking, and we do have kids. I have no desire to impose my personal dietary decisions on them.

We do have options for “local” meat and dairy, but the farmers market is pretty bare this time of year. I could also keep chickens myself if I get the necessary permit (yay government!).

The primary driver for this was the horrific treatment of animals in our factory “farms”, but after thinking about it for months (that plodding again), I’m kind of at a “why eat animals at all?” juncture in my thought processes.

Ok. I have a question here and I mean maybe you’ve got an answer and maybe you don’t. But what I want to know is “why not eat animals?”

I mean I don’t really get the pause here. Because of 3 things.

1. If you don’t eat them someone or something else will.
2. If no one eats animals then they just won’t be bred so they won’t be alive anyway.
3. Everything dies. Why not eat it right after?

Maybe I’m missing something?

 

[EasterJoy]

If it is the conditions of the animal that concern you, consider looking for local farmers who raise animals for local consumption. We have a farmer’s co-op in our area, for example, that allows customers to order meat by the quarter, half, or whole cow. They also sell poultry and pigs. The farm sees to I that the animal is humanely slaughtered and sent to a butcher to be cut up. Using this as your solution addresses your concern without going entirely vegetarian.

As for your main problem, talk to your wife about it and work something out, just like everything else.

 

[pensmama87]

You’re very kind.

The eating thing is something that I wish had come up in premarital stuff, but I don’t really see in retrospect how it could have. I mean, sure, he mentioned some likes and dislikes foodwise, but who doesn’t have those? I certainly do! It’s just one of those things you don’t really find out unless and until you live in close proximity with a person. And generally speaking, he’s a good husband and father and provider, so while this is a pretty big thorn in this particular marriage, I know how lucky I am that it’s one of the bigger ones. I do predict, however, OP, that at some point it is going to be the source of a major blowup (it’s the kind of thing that makes for a very good “last straw,” coming as it inevitably does at dinnertime), and thus I’d suggest you tread very carefully in this matter.

For context, the first time I really lost it with DH was over exactly this. DD was about three months old, and in a rather fussy stage. I was tired and dealing with a nasty case of PPD. I managed to pull together a very nice dinner: steak fajitas. I was darn proud of myself. I figured out how to roast the corn and peppers for maximum flavor, marinated the steak all day before grilling it, had the tortillas heated and ready to go…the works. I sat down to eat with DH, DD in her rock-and-play next to me. Two (delicious) bites in, and DD was screaming again. Four bites in, and DH complained that the meat wasn’t cut up small enough and was too chewy. At which point I burst into tears, left the room for some time, screaming baby and all, and upon my return, barely spoke to him all evening. And while he did apologize later on, and I forgave him, that moment still makes me want to cry just thinking about it. When you’ve had a really long day and the person who’s supposed to be helping you carry a burden is actively grabbing rocks from the side of the road and tossing them in your backpack, that will mess with your marriage. I guarantee it.

My mother, brother, and sister are like your husband. My mom did all the meal prep growing up so no big deal, but I do wonder about my sister-in-law and brother, especially now that they have a baby.

My husband and I talked food a lot before we married, but food was a huge part of his family culture and once he realized my experiences were very limited but I was open to learning more, he felt it his mission to teach me about what I’d missed. (A few items: pickles, steak, any kind of pepper, eggplant, mushrooms, any fish not in the shape of a stick…)

 

[Geist]

Ok. I have a question here and I mean maybe you’ve got an answer and maybe you don’t. But what I want to know is “why not eat animals?”

I mean I don’t really get the pause here. Because of 3 things.

1. If you don’t eat them someone or something else will.
2. If no one eats animals then they just won’t be bred so they won’t be alive anyway.
3. Everything dies. Why not eat it right after?

Maybe I’m missing something?

It seems unnecessary for a compassion and ecological standpoint.

As for Ubi Caritas, I’ll eat anything put in front of me; why I need to lose 15 pounds.

 

[EasterJoy]

Ok. I have a question here and I mean maybe you’ve got an answer and maybe you don’t. But what I want to know is “why not eat animals?”

I mean I don’t really get the pause here. Because of 3 things.

1. If you don’t eat them someone or something else will.
2. If no one eats animals then they just won’t be bred so they won’t be alive anyway.
3. Everything dies. Why not eat it right after?

Maybe I’m missing something?

Not quite. When meat won’t sell if it raised a certain way, then that much less will be raised that way.

To refuse to buy something that offends your conscience is voting with your wallet. It is a very old way to influence what does and doesn’t come to market.

 

[Trident_H]

Not quite. When meat won’t sell if it raised a certain way, then that much less will be raised that way.

To refuse to buy something that offends your conscience is voting with your wallet. It is a very old way to influence what does and doesn’t come to market.

Sorry EJ. I guess I wasn’t clear. I must make more effort on that. What I was asking was why not eat animals? We can get to how they’re being raised at some other point. I mean I don’t really know much about that. All I’m wondering was why the OP said that thinking of how they were raised in some situations led him to wonder why he should eat animals at all. I was after that last bit of thinking. Why eat them at all. Versus why not eat them? With great big bites. And maybe some mustard.

I don’t know. Why not eat them? Assuming they’re raised a certain way.

 

[bitterhope]

It seems unnecessary for a compassion and ecological standpoint.

As for Ubi Caritas, I’ll eat anything put in front of me; why I need to lose 15 pounds.

I can understand your point and it’s a big part of why I prefer to raise my own. I realize not many people have that option and I only can do poultry at this point. We don’t hunt because we don’t keep guns at home. My boys do bow hunt occasionally with their uncles though. We often have deer for dinner throughout the year thanks to them and a few neighbors. I am all for harvesting my own meat for several reasons, but the main one being that we actually prefer to give the animals a good life, care for them, assure them we appreciate their gift to our family, and when it’s time for them to be eaten, we pray over them and talk to them. We again thank them for the gift of their life and we thank them for the nourishment they give us. This is how I was raised by my dad. He was a big believer in proper care of nature. Most of what we eat is bought commercially and I don’t have moral reservations there either. We are blessed to have such a plentiful and safe food supply in the US. I find it refreshing, though, that you are trying to follow your conscience without mandating everyone follow your line of thinking. If my husband decided to go vegetarian and was as respectful of me as you seem to be if your family, I would try to accommodate his preferences as best I could. Praying you all find a solution that works for the entire household.

 

[Trident_H]

It seems unnecessary for a compassion and ecological standpoint.

What’s compassionate about letting an animal get torn apart while alive by wolves instead?

How did ecology squiggle into it? I mean weren’t the great plains just filled chock full with bison at some point? I don’t know if we’ve got more cattle than that these days but I’d be willing to guess that the numbers probably aren’t that far apart.

Really this isn’t an argument that I’m having with you. I mean I don’t care if you eat meat or not. It’s just something that you’ve obviously just reasoned through. It’s something fresh in your mind. And here I am pretty much ignorant still. So I’m fishing for answers. I’m not a big meat eater myself so it wouldn’t really take much to get me to eye my salad a bit more. But first I just want to know if it’s worth having that much fewer fast-food options.

Hope you don’t mind the side questions.

 

[bitterhope]

I have wanted to have chickens for a while; sometime I may have to pick your brain about how to get started! We have a large enough fenced yard, but unfortunately we do have predators, so they’d likely need more protection. I’m also not sure what I would do with them over the winter.

DH is more hesitant, so at the moment we just expand our garden a bit every year. But sometime I’ll convince him!

(I dunno why I can’t delete this confused guy. My phone browser treats it like an image. Weird.)

Sure! Just PM me anything.

 

[EasterJoy]

Sorry EJ. I guess I wasn’t clear. I must make more effort on that. What I was asking was why not eat animals? We can get to how they’re being raised at some other point. I mean I don’t really know much about that. All I’m wondering was why the OP said that thinking of how they were raised in some situations led him to wonder why he should eat animals at all. I was after that last bit of thinking. Why eat them at all. Versus why not eat them? With great big bites. And maybe some mustard.

I don’t know. Why not eat them? Assuming they’re raised a certain way.

As far as I know, there isn’t a demonstrable reason to avoid eating meat raised in a humane way in temperate amounts. Intemperate meat consumption, particularly in concert with high levels of salt and at the expense of other nutritious foods, has been linked to several chronic disease conditions. As far as I know, though, there is no nutrition research that shows meat to be some kind of a poison.

 

[Geist]

What’s compassionate about letting an animal get torn apart while alive by wolves instead?

I am not a wolf, and can use my God given reason to acquire the same protein via legumes.

Plus wolves are not exactly in the best of shape these days. Most were killed to protect the profits of ranchers, so we’d have more meat.

I’m noticing a cycle here…

How did ecology squiggle into it? I mean weren’t the great plains just filled chock full with bison at some point? I don’t know if we’ve got more cattle than that these days but I’d be willing to guess that the numbers probably aren’t that far apart.

The great plains were indeed full of bison, but spread out over millions of acres and always moving.

Cramming animals into a tight space breeds disease and naturally results in massive quantities of fecal matter needing to be dealt with; often it finds it’s way into the local rivers from retention ponds and gives off hazardous fumes in the air.

Given the steady antibiotics and unnatural diet of the animals their waste makes terrible fertilizer so it can’t even really be used as manure for crops.

It’s just a mess.

 

[Trident_H]

I am not a wolf, and can use my God given reason to acquire the same protein via legumes.

Plus wolves are not exactly in the best of shape these days. Most were killed to protect the profits of ranchers, so we’d have more meat.

I’m noticing a cycle here…

The great plains were indeed full of bison, but spread out over millions of acres and always moving.

Cramming animals into a tight space breeds disease and naturally results in massive quantities of fecal matter needing to be dealt with; often it finds it’s way into the local rivers from retention ponds and gives off hazardous fumes in the air.

Given the steady antibiotics and unnatural diet of the animals their waste makes terrible fertilizer so it can’t even really be used as manure for crops.

It’s just a mess.

Ah Ok.

So if you were given a deer hunted in a humane way would you eat it? Just curious.

 

[lemongrass80]

Cooking two meals is not necessary.

She has a pork chop, mashed potatoes and green beans.

You eat the mashed potatoes and green beans, and add a piece of cheese on the side and/or a glass of milk. Voila.

On your nights to cook you make spaghetti with marinara, frittatas, etc.

Doesn’t have to be difficult.

 

[maryjk]

Cooking two meals is not necessary.

She has a pork chop, mashed potatoes and green beans.

You eat the mashed potatoes and green beans, and add a piece of cheese on the side and/or a glass of milk. Voila.

On your nights to cook you make spaghetti with marinara, frittatas, etc.

Doesn’t have to be difficult.

About 1/3 of my meals would be off of the menu.

No
Stews
Soups
Casseroles
Burgers (served with one of the following: salad, corn on the cob or french fries)
Hot dogs (generally chili cheese dogs)
and any meat that I serve with one side, for example, I make a copycat recipe for Alice Springs chicken and serve it with broccoli. I would imagine that my husband would be pretty hungry after eating steamed broccoli with a slice of cheese.