Golden Plates

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alterserver_07:
Only one account??? That is funny. There are so many accounts that make JS look bad it isn’t even funny. Man, one account. HA!😃
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Um, we’re talking about the Kinderhook plates, correct? Could you reference the other accounts that corroborate Clayton’s account?

Or, dude, were you just making another “profound” statement about Joseph Smith in general?
 
the fake plates were recorded to be the true ones by the leaders in the lds church. they were fooled by this man.

doesnt the US govt have this documented as to the circumsances and when this happened?
 
They certainly have plenty of information about how Mark Hoffman fooled the prophets in recent years.
 
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Casen:
Hmmmm, I wonder why they would choose to side with the single account that makes Joseph look bad?
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I think you and I were talking about JS in general, or at least it seems you were hinting that.
 
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papist1:
the fake plates were recorded to be the true ones by the leaders in the lds church. they were fooled by this man.

doesnt the US govt have this documented as to the circumsances and when this happened?
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I’m sorry, you lost me. Are we talking about the Kinderhook plates or something else.
 
Yeah, I agree with you on this. I think he thinks that Mark Hoffman had something to do with the Kinderhook plates. :confused: Hoffman was selling faked paper documents to the LDS leadership, in modern times.
 
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alterserver_07:
I think you and I were talking about JS in general, or at least it seems you were hinting that.
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No, I was refering specifically to the Kinderhood plates. Anyway, this thread is going nowhere…
 
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Jerusha:
Yeah, I agree with you on this. I think he thinks that Mark Hoffman had something to do with the Kinderhook plates. :confused: Hoffman was selling faked paper documents to the LDS leadership, in modern times.
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Jerusha,
I appreciate that you’ve defended me a few times here. Thanks!
 
I am talking about the plates that your heirarchy actually approved as authentic before the truth came out, even your prophet.
 
The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them “liars.” **

Smith produced most of the “translation” not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same “seer stone” he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.**
 
amen, the fact that all of this back paddling is done by mormon members when there is factual evidence of wrongdoing or lying done by the church and its inventors is hilarious.

just the fact of the anti black sentiment, and then the black friendly sentiment after the government threatened them is a great case in point.

now having blacks is okay on the surface, yet is a reluctant move that continues to leave them truly outsiders, especially to the older members of the invented religion.
 
Let alone their patronizing attitude towards American Indians, promising them “whiteness”, the “privilege” of loss of cultural identity through conversion. And their perversion of American Indian history, the egotism involved in trying to tell people who already KNOW who they are, that they are something else -Lamanites, nothing more than a euphemism for degenerate Jews.

LIES?? Of course Mormons are capable of lying. :eek: :banghead:
 
According to LDS teachings, Moroni (the angel who taught Joseph Smith) was the “gaurdian” of the plates. They were an abridgement of a “room full of records” that were supposedly kept by the nephite nation. Moroni’s Father (Mormon) was tasked with writing this abridgement (hence Book of Mormon) Moroni finished it after Mormon’s death. The original records were hidden in a cave that was at one time shown to Joseph (although it’s exact location and physical access to it was withheld). After Joseph translated the portion of the plates that he was allowed to (there was a portion that was sealed for now) Moroni took the plates back. (at one time during the translation Joseph supposedly was not obedient to the Lord and Moroni took them away temporarily). The plates, along with all of the other records from which they were written are supposedly under the hill Cumorah in a cave but the Lord keeps them hidden until his return when all will be revealed.
 
The three witnesses suspect JS could be God’s chosen prophet, a prophet who God will use to change the world. JS takes these witnesses (Whitmer, Cowdery and HArris) to the woods and, lo and behold, they see with their own eyes an angel and they hold these gold plates in their hands. A miracle beyond their wildest hopes and confirmation that JS is, in fact, God’s chosen prophet. Life changing, mind altering, undeniable proof that the Almighty is speaking through JS. And after some time passes these witnesses…align themselves to JS and follow him to the ends of the earth? No, they leave over doctrinal disagreements and start their own church or join the Methodists or whatever. This doesn’t add up at all. The actions of the ‘witnesses’ speak much louder than their words (‘testimony’).
 
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edmondhall:
The three witnesses suspect JS could be God’s chosen prophet, a prophet who God will use to change the world. JS takes these witnesses (Whitmer, Cowdery and HArris) to the woods and, lo and behold, they see with their own eyes an angel and they hold these gold plates in their hands. A miracle beyond their wildest hopes and confirmation that JS is, in fact, God’s chosen prophet. Life changing, mind altering, undeniable proof that the Almighty is speaking through JS. And after some time passes these witnesses…align themselves to JS and follow him to the ends of the earth? No, they leave over doctrinal disagreements and start their own church or join the Methodists or whatever. This doesn’t add up at all. The actions of the ‘witnesses’ speak much louder than their words (‘testimony’).
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Except that they continued to defend and repeat their testimonies for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that they were ridiculed and received no financial gain for them. Why would they do this? And the eight witnesses who physically handled the plates also repeated their testimonies to their deaths. Think about that for a minute. We have eleven people that said they physically saw the Gold Plates and NOT ONE of them ever denied their testimony!

If Joseph Smith was a fraud then how the heck did he pull that off?
 
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Casen:
Except that they continued to defend and repeat their testimonies for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that they were ridiculed and received no financial gain for them. Why would they do this? And the eight witnesses who physically handled the plates also repeated their testimonies to their deaths. Think about that for a minute. We have eleven people that said they physically saw the Gold Plates and NOT ONE of them ever denied their testimony!

If Joseph Smith was a fraud then how the heck did he pull that off?
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I don’t see it as quite that simple. These folks were ridiculed no matter what just for having been ivolved with the founding of Mormonism. Their hope may have been to later take over the leadership of the church. David Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, Hiram Page and afew others fit that category. Oliver Cowdery was in a really tough spot, He felt JS was philandering con man and when he could take no more and confronted him with this He was exed. He then seems to have tried to do his own thing and fell to new depths. These men all seemed to have had very questionable character and many did in fact attempt to profit from NOT denying the BoM because their primary targets were Mormons. Read David Whitmers address to all believers and William Laws last interview. They give an interesting point of view. Martin Harris gave testimony to the truth of the shakers after he had left Mormonism. I don’t see that he ever denied that either.
 
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majick275:
I don’t see it as quite that simple. These folks were ridiculed no matter what just for having been ivolved with the founding of Mormonism. Their hope may have been to later take over the leadership of the church. David Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, Hiram Page and afew others fit that category. Oliver Cowdery was in a really tough spot, He felt JS was philandering con man and when he could take no more and confronted him with this He was exed. He then seems to have tried to do his own thing and fell to new depths. These men all seemed to have had very questionable character and many did in fact attempt to profit from NOT denying the BoM because their primary targets were Mormons. Read David Whitmers address to all believers and William Laws last interview. They give an interesting point of view. Martin Harris gave testimony to the truth of the shakers after he had left Mormonism. I don’t see that he ever denied that either.
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You’ve stretched the facts quite a bit in this paragraph and you’re dead wrong about them having questionable character. But even if I accept your statement it doesn’t change the fact that 11 men ALL testified to having seen the plates and NOT ONE ever denied their testimony. How did Joseph pull that off?
 
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Casen:
You’ve stretched the facts quite a bit in this paragraph and you’re dead wrong about them having questionable character. But even if I accept your statement it doesn’t change the fact that 11 men ALL testified to having seen the plates and NOT ONE ever denied their testimony. How did Joseph pull that off?
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And an even greater number testified to the truth of David Koresh and never denied it. what does that show? How many testified of the koran? shall we look at the witnesses to the shaker book? (over 100 pages) ,that 11 men who were all either friends or relatives chose to stick to their story about founding a church is unremarkable to me. BTW what facts were stretched here? would you care to refute what JS said about the character of these men? After all Joseph Smith himself launched the greatest attacks on the character of these men. What did Joseph’s wife Emma think about all of this? did she remain true to the church? Many groups never deny the BoM but very STRONGLY deny the LDS church, so how does this establish truth? there is controversy between a number of churches regarding even what doctrine that JS taught. these groups say that he was a true prophet…they just don’t agree on what he prophesied.
 
Except that they continued to defend and repeat their testimonies for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that they were ridiculed and received no financial gain for them. Why would they do this?
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The point of my original post is that the ACTIONS of these individuals subsequent to their testimonies speak louder than their words.

Anyway, the costs (psychological, legal, temporal power etc.) of recanting may well have been greater than the costs of simply remaining silent.

If the point of the witnesses is to provide compelling evidence for the validity of JS, then surely JS could have arranged for objective disinterested parties to see for themselves? You want to talk about compelling witnesses–how about 70,000 at Fatima??
 
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