Good advice for engaged couples

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try simple keywords like “cohabitation” “marriage” and “divorce”
Interesting…I just typed in “proof the earth is flat” into google. I more meant, did you use just a search engine like MSN/Google, or dive deeper into a more trusted search, such as google scholar. No biggie.
This is a very basic thing that gets reported on enough that it’s hard not to trip over it in the media.
Interesting, I don’t believe I’ve ever tripped over it in the media before, and if I have, the media is one of the last places I trust reporting on studies.
These things are basic, and it’s tough to have a discussion when someone wants citations to fill holes in his basic background.
Personally, if someone makes a statistical claim (especially one I question the legitimacy of) I…like the poster above…would ask where your statistics are coming from. Especially if I were one who doesn’t think it’s as “cut-and-dry” as the claim makes it seem to be…

I don’t think it’s too much to ask, but I guess that’s me. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
 
Again, this is not about specific studies, but basic knowledge of the world around them that most have.

The academic studies on this receive coverage every couple of years. No, not media studies, but academic articles.

Having seen this is at about the same level of civic knowledge as knowing who your senators are . . .
 
Neither of these studies address the claim in the OP, that couples who themselves live together before their marriage to each other, have longer-lasting marriages.Is there a study that shows this?
Premarital cohabitation has consistently been found to be associated with increased risk for divorce and marital distress in the United States.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3729.2006.00418.x
But it turns out that even in Europe, cohabitation is markedly less stable for children than marriage. Analyzing data from 16 countries across Europe, we find that children born to cohabiting couples are about 90 percent more likely to see their parents break up by the time they turn 12, compared to children born to married parents.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/soci...03/27/in-europe-cohabitation-is-stable-right/

Even if cohabitation isn’t associated with future marital dissolution, cohabitation is not in line with Christian teachings. Christian decisions on these matters aren’t dependent on consequentialist lines of thinking.
 
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Again, this is not about specific studies, but basic knowledge of the world around them that most have.
Having seen this is at about the same level of civic knowledge as knowing who your senators are . . .
I guess we’re in very different economical/sociological different demographic areas. I would hardly call this basic civic knowledge
The academic studies on this receive coverage every couple of years. No, not media studies, but academic articles.
OK, you mentioned it was tough not to trip over it in the media… I guess from @FiveLinden s perspective, I don’t think it’s too much to ask for the academic study you’re basing your statistic off of. Personally, if I make a statistical claim I’m usually prepared to back it up…I guess YMMV.
 
As a non-believer I can’t challenge the first assertion but I can challenge the second. Is there any evidence for the claim that couples who live together before marriage have a decreased chance of a permanent union?
I’ve seen the statements about cohabitation linked with divorce often, but haven’t kept track of any specific research, so I googled this:


I’m guessing that googling information will result in research that proves both assertations–cohabiting can be correlated with increased divorces, OR cohabiting can be correlated with longer-lasting marriages.

My husband and I dated for 6 years before we got married, but we never lived together. We celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary in 2019.
 
OK, you mentioned it was tough not to trip over it in the media… I guess from @FiveLinden s perspective, I don’t think it’s too much to ask for the academic study you’re basing your statistic off of. Personally, if I make a statistical claim I’m usually prepared to back it up…I guess YMMV.
quite frankly, as a statistics professor, when I get that formal, my consulting fees are significant. I’m simply sharing accumulated knowledge, not trying to prove anything.
 
Hi, @FiveLinden,

Here’s another article that @Peeps could have cited:


Is that enough evidence? Or, how about the flip-side? You’re basically contending that premarital cohabitation does not lead to increased divorce. Where is the evidence to support this claim?
 
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And I don’t think it’s too much to ask for the source of a statistical claim…guess that’s just me…🤷‍♂️
 
It’s not a “claim” any more than “loose objects tend to move towards the earth.” It’s no more reasonable than asking your physician for citations about tobacco being bad for your health, or that a vaccination reduces your chance of catching whatever disease, or . . .

When an expert on whatever subject offers you a summary, and you want more, pay his going rate. Expecting him to provide academic citations for your curiosity at no charge is objectively unreasonable.

If you really want that level of citations, send $2,000, and it will cover five hours of academic grade tine.
 
I still don’t understand why when someone on an internet message board who doesn’t know you from Adam asks where you get your statistics from you get bent out of shape about providing it.

If I were to do so, I don’t just cop out and say it’s common knowledge…normally I have that information at hand. 🤷‍♂️
 
I find this to be a reasonable sentiment. People should be prepared to provide support for strong claims - for both sides, though. I think there has been reasonable support provided for the discussion on hand re: premarital cohabitation and increased divorce rates.
 
Back when I was in the competitive telecom business, there was an entire industry based around selling solutions that would reduce the number of errors in the orders resulting in rejected orders between the competitive newcomer and the “Bell-co”.

The groups who sold this solution would stand up and say that every reject cost $20, comptel companies dealt with a huge number of rejects every day. Thus this expensive solution would pay for itself in a heartbeat!!

Thing is, before I moved into upper management, I had been responsible for auditing the bills that came from the Bell-cos. This was back in the 90s when sometimes it required reviewing paper invoices! Believe me, I knew carrier bills and charges like the back of my hand. In the thousands and thousands of invoices I had audited, in the millions of dollars of disputed bills I had processed, I had never seen a bill that had $20 for a reject, in fact, I had never seen a penny charged for a reject.

I began to sit on these sales pitches and ask if I could see a copy of one of these reject charge invoices. My name became known in the OSS vendor world because I had a standing promise that I would EAT a $20 bill if someone could produce an invoice for a reject.

After a couple of years, I found out that $20 figure came from a white paper where a consultant had calculated the cost in man-hours and lost revenue due to rejected orders.

That was when I stopped accepting “well, everyone knows this to be true” because sometimes if enough people repeat something it becomes accepted as true. Somebody has to ask to see the evidence.

I believe the National Marriage Project has done studies on cohabitation. http://nationalmarriageproject.org/

The above linked article speaks of increased risk of divorce, not a definitive increase in divorces. The article gives theories for this risk:

Selection . This theory is simply that there are many factors associated with who cohabits when and why, and with whom, and that those factors are also associated with how marriages will turn out regardless of cohabiting experience. For example, it’s well known that those who are more economically disadvantaged are more likely to: live together outside of marriage, live together with more than one partner, have a child with a cohabiting partner prior to marrying, and struggle in marriage. Other factors are religiousness, traditionality, and family history (parental divorce, etc.). The selection explanation is that those who cohabit in riskier ways (e.g., before marriage, before engagement, with more than one partner) were already at greater risk. In the strongest view of selection, living together does not add to the risk at all because it’s all already baked in. There is a lot of evidence for selection playing an important role in this literature, and scholars in this area note this and address it in various ways.
 
I still don’t understand why when someone on an internet message board who doesn’t know you from Adam asks where you get your statistics from you get bent out of shape about providing it.
I’m not bent out of shape.

I just don’t understand why someone on a message board thinks that someone who shares what is other basic knowledge, known to most middle class folks who have read newspapers over the last few decades, as well as having some professional interest and knowledge in the subject, by that sharing incurs an obligation to hunt down raw data that for the handful that don’t know about it could have found on an internet search as easily as demanding it . . .

This is a matter on which there is academic consensus.

I’m also not going to give you a citation for the chain rule of Calculus, the number of Persons in the Trinity, the year of the Battle of Hastings, the nature of the Common Law of England nor how it affects our daily lives in the US, why both the old and new calendar got the date of Easter wrong, or . . .
 
Usually couples who don’t respect each other enough don’t end up married
 
Yes they need to start teaching young people this. No one taught me
 
I just don’t understand why someone on a message board thinks that someone who shares what is other basic knowledge, known to most middle class folks who have read newspapers over the last few decades, as well as having some professional interest and knowledge in the subject, by that sharing incurs an obligation to hunt down raw data that for the handful that don’t know about it could have found on an internet search as easily as demanding it . . .

This is a matter on which there is academic consensus.

I’m also not going to give you a citation for the chain rule of Calculus, the number of Persons in the Trinity, the year of the Battle of Hastings, the nature of the Common Law of England nor how it affects our daily lives in the US, why both the old and new calendar got the date of Easter wrong, or . . .
I think it’s wise to always ask for proof.

As the President is fond of saying, “Fake news!”

I think it’s important that we do our research (which is easy now with google!) and be ready to give an answer when someone asks us to prove it.

An apologist for the Catholic Faith wouldn’t dream of saying, “Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church” without having enough documentation and historical proofs to fill a 50-minute lecture time slot at a Conference (the other 10 minutes of the hour is for questions from the audience!).

I think it’s reasonable for people who are skeptical to ask the one who has made the statement to please provide the proof. I don’t think it should be a burden for the one who makes a statement to have to do a little work online and provide a few links. I did (above) and it took me about a minute to find that article, which isn’t all that great, but it does provide a written proof other than my word.

As for “basic knowledge, newspapers, etc.” --you know that there have been many many MANY falsehoods propagated over the decades (I’m 62) by newpapers. One example is the carbohydrate “fact”–during the 80s, every diet article in every newspaper stated that our diet should be high carb, low protein, and lower fat. As we know now, this high-carb diet based on breads, pastas, and rice has resulted in an obesity rate in the U.S. of around 50% for adults, and 1/3 for children. This “fact” was total bogus and just plain dangerous! I was a thin woman before falling for it!

This “Diet Deception Disaster” has taught me to look a lot harder when someone claims to be presenting “facts.”
 
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I just don’t understand why someone on a message board thinks that someone who shares what is other basic knowledge,
hunt down raw data that for the handful that don’t know about it could have found on an internet search as easily as demanding it . . .
Like I said, I can “prove” the earth is flat with an internet search as well.

Someone is questioning your claim that it’s basic knowledge, specifically a statistical clam and asked where you got it from. I don’t see why it’s such a big deal to provide the study you saw? Apparently YMMV.

I really don’t care one way or the other, I’m just surprised when a poster asks for the origin of a stat, everyone is so surprised about it…
 
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Never heard of a “statistical clam” 😃. Is it tasty? Just kidding.

No, I agree with you about providing evidence. But I would not discount the references people are providing from the Internet. Many of the pieces point towards larger studies that have been conducted, many of which are statistical studies. Most of the really solid statistical studies would require subscriptions to journals or databases like ScienceDirect. It would be illegal to share those articles, so we must suffice with the information that can be found.

Rarely can anything be “proven” (especially the flat earth claims). What can be done is claims can be supported through rigorous qualitative and quantitative investigation. If you would like to learn more about those, I would recommend a good introduction to statistics text for the quantitative side. De Veaux, Velleman and Bock’s text comes to mind. Or, if you’re interested in the dynamics behind why a marriage that began with premarital cohabitation might fail, you might look for some solid case studies or focus groups. Stewart, Shandesani, and Bock have a good text on focus groups. I think one of the bast texts out there on case studies might be Yin has probably the best text out there on case studies I ever read.

Also, it’s important to remember that a piece of research is only as good as the peer review that went into it. As a former member of an editorial board of an educational journal, I can say that there are some shoddy studies that get approved because of poor peer review.

Not sure what YMMV means.
 
Oh, just for giggles, I decided to look at a journal for more quantitative date. Here’s a nice quote:

Premarital cohabitation had a small but significant predictive effect on divorce when considering cohabitation in the absence of personal characteristics.

Here’s the citation if you want to further investigate the source:
Woods, L. N. & Emery, R.E. (2002). The cohabitation effect on divorce. Journal of Divorce & Remarriage, 37 (3-4), 101-122.

I was remiss and did not include the page this came from. It is from the results section, though.

I have to get back to work now, but it’s been fun.
 
Or, if you’re interested in the dynamics behind why a marriage that began with premarital cohabitation might fail, you might look for some solid case studies or focus groups.
Personally I’m not. I’m just surprised at how much push back there was in asking for the a link to the info…Particularly I’m a fan of reading peer reviewed stuff. I particularly like seeing all of the different variables in their conclusion.
Not sure what YMMV means.
Your Mileage May Vary
 
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