Good, Bad, Heaven, Hell

[14er]

I’ve recently been reading a lot of online debates between believers and atheists. When I read one of the common atheist arguments “I can do good in the world even though I don’t believe in God” I had a thought come to mind. I have heard it said that we can do no good deeds apart from God. I never really understood that until I heard this common atheistic argument.

So here’s how I see it: Since God made us, He showers us with the ability to do all the good we can do (feed the poor, love others, etc.). Probably none of us take advantage of it all, we only do some of that good, that which we choose. Believer and non-believer alike each choose whatever good they wish to do, but only because God gave us the ability, the gift, to be able to do it. This would explain why there are believing scoundrels, and non-believing humanitarians. It’s up to each of us.

So now let’s fast-forward to our final destination, either heaven or hell. In heaven, we are still showered with this gift, but since we have the beatific vision, we take full advantage of that gift, which is part of the joy of being in heaven. In hell, however, since we seperated ourselves from God, that gift is totally 100% removed. Thus it is hell, since you won’t even have the ability to have the slightest affection for someone who is your “hellmate” and was your best friend or spouse on earth. On earth, you chose to accept God’s gift of goodness (affection) even though you didn’t believe in Him, but in hell you cannot, since it not being showered on you anymore. It is a place of total evil and hate.

Does this explain good and bad believers, and good and bad atheists, heaven and hell? Are there any theological problems with this view?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’ve recently been reading a lot of online debates between believers and atheists. When I read one of the common atheist arguments “I can do good in the world even though I don’t believe in God” I had a thought come to mind. I have heard it said that we can do no good deeds apart from God. I never really understood that until I heard this common atheistic argument.

So here’s how I see it: Since God made us, He showers us with the ability to do all the good we can do (feed the poor, love others, etc.). Probably none of us take advantage of it all, we only do some of that good, that which we choose. Believer and non-believer alike each choose whatever good they wish to do, but only because God gave us the ability, the gift, to be able to do it. This would explain why there are believing scoundrels, and non-believing humanitarians. It’s up to each of us.

So now let’s fast-forward to our final destination, either heaven or hell. In heaven, we are still showered with this gift, but since we have the beatific vision, we take full advantage of that gift, which is part of the joy of being in heaven. In hell, however, since we seperated ourselves from God, that gift is totally 100% removed. Thus it is hell, since you won’t even have the ability to have the slightest affection for someone who is your “hellmate” and was your best friend or spouse on earth. On earth, you chose to accept God’s gift of goodness (affection) even though you didn’t believe in Him, but in hell you cannot, since it not being showered on you anymore. It is a place of total evil and hate.

Does this explain good and bad believers, and good and bad atheists, heaven and hell? Are there any theological problems with this view?

When an atheist states he can do good, it is true that he may well do what we would call good things. But there is nearly always an element of pride mixed up with it, and that’s the rub. One also finds that there is a negative side - a charitable individual may think nothing of having loose sexual morals.

I can think of one notable exception and that was an Australian bloke called Fred Hollows, who was an atheist (although he had a religious upbringing, and I don’t have much doubt that had something to do with his social outreach. He probably got the example from both home and education). He was an eye specialist and he donated a great deal of time, money and personal effort to helping poor people in third world countries with eye problems. He’s dead now, and I sometimes wonder what happened at his judgment. He seemed to have been a jovial, humble individual.

 

[tonyrey]

I’ve recently been reading a lot of online debates between believers and atheists. When I read one of the common atheist arguments “I can do good in the world even though I don’t believe in God” I had a thought come to mind. I have heard it said that we can do no good deeds apart from God. I never really understood that until I heard this common atheistic argument.

So here’s how I see it: Since God made us, He showers us with the ability to do all the good we can do (feed the poor, love others, etc.). Probably none of us take advantage of it all, we only do some of that good, that which we choose. Believer and non-believer alike each choose whatever good they wish to do, but only because God gave us the ability, the gift, to be able to do it. This would explain why there are believing scoundrels, and non-believing humanitarians. It’s up to each of us.

So now let’s fast-forward to our final destination, either heaven or hell. In heaven, we are still showered with this gift, but since we have the beatific vision, we take full advantage of that gift, which is part of the joy of being in heaven. In hell, however, since we seperated ourselves from God, that gift is totally 100% removed. Thus it is hell, since you won’t even have the ability to have the slightest affection for someone who is your “hellmate” and was your best friend or spouse on earth. On earth, you chose to accept God’s gift of goodness (affection) even though you didn’t believe in Him, but in hell you cannot, since it not being showered on you anymore. It is a place of total evil and hate.

Does this explain good and bad believers, and good and bad atheists, heaven and hell? Are there any theological problems with this view?

I think there are enormous problems with the view that hell is “a place of total evil and hate”. We are capable of rejecting God and choosing to live for ourselves forever because the lust for power is probably the greatest temptation of all. To have absolute freedom and sovereignty over our own inner kingdom with no one to thwart our will or to require our allegiance is “a consummation diabolically to be wished”! So if we recognise the reality of evil hell must also be a reality .

But God’s gift of free will is absolute. Why should He withdraw it when we die? Why should our eternal destiny be decided by one decision? Why should we be incapable of repentance for the rest of eternity? Why should the infinite power of Christ’s love on the Cross be frustrated and wasted forever as far as those in hell are concerned? God is infinitely just but He is also infinitely merciful. Justice and mercy seem contradictory but in the prayer Jesus taught us we see how they are reconciled. We are forgiven to precisely the same extent that we forgive others! No human being could have thought of this solution, so simple yet so sublime…

It is not inconceivable that a person in hell may decide to forgive some one’s crime. That one act of forgiveness is enough to lead to reunion with God. No one is completely evil through and through. It is not for us to judge whether a particular individual is in hell or even beyond the power of redemption. While there is life there is hope, both in this world and the next. Why? Because - as Jesus told us - with God all things are possible. He shares His power with us and His capacity for love unconditionally - which implies that our freedom to choose for ourselves does not end when we die but lasts forever…

 

[JP2Admirer]

I
It is not inconceivable that a person in hell may decide to forgive some one’s crime. That one act of forgiveness is enough to lead to reunion with God. No one is completely evil through and through. It is not for us to judge whether a particular individual is in hell or even beyond the power of redemption. While there is life there is hope, both in this world and the next. Why? Because - as Jesus told us - with God all things are possible. He shares His power with us and His capacity for love unconditionally - which implies that our freedom to choose for ourselves does not end when we die but lasts forever…

You cannot exit hell once you’ve arrived there. This contradicts Christ’s own words that there will be a great chasm, i.e. when you go there, you don’t get out.

On the philosophical end, though, evil is really the result of a distorted will. Everyone acts for the sake of the good, it’s just that the virtuous man has the right tastes, i.e. his good is really good, not apparently good. Hell comes into the equation because we choose the creature over the creator, eternally. We choose the good in something besides God, namely, our self. God’s mercy cannot save someone who is unwilling to be saved. The one boundary He obviously has is our freedom – that is the only place where we actually imitate the power of God because he limits it in no way. If there is freedom, then there is hell.

 

[NoNameMe78]

For a while I wondered if HELL was a place that a person is in at a certain time in their life. Not necessarily after death. A person can live in living hell. Even though God forgives our sin that does not mean we can go on doing what is wrong because God will forgive us. We should try to take the narrow path and make ourselves feel good and have respect for ourselves.

 

[Major_Tom]

On earth, you chose to accept God’s gift of goodness (affection) even though you didn’t believe in Him, but in hell you cannot, since it not being showered on you anymore. It is a place of total evil and hate.

Bull.

I’ve left the Church; it’s taking me a bit longer to accept what you all have accepted. That is, that the Church is IT. I want to read a few more books, listen to a few more opinions before I take that plunge. Now if I die in the meantime… God is going to reward this slow, methodical behavior of mine with what…? “a place of total evil and hate”? I don’t like your idea of God very much.

I’m not an atheist, but I just read a nice quote from Thomas Jefferson to a friend who was studying/questioning the Bible: “Do not be frightened from this enquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reson to believe there is a god, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, you will be a vast additional incitement…”

 

[Xuan]

God = Good. I’ve seen that posted here a million times. If that’s the case, then Good = God also. If a person loves Good above all, whether he calls it “God” or not, and if he loves others as himself, he has followed Christ’s two greatest commands. The bloke mentioned in post # 2 seems to fit that description.

That’s the way I see it.

Xuan

 

[wanstronian]

When an atheist states he can do good, it is true that he may well do what we would call good things. But there is nearly always an element of pride mixed up with it, and that’s the rub. One also finds that there is a negative side - a charitable individual may think nothing of having loose sexual morals.

What an extremely judgemental and narrow-minded perspective to hold! Do you have ANY basis for this bigotry at all?

 

[Major_Tom]

God = Good. I’ve seen that posted here a million times. If that’s the case, then Good = God also. If a person loves Good above all, whether he calls it “God” or not, and if he loves others as himself, he has followed Christ’s two greatest commands. The bloke mentioned in post # 2 seems to fit that description.

That’s the way I see it.

Xuan

Nice…!

 

[tonyrey]

You cannot exit hell once you’ve arrived there. This contradicts Christ’s own words that there will be a great chasm, i.e. when you go there, you don’t get out.

Jesus said “If your hand offends you cut it off” and many other expressions not intended to be taken literally. He used Semitic hyperbole and parables to communicate eternal truths ordinary people will understand. He spoke of heaven as a banquet and hell as everlasting fire even though heaven and hell are not places. He had to use striking images to drive home the horrific reality and consequences of evil.

On the philosophical end, though, evil is really the result of a distorted will. Everyone acts for the sake of the good, it’s just that the virtuous man has the right tastes, i.e. his good is really good, not apparently good. Hell comes into the equation because we choose the creature over the creator, eternally.

How often does a person deliberately and knowingly reject God? To do that you have to be in His presence because otherwise you do not know Who you are rejecting. No one knows the Father except the Son…

We choose the good in something besides God, namely, our self. God’s mercy cannot save someone who is unwilling to be saved.

I agree but there is no evidence that any human being has ever made such a final and irrevocable decision. It is not for us to judge anyone…

The one boundary He obviously has is our freedom – that is the only place where we actually imitate the power of God because he limits it in no way. If there is freedom, then there is hell.

Again I agree with you. Hell is real enough but the question remains as to whether any human being chooses to reject God for all eternity.

Why should our eternal destiny be decided by one decision? Why should anyone be incapable of repentance for the rest of eternity? Why should the infinite power of Christ’s love on the Cross be frustrated and wasted forever as far as those in hell are concerned?

 

[Major_Tom]

Why should our eternal destiny be decided by one decision? Why should anyone be incapable of repentance for the rest of eternity? Why should the infinite power of Christ’s love on the Cross be frustrated and wasted forever as far as those in hell are concerned?

Your whole post here… nice. Very nice.

 

[tonyrey]

Your whole post here… nice. Very nice.

I appreciate your appreciation! If there is one thing that should dominate our thinking it is surely God’s infinite love for us. Everything else has to be seen in that perspective…

 

[Abu]

Major Tom
“a place of total evil and hate”? I don’t like your idea of God very much.

tonyrey
there is no evidence that any human being has ever made such a final and irrevocable decision. It is not for us to judge anyone.

Such opinions give no thought to Christ and His Church – likes and dislikes have no place with truth.

Jesus of Nazareth refers to the sinner for whom “there is no forgiveness, either in this world or in the next.” Having given us His Church with His authority to teach what is good and what is evil, with His command to judge everything against His truth, we must do so, and do not judge the person. His Church has infallibly defined the existence of hell – a state of endless, unimaginable remorse and suffering. Any Catholic who rejects Christ’s teaching has either lost the faith, or has never known what to believe through poor formation.

 

[Mijoy2]

Why should our eternal destiny be decided by one decision? Why should anyone be incapable of repentance for the rest of eternity? Why should the infinite power of Christ’s love on the Cross be frustrated and wasted forever as far as those in hell are concerned?

I can only think of one reason. Because God said so. If we believe in the “revealed God of Israel”, musn’t we take to heart what He told us? Else (and I do not say this unrespectfully) we make up our own God.

 

[tonyrey]

Why should our eternal destiny be decided by one decision? Why should anyone be incapable of repentance for the rest of eternity? Why should the infinite power of Christ’s love on the Cross be frustrated and wasted forever as far as those in hell are concerned?

Where did He say our eternal destiny will be decided by one decision, that some one wil be incapable of repentance for the rest of eternity and that the infinite power of Christ’s love on the Cross will be frustrated and wasted forever?

 

[Mijoy2]

Where did He say our eternal destiny will be decided by one decision, that some one wil be incapable of repentance for the rest of eternity and that the infinite power of Christ’s love on the Cross will be frustrated and wasted forever?

Not sure what you are suggesting here. Are you suggesting that a soul in Hell can repent and leave Hell? I’m not going to pretend I have all the (or any of the ) answers to this.

My thoughts are, in Gods grand salvation plan, He has accounted for this. In our lives on earth He has provided everyone with sufficient grace and means to accept of reject Him. Our will has been cast. Much like the will of the fallen angels. We will no longer make or desire to make such a decision.

I will also look back in ths thread for a more theological answer.

 

[1WATCHER]

I’ve recently been reading a lot of online debates between believers and atheists. When I read one of the common atheist arguments “I can do good in the world even though I don’t believe in God” QUOTE]

Not being without a heart but what does it matter if they do not believe in God if they do good and think the same reward will be granted for them as followers of our Lord. They will not, if while living their earthly life here and just doing good in the world and “expect” to be delivered to heaven will not, They are choosing their OWN way instead of Gods way as we pickup our cross and follow the one who has gone before us. Knowing as we fall is why with joyful hope we look forward to forgiveness from our lord, and change our hearts and thinking to those of our lords as a reflection to glorify our Father.

[Does this explain good and bad believers, and good and bad atheists, heaven and hell? Are there any theological problems with this view?[//QUOTE]

 

[tonyrey]

Not sure what you are suggesting here. Are you suggesting that a soul in Hell can repent and leave Hell? I’m not going to pretend I have all the (or any of the ) answers to this.
My thoughts are, in Gods grand salvation plan, He has accounted for this. In our lives on earth He has provided everyone with sufficient grace and means to accept of reject Him. Our will has been cast. Much like the will of the fallen angels. We will no longer make or desire to make such a decision.
I will also look back in this thread for a more theological answer.

I am asking why we should assume that we no longer have free will when we die? How do we know our will is cast irrevocably? If it were we would no longer be persons but puppets - in which case a more merciful fate would be total extinction. If we no longer had free will in heaven we would be incapable of love! As free will is a sharing in God’s power it is not a temporary gift for this life but an absolute gift which makes us true children of God. We are made in His image not only while we are on earth for all eternity. God does not do things by halves!

 

[Mijoy2]

I am asking why we should assume that we no longer have free will when we die? How do we know our will is cast irrevocably? If it were we would no longer be persons but puppets - in which case a more merciful fate would be total extinction. If we no longer had free will in heaven we would be incapable of love! As free will is a sharing in God’s power it is not a temporary gift for this life but an absolute gift which makes us true children of God. We are made in His image not only while we are on earth for all eternity. God does not do things by halves!

I will throw out one more concept.
We know God has free-will. Yet we know He infinately chooses not to sin. You stated above, "We are made in His image not only while we are on earth for all eternity. "

Therefore, possibly, we can assume we will infinately choose not to sin in heaven.
Not so sure about hell. I don’t see why we would not choose to Love in hell.

In my opinion, questions regarding heaven and hell are the single most unsatifactorily answer questions in the catholic faith. I often wonder why Christ left this such a mystery to ponder with so little to go on.

I suspect we will get the canned answer (which I always find myself uncomfortably accepting), “it is a mystery”. This seems to be the canned catholic response when no other response can be found.

Waiting for those smarter then I to weigh in here.

 

[1WATCHER]

Mijoy2 Re: Good, Bad, Heaven, Hell

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyrey
I am asking why we should assume that we no longer have free will when we die? How do we know our will is cast irrevocably? If it were we would no longer be persons but puppets - in which case a more merciful fate would be total extinction. If we no longer had free will in heaven we would be incapable of love! As free will is a sharing in God’s power it is not a temporary gift for this life but an absolute gift which makes us true children of God. We are made in His image not only while we are on earth for all eternity. God does not do things by halves!

I will throw out one more concept.
We know God has free-will. Yet we know He infinately chooses not to sin. You stated above, "We are made in His image not only while we are on earth for all eternity. "

Therefore, possibly, we can assume we will infinately choose not to sin in heaven.
Not so sure about hell. I don’t see why we would not choose to Love in hell.

In my opinion, questions regarding heaven and hell are the single most unsatifactorily answer questions in the catholic faith. I often wonder why Christ left this such a mystery to ponder with so little to go on.

I suspect we will get the canned answer (which I always find myself uncomfortably accepting), “it is a mystery”. This seems to be the canned catholic response when no other response can be found.

Waiting for those smarter then I to weigh in here.

I don’t know about being a canned answer but, the truth is no one knows. But lets take for example the rich man parable with lazurus when the rich man had received his judgement and if he had free to comand will then he would have been able to quench his thirst and not request that lazurus dip his finger and let it fall on his lips, also understanding the chasem so large the richman was unable to will himself out of it. In all things being explained and understood well as possible by myself and allowed to be in heaven then being focused on the one and only thing of importance is God, as I think of it what other things could I even want to think of when the most important thing in my existence is him…