Good Books on, and in refutation of, Atheism

[TULIPed]

So a few of us think that it all sounds a bit suspect to begin with and they can’t all be right. And they are probably all wrong because their reasons for believing what they believe seem to be based on arguments that are structured to give the answer that they want.

So some of us wander off to explore and leave them to sort it out amongst themselves.

Is the implication that only smart, creative people are atheists? After all, smart people would be able to figure out the whole “structured answer” thing, right? Said another way, only those with weak minds would fall for the whole “builder set some rules” trick?

If only the masses weren’t so conditioned and could just see what was out there. They’d realize that they’re stuck in this maze of structured belief - if only they could free their minds…

Wait a minute - that sounds like a great movie. There’d be a guy, stuck in an office, convinced that there was more to the world than meets the eye - and a cool, attractive girl and a really cool guy (both of whom are oddly really good at martial arts and wear awesome sunglasses) could show him how he wasn’t seeing reality and that all these dumb people were being used “by the system”. We could call it “The System”…no, we need something more catchy. Any ideas?

 

[IWantGod]

Is the implication that only smart, creative people are atheists? After all, smart people would be able to figure out the whole “structured answer” thing, right? Said another way, only those with weak minds would fall for the whole “builder set some rules” trick?

If only the masses weren’t so conditioned and could just see what was out there. They’d realize that they’re stuck in this maze of structured belief - if only they could free their minds…

Wait a minute - that sounds like a great movie. There’d be a guy, stuck in an office, convinced that there was more to the world than meets the eye - and a cool, attractive girl and a really cool guy (both of whom are oddly really good at martial arts and wear awesome sunglasses) could show him how he wasn’t seeing reality and that all these dumb people were being used “by the system”. We could call it “The System”…no, we need something more catchy. Any ideas?

But isn’t this the fantasy underlying materialist philosophy? That a few intelligent minds have broken free of a constructed delusion and have seen the world for what it really is. The ultimate conspiracy theory, that there is no God.

I can’t help but think that what is really driving such a notion in somebody’s mind is that they find themselves confronted by something they think to be undesirable.

 

[PickyPicky]

Is the implication that only smart, creative people are atheists?

I don’t see that implication in what @Wozza said. I certainly wouldn’t want to imply it. I am only too aware that there are many, many, millions of people who believe in God, and many, many millions of those people are more intelligent and more learned than me. They don’t convince me, but so what?

 

[PickyPicky]

I can’t help but think that what is really driving such a notion in somebody’s mind is that they find themselves confronted by something they think to be undesirable

Now that does sound like the basis of a conspiracy theory.

Not me, at any rate. With me it’s very simple. I just don’t find theistic religion believable.

 

[TULIPed]

Fair enough.

It does make one wonder though - why are there smart people who believe in God? Why would a smart person devote time and resources to something they can’t prove? In fact, if you do the math, the vast majority of smart people in the world are religous in some way or another. Of the 7.3 billion people on the planet, 84% are religous according to the Pew Research Center.

I’m an efficient market theory person. Simply stated, it says that an asset’s valuation is representative of all publicly available information, and -if you watch stock prices move before press releases - even a fair amount of non-public information. When the market buys or sells, it does so based on information.

So, when Steve Jobs came out in 2007 and told us that the we didn’t need keyboards on our phones anymore, I was skeptical. I remember attending a meeting in about 2009 or so, and nobody had a Blackberry - right then ane there I was a believer. The market had spoken.

Religion is a product. The world is the market. 84% of the market (at least) is buying. Maybe the market’s wrong. But I doubt it.

 

[Wozza]

TULIPed:

Is the implication that only smart, creative people are atheists?

I don’t see that implication in what @Wozza said. I certainly wouldn’t want to imply it. I am only too aware that there are many, many, millions of people who believe in God, and many, many millions of those people are more intelligent and more learned than me. They don’t convince me, but so what?

I have this mental picture of some of us in this corridor saying: ‘Hey, we hear what you’re saying. But we just don’t agree with you so we can’t join you’. And we wander off.

And there’s one guy pushes to the front and says ‘Yeah, just go! You all think you’re so much SMARTER than the rest of us’. And it’s said with a sneer and a forced smile. Think Rik in the Young Ones.

And the rest of us look at each other giving ‘what was that about’ expressions.

 

[PickyPicky]

Religion is a product. The world is the market. 84% of the market (at least) is buying. Maybe the market’s wrong. But I doubt it.

Yep, that’s fair enough. But I would suspect that’s not the reason you believe.

The number of believers is enormous, but I doubt that’s what has determined either your belief or my lack of it. But it is still enormous, which compels a certain modesty in the rest of us — or should, anyway.

 

[IWantGod]

It does make one wonder though - why are there smart people who believe in God?

Perhaps it is because the alternative ultimately makes no sense.

 

[PickyPicky]

Perhaps it is because the alternative ultimately makes no sense

But that doesn’t explain why there are plenty of smart people who don’t believe in God. So perhaps the reasons on both side are fractionally more complicated.

 

[IWantGod]

And there’s one guy pushes to the front and says ‘Yeah, just go! You all think you’re so much SMARTER than the rest of us’. And it’s said with a sneer and a forced smile. Think Rik in the Young Ones.

I’ve always thought that it was the atheist who felt the need to make religious people think that they are being delusional. If it was simply a matter of “i disagree with you”, then i don’t think religious people would feel disrespected.

 

[IWantGod]

plenty of smart people who don’t believe in God.

That just goes to show that being smart doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is competent to understand or that there will be some kind of unified agreement on every subject matter. I have heard some really stupid things said by smart people.

 

[PickyPicky]

I’ve always thought that it was the atheist who felt the need to make religious people think that they are being delusional. If it was simply a matter of “ i disagree with you ”, then i don’t think religious people would feel disrespected.

You may find it works both ways.

 

[TULIPed]

And to think I threw in the whole Matrix reference as a kind of nerdy simpatico gesture to dial down the sneering forced smile! Total backfire. My apologies.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

And there’s one guy pushes to the front and says ‘Yeah, just go! You all think you’re so much SMARTER than the rest of us’. And it’s said with a sneer and a forced smile. Think Rik in the Young Ones.

I’ve always thought that it was the atheist who felt the need to make religious people think that they are being delusional. If it was simply a matter of “i disagree with you”, then i don’t think religious people would feel disrespected.

‘Who felt the need…’?

Well I guess there are some atheists like that. But it’s more ‘I think you are wrong’ rather than ‘You are all wrong’.

But if one religion IS rght then the majority of the world (including me) is delusional.

 

[Wozza]

And to think I threw in the whole Matrix reference as a kind of nerdy simpatico gesture to dial down the sneering forced smile! Total backfire. My apologies.

No worries. Just too much of a disconnect between the sneering and the analogy. But I can now see where you were trying to go.

But it raises an interesting question. Which pill would you take? The red for me.

 

[IWantGod]

Atheism of the gaps:

Definition: When an atheist places himself firmly in the gap of some religious persons misunderstanding of reality and portrays this as evidence in support of atheism. Examples would includes scientific theories such as the theory of evolution. Richard Dawkins has often used his competence in this field and the incompetence of a particular group of religious people in support of ID to give the illusion that to be religious is an act of cognitive dissonance, that is to say that science as a rational tool necessarily conflicts with religion and therefore the atheist is the champion of whats rational.

I’ve seen this tactic time and time again, even on this forum. Popular media has placed Atheism on the pedestal of rationality, to such an extent that it is simply assumed that there is some naivety in having a belief in God. At best when a person is obviously intelligent and believes in God they are portrayed as being in some way eccentric.

 

[IWantGod]

But if one religion IS right then the majority of the world (including me) is delusional.

Not necessarily delusional. Mistaken, or worse, deceived. A delusion is when you believe that 2+2 = 3 when it is evident that it equals 4.

 

[TULIPed]

Red pill - definitely. Although I can see the temptation to take the blue one - the steaks still taste real, and the wine goes down really smooth.

 

[IWantGod]

Red pill - definitely. Although I can see the temptation to take the blue one - the steaks still taste real, and the wine goes down really smooth.

But would you take the red pill if somebody said that God was on the other-side of it, or would you suspect that Morpheus was just a drug dealer after all?

 

[TULIPed]

Ok, first - Morpheus a drug dealer??? I’m almost to scandalized to write further. I have to take a moment to process that one. How could anyone this cool be a drug dealer:

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