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opus101
Guest
Today, 2 laywomen read the Gospel. A lay man read the first 2 readings. The priest and the deacon were present, but did none of the reading. Isn’t this unusual?
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MarkThompson
Guest
Yes, quite unusual. The rubric today says that the Passion is read “in the same way as on the preceding Sunday,” but the rubric for last week said, “[The Passion narrative] is read by a Deacon or, if there is no Deacon, by a Priest. It may also be read by readers, with the part of Christ, if possible, reserved to a Priest.”Today, 2 laywomen read the Gospel. A lay man read the first 2 readings. The priest and the deacon were present, but did none of the reading. Isn’t this unusual?
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Phemie
Guest
It’s not permitted for two laypersons (man or woman) to read the Passion and the priest and deacon not participate. We have no deacon and only one priest so, out of necessity because Fr. wanted the Passion read in parts, two lay persons (women this time as all the Holy Week readings are divided equally among all the readers and we were the ones who hadn’t read yet) were the Narrator and ‘the others’ while the priest read the words of Jesus.Today, 2 laywomen read the Gospel. A lay man read the first 2 readings. The priest and the deacon were present, but did none of the reading. Isn’t this unusual?
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Anna_Claire
Guest
From the USCCB website…
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The rubrics for Passion Sunday and Good Friday are quite clear on this question, as reflected in the 1988 Circular Letter Concerning the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts from the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments:
“33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of the Christ should be reserved to the priest.”
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This not a time that the priest must read the gospel. He may designate lay people. At my parish we have 3 lay people who will chant the Passion.
*
The rubrics for Passion Sunday and Good Friday are quite clear on this question, as reflected in the 1988 Circular Letter Concerning the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts from the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments:
“33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of the Christ should be reserved to the priest.”
*
This not a time that the priest must read the gospel. He may designate lay people. At my parish we have 3 lay people who will chant the Passion.
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Phemie
Guest
Where does it say that the priest need not read? It says that if lay people are reading the part of Christ is to be read by the priest.From the USCCB website…
*
The rubrics for Passion Sunday and Good Friday are quite clear on this question, as reflected in the 1988 Circular Letter Concerning the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts from the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments:
“33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of the Christ should be reserved to the priest.”
*
This not a time that the priest must read the gospel. He may designate lay people. At my parish we have 3 lay people who will chant the Passion.
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smndtupidisaftr
Guest
It sounds like the priest should at least have some part of the reading.From the USCCB website…
*
The rubrics for Passion Sunday and Good Friday are quite clear on this question, as reflected in the 1988 Circular Letter Concerning the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts from the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments:
“33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of the Christ should be reserved to the priest.*”
This not a time that the priest must read the gospel. He may designate lay people. At my parish we have 3 lay people who will chant the Passion.
But yes, it is extremely unusual, and that’s coming from a Catholic in Los Angeles who has been to quite a few Masses where women give the homily.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Not quite. It says, “… with the part of Christ, if possible, reserved to a Priest.”Where does it say that the priest need not read? It says that if lay people are reading the part of Christ is to be read by the priest.
I suppose this takes a somewhat broader view of what is and isn’t possible than just whether the priest is suddenly stricken mute – for instance, an insufficiency of microphones, or the choice of a chanted (or choral, maybe?) setting which the priest is unable to execute, might well be reason enough. “I don’t wanna” is certainly not the test of impossibility, though!
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smndtupidisaftr
Guest
Well the OP did say that laypeople were simply reading, so I don’t see why it would be impossible for a priest to read. Maybe the priest is suffering from laryngitis? Both priest and deacon?Not quite. It says, “… with the part of Christ, if possible, reserved to a Priest.”
I suppose this takes a somewhat broader view of what is and isn’t possible than just whether the priest is suddenly stricken mute – for instance, an insufficiency of microphones, or the choice of a chanted (or choral, maybe?) setting which the priest is unable to execute, might well be reason enough. “I don’t wanna” is certainly not the test of impossibility, though!
I don’t know, and even if you do find the possibility allowed in the rubrics, I don’t like the intent of the act which seems to be to try to blur further the distinction between priest and laity.
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Kevin812
Guest
My OF Parish this year used 3 lay people (1 man, 2 women) and the Priest who each in rotation read blocks of the text in ‘dramatic’ fashion. They have done this in previous years as well.
Oh and we had a pretty red alter cloth too
Oh and we had a pretty red alter cloth too
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Phemie
Guest
My copy says “33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of Christ should be reserved to the priest.”Not quite. It says, “… with the part of Christ, if possible, reserved to a Priest.”
I suppose this takes a somewhat broader view of what is and isn’t possible than just whether the priest is suddenly stricken mute – for instance, an insufficiency of microphones, or the choice of a chanted (or choral, maybe?) setting which the priest is unable to execute, might well be reason enough. “I don’t wanna” is certainly not the test of impossibility, though!
No ‘if possible’ in there.
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BrJuniper
Guest
It is not unusual for people to proclaim the Word, lay or cleric. Good Friday is not a Eucharistic Liturgy, it is a Passion Service Liturgy. Just as in the Liturgy of the hours, any can invoke all parts of the Liturgy, the form for the ordained may be different.Today, 2 laywomen read the Gospel. A lay man read the first 2 readings. The priest and the deacon were present, but did none of the reading. Isn’t this unusual?
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Anna_Claire
Guest
I take that to mean IF a priest participates, he takes the part of Christ…not that ifa priest is present he should participate. It’s just not necessary for the reading of the Passion.My copy says “33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of Christ should be reserved to the priest.”
No ‘if possible’ in there.
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Hokomai
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phemie forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*My copy says “33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of Christ should be reserved to the priest.”
A classic piece of poor instructional writing. Meaning varies according to whether ‘or’ is conjunctive, or disjunctive, or both; “part” should be plural. The thing being discussed is called both “The Passion narrative” and 'the Passion". The reference to “traditional way” is not needed, since an attempt is then made to define it, and I have no idea what “occupies a special place” means.
Originally Posted by Phemie forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*My copy says “33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of Christ should be reserved to the priest.”
A classic piece of poor instructional writing. Meaning varies according to whether ‘or’ is conjunctive, or disjunctive, or both; “part” should be plural. The thing being discussed is called both “The Passion narrative” and 'the Passion". The reference to “traditional way” is not needed, since an attempt is then made to define it, and I have no idea what “occupies a special place” means.
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Phemie
Guest
I’ve tried finding Paschale Solemnitatis in another language, even latin, since I wanted to compare translations, but I’ve had no luck and it’s not even on the Vatican’s website.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phemie forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*My copy says “33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of Christ should be reserved to the priest.”
A classic piece of poor instructional writing. Meaning varies according to whether ‘or’ is conjunctive, or disjunctive, or both; “part” should be plural. The thing being discussed is called both “The Passion narrative” and 'the Passion". The reference to “traditional way” is not needed, since an attempt is then made to define it, and I have no idea what “occupies a special place” means.
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mburn16
Guest
In our church, the Passion reading on Palm Sunday is performed as a skit, with a narrator (usually a woman, though this time it was actually a young teenager), several “actors” playing the various roles, and the Priest as the role of Christ.
Today we only had the reading, with three readers, including the Priest. Although they read it in turns, rather than parts, so the Priest was not necessarily always - or the only one - reading the part of Christ.
Splitting it up is unusual, as is the practice of having the Gospel read by laypeople. But it isn’t illicit.
Today we only had the reading, with three readers, including the Priest. Although they read it in turns, rather than parts, so the Priest was not necessarily always - or the only one - reading the part of Christ.
Splitting it up is unusual, as is the practice of having the Gospel read by laypeople. But it isn’t illicit.
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Phemie
Guest
How do you interpret this article of the CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENTS’ 2001*** DIRECTORY ON POPULAR PIETY AND THE LITURGY PRINCIPLES AND GUIDELINES***In our church, the Passion reading on Palm Sunday is performed as a skit, with a narrator (usually a woman, though this time it was actually a young teenager), several “actors” playing the various roles, and the Priest as the role of Christ.
Reading of the Lord’s Passion
130. The Church exhorts the faithful to frequent personal and community reading of the Word of God. Undoubtedly, the account of the Lord’s Passion is among the most important pastoral passages in the New Testament. Hence, for the Christian in his last agony, the Ordo untionis informorum eorumque pastoralis curae suggests the reading of the Lord’s Passion either in its entirety, or at least some pericopes from it(136).
During Lent, especially on Wednesdays and Fridays, love for our Crucified Saviour should move the Christian community to read the account of the Lord’s Passion. Such reading, which is doctrinally significant, attracts the attention of the faithful because of its content and because of its narrative form, and inspires true devotion: repentance for sins, since the faithful see that Christ died for the sins of the entire human race, including their own; compassion and solidarity for the Innocent who was unjustly condemned; gratitude for the infinite love of Jesus for all the brethren, which was shown by Jesus, the first born Son, in his Passion; commitment to imitating his example of meekness, patience, mercy, forgiveness of offenses, abandonment to the Father, which Jesus did willingly and efficaciously in his Passion.
Outside of the liturgical celebration of the Passion, the Gospel narrative can be “dramatized”, giving the various parts of the narrative to different persons; or by interspersing it with hymns or moments of silent reflection.
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MarkThompson
Guest
The rubrics of the 2011 Roman Missal (which is what I was quoting from) would supersede an old 1988 circular letter in the event of any conflict. Be that as it may, there is really no contradiction, since the word “should” – notice that they did not write “the part of Christ is reserved to the priest” – takes it safely out of the realm of absolute command.My copy says “33. The Passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator and the people. The Passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers; in the latter case, the part of Christ should be reserved to the priest.”
No ‘if possible’ in there.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Right, it was just a circular letter sent to bishops, not even important enough to merit inclusion in the A.A.S. It is in Notitiae, though (vol. 24, p. 81) if that helps.I’ve tried finding Paschale Solemnitatis in another language, even latin, since I wanted to compare translations, but I’ve had no luck and it’s not even on the Vatican’s website.
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