Good Friday? Is it Church dogma?

[Swiss_Guard]

catholic2:

I’m just wondering if the Crucifixion day is cut in stone by the Church, or does it allow for speculation?

Christ was crucified on the 4th of July and rose on Labor Day. Next question.

---

You sound like a Fundamentalist with your personal interpretation of Scripture. The Church has always held that Christ was crucified on a Friday and rose on Sunday, which is why Sunday replaces the Sabbath as a day of rest. It’s in the Catechism.

 

[mtr01]

catholic2:

Friday was a Sabbath day. Doesn’t your bible indicate more than one Sabbath? Check out Matthew 28:verse 1.

(obviously I’m baiting you and others to come back on this with incredulous indignation!)

Here is the verse from the Douay-Rheims:

Mat 28:1 And in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

Hmm, only one Sabbath there

However, I understand it is translated in the plural in other translations. Unfortunately that is a red herring, as sabbath is often used in the plural when only one day is indicated. For instance, take a look at Mat 12:1-12, especially v. 5. There, both the plural and singular of sabbath are used in reference to only one day.

This whole two sabbath view seems to me pure speculation, as it is not supported in any of the Gospels. What is supported, however, is the uninterrupted chronology of: preparation day, Sabbath day, and first day.

 

[Pug]

catholic2:

Doesn’t Matthew 28:1 say there was more than one sabbath? Please look up this particular passage, Pug, to confirm this or not. Thank you

If I wanted to prove that it is possible for there to be more than one day in a certain week that is a sabbath of sorts, I would turn your modern calendar to Oct 12, 2005 and look at Yom Kippur on Wednesday. Then you can flip open the bible to Lev16:1 to see that Yom Kippur is a day of solemn sabbath rest forever for them. Of course, Saturday will be the usual sabbath that week in Oct. See, two sabbaths as requested.

Otherwise, as someone pointed out, sabbath can be a plural word, as it is in Mt there. I looked it up, as per your request. It is plural when Jesus went into the synagogue and read that Issaiah scroll too (Lk4:16), but there I think they mean the Sabbath, as in one.

I suspect you can also get more than one Passover if you try hard enough, just like you can squeeze more than one date for Easter out of Christians. All you need is some folks using a different calendar.

I think one needs to examine if “day of preparation” means the day before Passover or the day before the regular Sabbath, or what. You also have to confront the deal with John and the Last Supper not being a passover and the Synoptics and it being a passover, but maybe that can be waved away with the more than one passover argument?

 

[catholic2]

mtr01:

Here is the verse from the Douay-Rheims:

Mat 28:1 And in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

Hmm, only one Sabbath there

//snip//

Thanks for looking it up. I have about ten translations, and none of them indicates two Sabbaths…BUT…keep reading this thread!

 

[catholic2]

EENS:

As far as the correct translation, the Church says that the Vulgate is to be taken AS THE ORIGINAL TEXT, that is, free from error. There is no Bible today that is translated from the original… so what if it is from some different manuscript of the Greek… it’s not the original, and St. Jerome, when writing the Vulgate, has the original Greek manuscripts, and he also had a far greater knowledge of language than any of us. Moreover, Trent says what I reiterated above, that the Vulgate is to be taken as the originals, without error. The Vulgate says He will rise ON THE THIRD DAY, not after the third day.

l

If you will do a search on the DR (link is given on one of the posts above) on “three days”, you will see that even the Vulgate says AFTER three days.

 

[catholic2]

Christ was crucified on the 4th of July and rose on Labor Day. Next question.

You sound like a Fundamentalist with your personal interpretation of Scripture. The Church has always held that Christ was crucified on a Friday and rose on Sunday, which is why Sunday replaces the Sabbath as a day of rest. It’s in the Catechism.

I am not speculating on a Sunday ressurection. As far as personal interpretation of Scripture, I will present Scripture as proof. You make the final decision.

 

[catholic2]

gladtobe:

I believe our Lord was crucified either on a Wednesday or Thursday. Because there were two Sabbaths during that week. Either way, 3 days and 3 nights doesn’t fit the time scheme for Jesus to be in his tomb from Friday to Sunday morning.

You are correct, my friend, but how did you come to the conclusion of the two Sabbaths?

 

[catholic2]

mtr01:

//snip//

However, I understand it is translated in the plural in other translations. Unfortunately that is a red herring, as sabbath is often used in the plural when only one day is indicated. For instance, take a look at Mat 12:1-12, especially v. 5. There, both the plural and singular of sabbath are used in reference to only one day.

This whole two sabbath view seems to me pure speculation, as it is not supported in any of the Gospels. What is supported, however, is the uninterrupted chronology of: preparation day, Sabbath day, and first day.

I looked at your scriptures. I don’t see it! Please quote.

Also, I am not aware of any translation that translates into the plural. Please show me.

 

[catholic2]

Pug:

If I wanted to prove that it is possible for there to be more than one day in a certain week that is a sabbath of sorts, I would turn your modern calendar to Oct 12, 2005 and look at Yom Kippur on Wednesday. Then you can flip open the bible to Lev16:1 to see that Yom Kippur is a day of solemn sabbath rest forever for them. Of course, Saturday will be the usual sabbath that week in Oct. See, two sabbaths as requested.

Otherwise, as someone pointed out, sabbath can be a plural word, as it is in Mt there. I looked it up, as per your request. It is plural when Jesus went into the synagogue and read that Issaiah scroll too (Lk4:16), but there I think they mean the Sabbath, as in one.

I suspect you can also get more than one Passover if you try hard enough, just like you can squeeze more than one date for Easter out of Christians. All you need is some folks using a different calendar.

I think one needs to examine if “day of preparation” means the day before Passover or the day before the regular Sabbath, or what. You also have to confront the deal with John and the Last Supper not being a passover and the Synoptics and it being a passover, but maybe that can be waved away with the more than one passover argument?

Hey Pug, you did homework, but not enough, I suspect. Please quote Luke 4:16 to show plural Sabbaths. I don’t see it.

But you did touch on something very important, in that there are other Sabbaths other than the regular Saturday one. Here’s another assignment for you since you are so studious, and if you are so inclined. Go to Exodus 12 and give the sequence from day 10 of the month as instructed to the Israelites on how the Paschal Lamb was to be treated.

 

[mtr01]

catholic2:

I looked at your scriptures. I don’t see it! Please quote.

Also, I am not aware of any translation that translates into the plural. Please show me.

Matt 12:5 (NAB): “Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent?”

Matt 12:5 (Grk): ἢ οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὅτι τοῖς σάββασιν οἱ ἱερεῖς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ τὸ σάββατον βεβηλοῦσι, καὶ ἀναίτιοί εἰσι;

There ya go, both the plural and singular (sabbasin, sabbaton) used in the same verse to refer to one day.

However I seem confused, why else would you refer to Matt 28:1 as being some kind of evidence for two Sabbaths if you weren’t aware of the plural/singular issue? What is the scriptural evidence you suggest? And above all, since Gallileans were allowed to celebrate the Pasch one day earlier than other Jews, does that mean there were really 3 Sabbaths that week?

 

[hlgomez]

Absolutely, Jesus rose on the third day, and He did say in Matthew 12:40 “Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.”

Catholic2,

3 days and 3 nights is symbolic for 3 days. we don’t count on the basis of hours but the particular day, that is, covering Friday, Saturday and Sunday no matter what particular hour it is. That’s 3 days. On the “third day”(Sunday) Jesus rose again.

You must also remember that it is somewhat stupid argument if we rely on the particular hour because we have different time and day (some advanced some late) in the different parts of the world. It might be Sunday night here in the US, but it is Monday morning in the Philippines, etc. So if in that particular Sunday Jesus rose from the dead, it would have been, technically, Monday or Saturday in other parts of the world.

Pio

 

[catholic2]

mtr01:

Matt 12:5 (NAB): “Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent?”

Matt 12:5 (Grk): ἢ οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὅτι τοῖς σάββασιν οἱ ἱερεῖς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ τὸ σάββατον βεβηλοῦσι, καὶ ἀναίτιοί εἰσι;

There ya go, both the plural and singular (sabbasin, sabbaton) used in the same verse to refer to one day.

However I seem confused, why else would you refer to Matt 28:1 as being some kind of evidence for two Sabbaths if you weren’t aware of the plural/singular issue? What is the scriptural evidence you suggest? And above all, since Gallileans were allowed to celebrate the Pasch one day earlier than other Jews, does that mean there were really 3 Sabbaths that week?

Thanks for clearing it up. Now how would I know what you meant without the Greek? So in this passage the first “Sabbath” could be “Sabbaths"and still be correct, because it refers to a generic one, or all Sabbaths. So I could say,” On Sunday(s) we go to Mass; today is Sunday, so we’ll go to Mass. Okedoki But this is not what I’m addressing.

I’m saying that Friday and Saturday of passion week were Sabbath days. I’m also saying that there is no translation that I am aware of, even though I am taking the stance of 2 Sabbaths, of Mat 28:1 that uses the plural Saturday. And I am not using the Galilean Sabath.
(I hope Pug does his homework)

 

[catholic2]

hlgomez:

Catholic2,

3 days and 3 nights is symbolic for 3 days. we don’t count on the basis of hours but the particular day, that is, covering Friday, Saturday and Sunday no matter what particular hour it is. That’s 3 days. On the “third day”(Sunday) Jesus rose again.

You must also remember that it is somewhat stupid argument if we rely on the particular hour because we have different time and day (some advanced some late) in the different parts of the world. It might be Sunday night here in the US, but it is Monday morning in the Philippines, etc. So if in that particular Sunday Jesus rose from the dead, it would have been, technically, Monday or Saturday in other parts of the world.

Pio

I do not think three days and three nights are idiomatic. And you cannot discount the verses that say that AFTER 3 days Christ was ressurected.

The time we are concerned of is very specific to Israel in that the days began and ended at sunset and months began at the first sliver of appearance of the moon.

 

[Pug]

catholic2:

Hey Pug, you did homework, but not enough, I suspect. Please quote Luke 4:16 to show plural Sabbaths. I don’t see it.

Neither do I, hehehe, that’s my point.

Mtr, how do you get the Greek to print in your post?

Catholic2, I figured you were trying to get us to notice that the Greek word for Sabbath can come in singular and plural format, but it still gets translated as singular in the English even when the Greek seems plural. So I provided another place besides Mt where Sabbath in the Greek is plural (sabbaton, genitive plural noun). I picked that spot in Lk because it is accompanied by the Greek word day (hemera, singular) and because I figured it would be clear in that context that just becuase the Greek has the word seem plural there, it is on a specific day that Jesus goes and reads the Isaiah scroll. So the pluralness of the Greek word for Sabbath does not need to mean more than one Sabbath in all cases. My thoughts here may need refining, but I’m short of time.

Otherwise I don’t see why you suggest we read Mt28:1 to see more than one Sabbath.

Ug, I just noticed what you said about me doing homework, and I ran out of time for now…I’ll try to get back to this later today, but no promises.

 

[catholic2]

Regarding Mt 28:1 After about 1,600 years, it will be unwise to just come out and say" this is it". I’m saving Mt 28:1 as my punch line after all pertinent factors are explored.

 

[mtr01]

catholic2:

I do not think three days and three nights are idiomatic. And you cannot discount the verses that say that AFTER 3 days Christ was ressurected.

You know, I tried to post this the other day, but when I got up to answer the phone, an almost three year old decided to do some web surfing before I posted…

I did notice a problem with your references of Mk 8:31; 9:31 and 10:34 as stating “after three days”. Specifically, let’s see the Greek construction of an undisputed verse: Mat 17:1 (Mk 9:1)

“After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.”

Let’s look at the Greek:

“Καὶ μεθ᾿ ἡμέρας ἓξ” or “meta hemeras hex = after six days”

now Mk 8:31-

“καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας” “meta treis hemeras = after 3 days.” In other words, essentially the same construction and meaning.

now Mk 9:31-

“τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ” or “to trito hemera = the third day.” Notice a completely different construction.

Finally Mk 10:34-

“τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ” once again “to trito hemera = the third day”. This is the same construction and meaning as Mk 9:31, which is different from Mk 8:31.

Now let’s compare this Greek from Mark, with one of the parallel verses from Matthew…say Matthew 20:19-

“and hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”

Now the Greek:

“καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἀναστήσεται.” Take a look at the bolded section. Notice that it is once again “τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ” or “the third day”, the same as in Mk 9:31 and 10:34. Therefore it would be more correct to say that only on Markan verse (8:31) actually says “after three days”. Now with only that one verse saying “after three days” and all the others saying “the third day”, I think it’s pretty safe to say that the weight of evidence leans toward “the third day”.

 

[mtr01]

Pug:

Mtr, how do you get the Greek to print in your post?

Actually, I have no idea why it works for me. I have versions of both the Greek NT and Textus Receptus w/Strong’s Numbers on the computer, and I just copy from there and paste it here. Seems to works pretty well

Pug:

Otherwise I don’t see why you suggest we read Mt28:1 to see more than one Sabbath.

I didn’t get that either.

 

[catholic2]

mtr01:

//snip//
Therefore it would be more correct to say that only on Markan verse (8:31) actually says “after three days”. Now with only that one verse saying “after three days” and all the others saying “the third day”, I think it’s pretty safe to say that the weight of evidence leans toward “the third day”.

Hey mtr01, now I know what mtr stands for. I’m sure your baby is as cute as can be. Maybe I should change my name to gp04.

“If I told you once, I told you a million times, my mama said.” Sound familiar? Works in scripture too. I do not see any conflict between after three days and on the third day. I Know that you are only referring to Mark’s Gospel, but other Gospels use “after”. In Matthew 26:61 and 27:40, you will see both usages describing the same event! (DR search on “three days”)

Since scripture do not conflict, then one should think the expanded “after” everytime you see “third day”.

(Nice Greek program. I wish I had one.)

 

[Pug]

catholic2:

Go to Exodus 12 and give the sequence from day 10 of the month as instructed to the Israelites on how the Paschal Lamb was to be treated.

Hmmm, you call me studious so I feel compelled to look it up. I noticed that on the first and seventh day of the festival of unleavened bread you do no work and have a solemn assembly, but unlike the Sabbath, you are allowed to prepare the meal on the day, instead of doing it the day before.

The unblemished male young lamb was to be picked out on 10 Nisan (a date) for a family and kept around alive until 14 Nisan, but if you were too few you combined with a neighbor family (the later rabbis went for minimum of 10 people). The assembly slaughtered the lambs in the evening near dusk/twilight. It gets roasted and eaten that night, you can’t keep it around, you burn the extra before morn. Just like in Egypt, you put blood on the door posts from the lamb and stand around like you are about to leave and remember that the houses got passed over. Nobody goes outside that night, however.

This description does not evision the same thing exactly as Dt16 does. It has it that the lambs are *only *slaughtered at the temple, cooked (not roasted?), and eaten there. Then after eating the Israelites can return to their tents.

So passover can still be celebrated even without a temple if you ignore Dt. It makes me wonder if everyone did the Dt thing or if some did the Ex thing for passover back then.

Wrmov.Ti yt;toB.v;-ta,

 

[Swiss_Guard]

catholic2:

I am not speculating on a Sunday ressurection. As far as personal interpretation of Scripture, I will present Scripture as proof. You make the final decision.

I make the final decision? I thought the Church makes the final decision regarding interpretation of Scripture. Like I said, you sound like a Fundamentalist. You are speculating that Jesus was not crucified on Good Friday because you misinterpret Scripture, but are too proud to see your error.

Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

641 Mary Magdalene and the holy women who came to finish anointing the body of Jesus, which had been buried in haste because the Sabbath began on the evening of Good Friday, were the first to encounter the Risen One. (emphasis mine)

The final decision has been made by the Church: Christ died on Good Friday and rose on Easter Sunday. Case closed!

I have more important things to deal with, like how the Packers are going to replace Mike Wahle and Marco Rivera on the offensive line and rebuild the defense, all the while making sure Brett Favre comes back.