Good fruits without the Catholic faith?

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slewi

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I’ve been thinking a lot about our separated brethren, those Christians that do not share in the fullness of our Catholic faith. I have a hard time understanding how they can be so on fire for the Lord without the truths of the faith. Many of them seem to be doing much more for God’s kingdom than some Catholics.

For example I stumbled upon a Youtube video of a man that attends a Church of Christ church in the south. He was a hardened sinner that almost destroyed his family but was converted forty years ago and still to this day is extremely active in his church. He preaches about Jesus and loving Him and loving your neighbor, and baptizing people into Christ, and all of those things. I have a hard time condemning these people or even thinking they are doing wrong.

How can something that produces good fruit (drunkards and adulterers and other sinners give up their sin and coming to God) be bad. Is it? How can we be so divided and have the same goal? Someone help me out here. Thanks and God bless you.
 
slewi said:
I’ve been thinking a lot about our separated brethren, those Christians that do not share in the fullness of our Catholic faith. I have a hard time understanding how they can be so on fire for the Lord without the truths of the faith. Many of them seem to be doing much more for God’s kingdom than some Catholics.

For example I stumbled upon a Youtube video of a man that attends a Church of Christ church in the south. He was a hardened sinner that almost destroyed his family but was converted forty years ago and still to this day is extremely active in his church. He preaches about Jesus and loving Him and loving your neighbor, and baptizing people into Christ, and all of those things. I have a hard time condemning these people or even thinking they are doing wrong.

How can something that produces good fruit (drunkards and adulterers and other sinners give up their sin and coming to God) be bad. Is it? How can we be so divided and have the same goal? Someone help me out here. Thanks and God bless you.
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Awesome
 
Seek not to limit the power and love of Jesus. My family who work in India with the very poor get more help and support in every way from the Buddhists than from Catholics there. Love is love and power is power. Until we can love fully in our own lives how can we think of limiting? Of judging and thinking others are less than we are? Living faith …that is the core. Jesus
 
slewi said:
I’ve been thinking a lot about our separated brethren, those Christians that do not share in the fullness of our Catholic faith. I have a hard time understanding how they can be so on fire for the Lord without the truths of the faith. Many of them seem to be doing much more for God’s kingdom than some Catholics.

For example I stumbled upon a Youtube video of a man that attends a Church of Christ church in the south. He was a hardened sinner that almost destroyed his family but was converted forty years ago and still to this day is extremely active in his church. He preaches about Jesus and loving Him and loving your neighbor, and baptizing people into Christ, and all of those things. I have a hard time condemning these people or even thinking they are doing wrong.

How can something that produces good fruit (drunkards and adulterers and other sinners give up their sin and coming to God) be bad. Is it? How can we be so divided and have the same goal? Someone help me out here. Thanks and God bless you.
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Probably has something to do with those of us who are not Catholic but are never the less members of Christ’s Church feel we do have the fullness of his faith. I’m sure this man you stumbled upon on Youtube doesn’t feel he’s lacking in Christ’s truth or love and it is clear that Christ is working through him and he’s living Christ’s greatest commandments to the fullest.
 
It’s my understanding that the RCC doesn’t teach that fellow Christians lack the Holy Spirit, Who produces good fruit, but rather that somehow we are deficient of the “fullness of truth” only to be found in the Catholic Church. So individual Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, etc… can bear good fruit via the Holy Spirit just as Catholics can.
 
God will work with whoever he wants - yes. But why? Are these Church of Christ folks, these fine God fearing people who put God in the center of their lives going to Heaven?

They don’t have our sacraments. No confession. Just their repentance and faith.

Are they in a state of grace?

Is that baptism down in the creek the same as the baptism in a church given by a priest?

All they have to do is love God and love their neighbor and they’re in?

Really, this is perplexing to me.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
God is not in a box. I love that. I have always tried to ask myself, ‘How is God in this situation / community / person?’ It helps so much to see how UNbox-like God is.
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One wonders how un-boxed people really go with God.

Regards Tony
 
slewi said:
God will work with whoever he wants - yes. But why? Are these Church of Christ folks, these fine God fearing people who put God in the center of their lives going to Heaven?

They don’t have our sacraments. No confession. Just their repentance and faith.

Are they in a state of grace?

Is that baptism down in the creek the same as the baptism in a church given by a priest?

All they have to do is love God and love their neighbor and they’re in?

Really, this is perplexing to me.
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Do you believe that the Holy Spirit speaks only to Catholics, or to all whom knock?

I can’t speak to official Catholic beliefs, but my own beliefs are God answers all whom knock and does wonders with peoples of all beliefs. Through these wonders, promptings of the Holy Spirit, and holy words, He teaches more truth and brings all people closer to Him. Yes, there is One ultimate truth and One ultimate baptism, but there are many people still walking down the path which will bring them to it.
 
slewi said:
God will work with whoever he wants - yes. But why?
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I’m confused by your question Why what? Why will He work with whoever He wants? Because He’s in charge…
Are these Church of Christ folks, these fine God fearing people who put God in the center of their lives going to Heaven?
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Maybe, maybe not… I believe that’s the RC position.
They don’t have our sacraments. No confession. Just their repentance and faith.
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God isn’t bound by the sacraments as I understand it.
Are they in a state of grace?
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Depends on the person.
Is that baptism down in the creek the same as the baptism in a church given by a priest?
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Trinitarian baptism with water is usually seen to be “the same” as baptism in a church given by a priest.
All they have to do is love God and love their neighbor and they’re in?
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No on has said that to my knowledge.
Really, this is perplexing to me.
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What point is it that you are really trying to make?
 
I don’t have a point, I’m asking questions. We belong to the Catholic church, founded by Jesus Christ. I was under the assumption that all other religions or Christian denominations are spurious, which is why I am perplexed that the Holy Spirit seems to be working in others to great advantage outside of our Faith.
 
Rosebud77 said:
Seek not to limit the power and love of Jesus. My family who work in India with the very poor get more help and support in every way from the Buddhists than from Catholics there. Love is love and power is power. Until we can love fully in our own lives how can we think of limiting? Of judging and thinking others are less than we are? Living faith …that is the core. Jesus
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Beautiful
 
Rosebud77 said:
Seek not to limit the power and love of Jesus. My family who work in India with the very poor get more help and support in every way from the Buddhists than from Catholics there. Love is love and power is power. Until we can love fully in our own lives how can we think of limiting? Of judging and thinking others are less than we are? Living faith …that is the core. Jesus
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Love it.
 
slewi said:
I don’t have a point, I’m asking questions. We belong to the Catholic church, founded by Jesus Christ. I was under the assumption that all other religions or Christian denominations are spurious, which is why I am perplexed that the Holy Spirit seems to be working in others to great advantage outside of our Faith.
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I guess I’d just refer you to Lumen gentium, which includes;
  1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
 
God gives us sacraments but He is not bound by those sacraments.

If they are validly baptized then they are already Christian, just not in communion with us. And they have received sanctifying grace which can explain the transformation we see from many of our protestant friends. Also, they are avid bible readers and you can receive grace from reading the Word as well.

There is something called invincible ignorance. If they are just following their conscience and doing their best to walk with the Lord I think they will be just fine.
 
slewi said:
I don’t have a point, I’m asking questions. We belong to the Catholic church, founded by Jesus Christ. I was under the assumption that all other religions or Christian denominations are spurious, which is why I am perplexed that the Holy Spirit seems to be working in others to great advantage outside of our Faith.
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You’d be surprise of the vast glory of God.

I’d recommend you visit a non-Catholic church sometime and chat with the people there about their beliefs, you’ll be amazed of God’s vastness. (Note: I’m not saying you should ditch Mass, but as a side activity).
 
jane_doe said:
You’d be surprise of the vast glory of God.

I’d recommend you visit a non-Catholic church sometime and chat with the people there about their beliefs, you’ll be amazed of God’s vastness. (Note: I’m not saying you should ditch Mass, but as a side activity).
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I totally agree. When I go to a new worshipping community and ask, ‘What is God doing here?’ I am always wonderfully surprised. God is indeed good.
 
slewi said:
I don’t have a point, I’m asking questions. We belong to the Catholic church, founded by Jesus Christ. I was under the assumption that all other religions or Christian denominations are spurious, which is why I am perplexed that the Holy Spirit seems to be working in others to great advantage outside of our Faith.
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Be careful that you are not like the older brother of the prodigal son. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son

There are examples in Scripture that could help.

The wise men from the east, astrologers (and therefore also astronomers) who saw the sign of the King of the Jews being born. They followed His star to seek Him. They were not Jews, but they found Christ. We don’t know what they did after they returned home, but we do know they did not go back to Herod to tell him where the Christ child was. They obviously believed, albeit we don’t know the extent of their belief, but I do say that says something.

Also I’m reminded of the story of St. Genesius catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=185 a saint who was martyred basically almost on the spot of his own conversion. The story goes that he was an actor/comedian who was to put on a play to mock the new faith of Christianity. As he was on stage, he found himself graced by God and became a believer. At first, the emperor thought he was still cracking jokes when he started to say things FOR Christ, but later after the emperor found out he had actually converted, in his anger he had the actor executed. This man had no sacraments. God provided. The Church canonized him.

Then also is the thief next to Christ crucified along with Him who believed upon Him. The other did not. There were no sacraments, except Jesus Himself being there. Again, God provided.

In Revelation, it is said to those who God has saved He would provide “Hidden Manna”… what that is and who and how of it, we aren’t privy to (unless, I guess we are recipients of it)… We can’t put God in a box, however we are to do as He commanded and do what we know we ought to do.

You might think this speaks against the sacraments, it does not. If we are called to His Supper, we are CALLED… God called- then we should go do. To some, perhaps he does no call, or maybe for other reasons they cannot come- either personal sin or family ties… perhaps there is no Mass for miles around and they are poor… Whatever the reason, God knows. He knows the heart. It is said in Scripture, there is Faith Hope and Love and the greatest of these is Love. The other two will pass away- because when we are face to face with The Lord in heaven, we won’t need faith, or hope, but the love we share will remain… forever!

Small pondering offshoot here: Did Adam and Eve have a wedding? Holy Matrimony?

The sacraments are there for us. They are sacred gifts for us. It’s not “DUTY”… though it can be at times when we are striving to love God better. It should never be a prideful thing… like the pharisee in Luke 18:11(ish). The sacraments were made for those who love God to be able to be close to Him, and be nourished and to be together in our nourishment giving thanks to God… however, God can nourish if He so chooses, if He so needs… His ways are so far above our ways. We could never figure out God (amen!).
 
This was an awesome post. Look around…“By their fruits…” right?

In the LDS Church, for example, every member gets visited by members every month. It is called Home Teaching and Visiting Teaching. When my wife, who is not a Mormon, needed to change apartments here in Utah (when I was still living in Texas) 20 people showed up to help her. She had no idea they were coming.

My Grandmother was Baptist. The work her Sunday School group did was amazing. I have never seen such a giving and loving Spirit as I saw with them.

You see it everywhere. God making a difference. We can dispute all day who has authority…we will never agree…

But we CAN agree that Heavenly Father loves us…Christ is our Savior…we can be charitable, loving…giving…we can be the kind of believers Jesus would be proud of…
 
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