Good news for traditionalists!

[kleary]

Kielbasi:

That scenario isn’t really that likely to happen, even if this story is accurate and the leadership of the SSPX is brought back into the church.

First, there is no guarantee that the Portland chapel wouldn’t drop out of the SSPX which they might if they were not satisfied with the terms of this proposed accord.

But even if they did come aboard, the Portland archdiocese might be just as likely to merge the current diocesan Latin mass with the SSPX chapel and just have one site. Depends on the projected total attendance/contributions and the actual attendance and contributions afterwards.

To give an analogy from the business world, Macy’s bought out the Kaufmann’s department store chain here in Pittsburgh, Macy’s is closing stores all over the metro area, as there is no real need or motivation to compete with one’s self.

The local ordinary would not be allowed to touch any reconciled SSPX chapel because THEY WILL NOT be in the local ordinary’s diocese.

So much for that.

Ken

 

[kleary]

otm:

The likelyhood of any group of churches within the Roman rite not being under the authority of a bishop would seem to be nil and none. I don’t know of any such groups currently. Do you know of any?

They would have their own seperate Diocese. At least that is what I hear. They would have their own Bishops that would govern them independant of the local ordinary where they are located.

So no one can touch them and try to destroy things like insert altar girls or communion in the hand and other Novus Ordo things.

Ken

 

[arieh0310]

otm:

which two are you referring to? I presume one is the church in the Multnomah area, but what is the other?

St Birgitta is the TLM indult in the area, Our Lady of Fatima on SW Garden Home is the SSPX chapel, and Holy Rosary has an awesome Latin NO mass (that is my parish). If the SSPX were in full communion with Rome I may check out Our Lady of Fatima because St Birgitta is in the middle of nowhere.

 

[slewi]

kleary:

They would have their own seperate Diocese. At least that is what I hear. They would have their own Bishops that would govern them independant of the local ordinary where they are located.

So no one can touch them and try to destroy things like insert altar girls or communion in the hand and other Novus Ordo things.

Ken

From what I understand, it may very well be the beginning of a ‘latin rite’ within the RCC.

S

 

[Dr.Bombay]

slewi:

From what I understand, it may very well be the beginning of a ‘latin rite’ within the RCC.

S

Wouldn’t that be a “Latin Rite” within the “Latin Rite?” Or would it be a “Latin Sub-Rite?” And how would the Latin Sub-Rite within the Latin Rite work in Latin America?

These questions make me glad I’m not Pope… (A lot of people are glad you aren’t Pope, I can just hear some of you whispering.)

 

[MrS]

Dr. Bombay:

Wouldn’t that be a “Latin Rite” within the “Latin Rite?” Or would it be a “Latin Sub-Rite?” And how would the Latin Sub-Rite within the Latin Rite work in Latin America?

These questions make me glad I’m not Pope… (A lot of people are glad you aren’t Pope, I can just hear some of you whispering.)

Subs???

Did someone say subs???

Quizno’s??? those are Latin…right?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

MrS:

Subs???

Did someone say subs???

Quizno’s??? those are Latin…right?

Mmmmmm…subs.

Can you imagine what ICEL would do with a Quizno’s sub? They’d turn it into a tasteless rice cake and lettuce sandwich, all the while trying to convince you it’s just as filling as the original.

 

[TNT]

Ok, here’s my take on all this (being married to an SSPX’r).
Bp Fellay has been head of the SSPX for about 12yrs. His term is up this summer.
He wants to be known for a great Bp in the SSPX (vanity?).
He will put the heat on the SSPX parishes all thru Spring to go with whatever B-16 and he can get out of the French/American Novus Ordo Bps.

IF he cannot get a majority concensus by the approach of his retirement, the whole negotiation process will go to seed.
There is a 50% chance that he can pull this off but the SSPX parish members will be a really hard sell, along with 1 or more of the SSPX other Bps. like Williamson.

I don’t think that Fellay will want to known as the one who split the SSPX wide open, so if he can’t get a good majority, like 70+%, he’ll pull back off and leave it to the next Superior.

The SSPX is generally convinced that B-16 is their best bet for reconciliation in foreseeable popes.

B-16 has a personal point in this since it was mostly he who “failed”, as he sees it, to persuade Bp. Lefebvre in 1988 to hold off on the illegal consecrations. He will twist every curia arm to get a consensus from them to give the minimum that the SSPX will take.

 

[Sean_O_L]

TNT wrote:

He will twist every curia arm to get a consensus from them to give the minimum that the SSPX will take.

But - there WILL be a quid pro quo, TNT!

Lil’ol SSPX’rs (like your wife! and you!) will have to acknowledge, for example:

1. That the “Novus Ordo” IS the normative Mass of the Roman Rite;
2. That it IS a true and proper Sacrifice and a propitiary Sacrifice;
3. That it is NOT intrinsically evil;
4. That all the current Sacramental Rites ARE valid and confer the Graces designated by Christ;
   etc., etc.,

No “ifs” or “buts” for reconciliation - but, lots of humility and charity on both sides.

 

[MrS]

Sean O L:

TNT wrote:

But - there WILL be a quid pro quo, TNT!

** Lil’ol SSPX’rs **(like your wife! and you!) will have to acknowledge, for example:

1. That the “Novus Ordo” IS the normative Mass of the Roman Rite;
2. That it IS a true and proper Sacrifice and a propitiary Sacrifice;
3. That it is NOT intrinsically evil;
4. That all the current Sacramental Rites ARE valid and confer the Graces designated by Christ;
   ** etc., etc.,**

No “ifs” or “buts” for reconciliation - but, lots of humility and charity on both sides.

… and that would include you too, I should hope…

 

[anna1978]

Dr. Bombay:

Even if the SSPX were brought back, there are some within that Society who would break off and continue their schismatic ways because they oppose any compromise with “modernist” Rome. And if one of them happens to be a bishop, the schism will continue for decades…

I agree, this is what happened with the ‘Old Catholic’ church…I think if they want it all ‘on their own terms’, it ain’t gonna happen! We have a SSPX right behind our Catholic church, in a converted house…about 5-10 people attend (our sacristin has been there several times to see how ‘popular’ it was), and they only manage 1 Mass a month, because so few are interested. Our church does a Latin Mass every 2 months or so, and again: 5-10 people, all over 60…no-one interested!

Anna x

 

[Kielbasi]

Dr. Bombay:

Even if the SSPX were brought back, there are some within that Society who would break off and continue their schismatic ways because they oppose any compromise with “modernist” Rome. And if one of them happens to be a bishop, the schism will continue for decades…

All true, doc.

The thing with this reconciliation, if it comes down, is it would have to be sold to the priests and faithful of the SSPX if its going to be successful. And that largely depends of the persuasiveness of Bsp. Fellay et al.

At the current point in time, the SSPX point of view is that the English mass and sacraments are not legitimate. That view would have to be abandoned if they were reconciled.

A certain percentage of the SSPX clergy and faithful just wouldn’t accept it.

Another percentage would not only accept it, they’d embrace it wholeheartedly and wonder why they ought to travel an hour to a Latin mass when a legitimate English mass is close enough that they can hear the church bells from their bedroom.

The sell-job for the proposed reconciliation would be very, very difficult, particularly as it is such an about face from their current position.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

otm:

The likelyhood of any group of churches within the Roman rite not being under the authority of a bishop would seem to be nil and none. I don’t know of any such groups currently. Do you know of any?

In purest theory, the only bishop under whose “authority” the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter operates is the pope. However, they still need permission from the local ordinary to minister in a diocese and get a building and all that jazz, AFAIK.

 

[Kielbasi]

kleary:

The local ordinary would not be allowed to touch any reconciled SSPX chapel because THEY WILL NOT be in the local ordinary’s diocese.

So much for that.

Ken

That’s true, but how would that stop the local ordinary from discontinuing the local indult mass, if he figures that lat(name removed by moderator)hiles could now attend the reconciled SSPX chapel?

And how would that stop the reconciled, but autonomous, SSPX from discontinuing operations in an area, if there is already an indult mass there?

 

[Chris_in_Mich]

Kielbasi:

At the current point in time, the SSPX point of view is that the English mass and sacraments are not legitimate. That view would have to be abandoned if they were reconciled.

See [this (http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novusordo.htm) from the SSPX website. They refer to the Novus Ordo as defective but valid providing matter, form, and intent.
.

**D. THIS BEING SO, CAN IT BE SAID THAT THE *NOVUS ORDO MISSAE ***

IS INVALID?

This does not necessarily follow from the above defects, as serious as they might be, for only three things are required for validity (presupposing a validly ordained priest), proper:

• matter,
• form,
• and intention.

However, the celebrant must intend to do what the Church does. The Novus Ordo Missae will no longer in and of itself guarantee that the celebrant has this intention. That will depend on his personal faith (generally unknown to those assisting, but more and more doubtful as the crisis in the Church is prolonged)…

 

[GWS]

The reconciliation of the SSPX with Rome would certainly be a positive thing. The more Traditionalist (e.g.; SSPX, FSSP, etc.) orders that promulgate the TLM, the better for both these orders and the Church as a whole.

 

[Patrick2340]

First of all, the point of this article is not that the Pope is mulling a full fledged reconciliation. He is mulling lifting the ban of excommunication against the bishops of the SSPX. He can do this without any agreement from Bishops Fellay, Williamson, de Mallerais, or de Galleretta.

This was the first condition the SSPX laid down before talks for a reconciliation could begin. The second condition was a universal indult. Supposedly that idea was (unofficially) floated by Rome and resulted in strong protests from many bishops, especially the Bishops of France. Rome offered the SSPX a Personal Apostolic Administration (PAA). This canonical structure (the PAA) would be identical to what Rome has already given the Society of St. John Vianney (SSJV) in Campos, Brazil.

The PAA would allow the Society to set up parishes in any diocese without the permission or cooperation of the bishop of that diocese. Bishop Rifan of the SSJV has been extremely diplomatic in securing the cooperation of bishops in dioceses where he intends to establish a traditional parish. The SSPX, it would be hoped, would follow this example.

There have been many rumors since the initial approach was made by Rome to the SSPX: full reconciliation was imminent, a universal indult was imminent, a PAA was being considered for the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King, on November 19th a gift from His Holiness to Trads, the agreement for SSPX reconciliation is imminent and Bishop Fellay will be elevated to Cardinal Fellay with Msgr. Schmidberger being consecrated a Bishop of the new PAA.

Personally, I’ll believe it when I see it. There have simply been far too many rumors to give credence to anything until it actually happens.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Patrick2340:

Personally, I’ll believe it when I see it. There have simply been far too many rumors to give credence to anything until it actually happens.

This is so true. The internet is a wonderful tool, but it also makes the spreading of rumors and inuendo worldwide far too easy.

 

[MrS]

Dr. Bombay:

This is so true. The internet is a wonderful tool, but it also makes the spreading of rumors and inuendo worldwide far too easy.

Al Gore, what have you done???

 

[Kielbasi]

Chris in Mich:

See this from the SSPX website. They refer to the Novus Ordo as defective but valid providing matter, form, and intent.
.

A view of the Novus Ordo liturgy as defective isn’t conducive to reconciliation, and would have to change.

Further, the SSPX isn’t really a monolith amongst it devotees, and many I’m sure have even an opinion of more negativity.

I don’t know whether this reconciliation between the SSPX hierarchy and the Vatican will come down, but I still think the real work will be in reconciliating the various chapels and faithful in their pews.

Regardless of how this episode turns out, the controversy between Latin-mass only folks and the Vatican will continue for some time to come.