good news to all wiccans

[dessert]

God’s had quite the attitude change between the Old and New Testaments. To say God is immutable is to deny his omnipotence.

Probably

Thanks, but I don’t do the ‘temples of earth’ thing either – I’m agnostic, just playing devil’s advocate (quite literally in some peoples’ view, it would seem). If I have kids, they’ll be free to profess whatever faith or lack thereof they want, and I’ll be supportive of that even if I don’t agree with them.

Just let them play in traffic and run down the train tracks in front of trains que sera sera?

 

[IanCorrigan]

**The pity is how wrong you are. I’ve known people in this movement since 1995. How they turn out leaves much to be desired. **

Shall we count the number of catholics living in flophouses?

The LEADERS, the elders, where are they?
Picking up catch phrases is wonderful. Where are the rules, where are the people to guide the young in this movement?
No where.

Your pretense of experience in what wiccans are like just doesn’t cut any ice with those of us who actually know the movement. Most wiccans, everywhere, are regular people with regular jobs, just getting through life like everyone else. They/we have kids, mortgages, bills, etc, and also devote ourselves to our spiritual practice.

When people are young, we often take some time to get our lives together. As people get older we usually manage, whatever our religion. It is merely false, whatever your alleged personal experience, to think that wiccans are more likely to be unemployed or out of touch with mainstream life than catholics.

They are writing books about Wicca and making big bucks, not doing a thing to actually guide those who are making it up as they go along.

That statement is both false and contradictory. If they’re writing books, then they are guiding those who would otherwise make it up. However, no-one makes big bucks writing occult books. It just doesn’t happen unless one is one of the very, very few who break out into mainstream sales.

Most folks who write books on Wicca are Wiccans who want to share their insights and ideas with the community. If one is lucky one finds a publisher, but even then the chance of making a dime past one’s advance (if ever) is minimal.

If you can find a real professional person who thinks themselves Wiccan, I can give you twenty lost people who are not being helped by any making cash off of it.

If you know 20 wiccans, in fact, I’d be surprised. Your complete lack of accurate data suggests you’re just short on information.

Wiccans work in medicine, science, education, computer jobs, the military and every other high-end position. Those interested in real data on wiccans and neopagans (rather than bigoted mischaracterisation) I’d recommend “Voices From The Pagan Census; A National Survey of Witches and neo-Pagans in the US” by Berger, Leach and Shaffer

I had contact with people all over the world on the internet chatrooms. NO ONE is leading these people and they are searching for an easy out and a blame.

Yes, internet chatrooms are always good examples of who people really are and how they behave… Shall we judge catholics by this thread?

**I’m gonna say the same to you. If you are one of these Elders, where are you? **

I am an elder, in NE Ohio. The community I know is nothing like you describe - one of the main reasons I think you’re exaggerating your experience. I have, for the last 15 years, helped offer regular, public Pagan worship in the area, and have met literally hundreds of the area’s Pagans. I have found us to be pretty usual - jobs change, people finish degrees and go to work, people get married and unmarried. Some learn easily, some find it harder to figure life out. I can no more fix my Pagan friends and associates than your local priest can fix his folk.

As we said before - saying one is a wiccan, and diddling about with ‘psychic’ foolishness is not something that the wiccan movement can prevent. If folks like that come out to the regular round of public events available to them, if they actually meet a community that doesn’t just reinforce their own little qliques, then we can be of some use. If they stay in their basements they have the same problems as someone from any religion who doesn’t really learn what their religion is about.

Send me some Pagan kids who need direction, and I could give it a try…
Ian

 

[dessert]

The prophesies were fullfilled.
Hebrews 13; 8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[Mirdath]

thanks Ian, not having any particular religion I don’t have your perspective or experience

Just let them play in traffic and run down the train tracks in front of trains que sera sera?

After you get hit by a few cars it doesn’t hurt so much anymore

Seriously now, that’s hardly a good analogy – kids get messed up by all kinds of religions and other things. You may say I’d be playing with their immortal souls; I don’t believe in an eternal soul. If they get religion I’ll happily drive them to church, temple, coven, or whatever and support them in their choice even though I will not agree that their beliefs are correct. I am there to provide ethical guidance and help when they screw up (and if I’m any indication, they will – but they’ll also have a hard time putting anything over on me ), not to indoctrinate them into a religion from birth. That indoctrination was done to me in my childhood, is primarily responsible for my current attitude towards organized religion, and it is the reason I will not do it to my hypothetical children.

 

[IanCorrigan]

A religion doesn’t just pop up, it is lead by someone. There are people who tell you the rules and guide you.

Yes. Wicca has spread by two main methods - in early days it spread through direct, personal teaching - the only way to be Wiccan was to be initiated by a wiccan. Wiccan covens were schools of religion, magic and mysticism.

Later, the typical american reaction against restriction and authority lead to the publishing of most all of what had once been ‘secret’, or at least private. That allowed isolated students who were already drawn to Pagan ideas to begin practicing wiccan rituals and methods. In the hands of some of my least-favorite authors, some books do seem to suggest that wicca is whatever one wants it to be. That is contrary to the traditions of wicca, and traditional wicca continues in the background of the movement. I’d recommend a look at the Covenant of the Goddess, at cog.org/ who represent hundreds of covens and solitaries around the US. (Again, I ask, please, that these dialogues not result in harrassment or preaching or exhortation posts to these Pagan organizations)

**It is not organized, it’s a concept and not a very good one at that. **

Again, you’re uninformed. There are Pagan and Wiccan councils in many US cities, a handful of national Pagan ‘denominations’ with thousands of dues-paying members.

Many people who seek Wiccan or pagan spirituality have a certain attitude about what they might call ‘organized religion’. Many self-identified Pagans reject the whole idea that they might have to learn how to do spirituality from someone else. Some experience in practical religion general teaches that there is real value in learning from teachers, and many areas have wiccan study-groups and classes available. My own Paganism isn’t wicca, but my little group has offered training, support and regular worship for many years.

On the net, one can easily find formal instruction in wiccan meditation, devotion, mythography and ethics. try cherryhillseminary.org/index.html

**I know that people to call themselves Wiccan BELIEVE in the concept. **

If people think wicca is about what one ‘believes’, then they really don’t understand the religion, in my opinion. Wicca, like most Pagan religions, is about what one does, not about what one believes. If one is not actively worshipping the Gods, meditating, working on the self and one’s life, honoring the land, and the seasons as they turn, then one is just saying one is wiccan - not being wiccan. (imnsho)

Ian

 

[netmilsmom]

Shall we count the number of catholics living in flophouses?

Not a problem. Count the numbers of Catholic in the flophouses. Then tell us about them. We have people who help them.
Catholic Charities is very well know.
I’m not seeing a lot of work from “Wicca Charities”. If you know of an organization doing this, please tell me. I have a niece and nephew-in-law that could use it. In fact, I know a WHOLE lot of people who need help. Please hurry. They are dropping fast.

Your pretense of experience in what wiccans are like just doesn’t cut any ice with those of us who actually know the movement. Most wiccans, everywhere, are regular people with regular jobs, just getting through life like everyone else. They/we have kids, mortgages, bills, etc, and also devote ourselves to our spiritual practice.

Well let me tell you, my friend, it’s hard pressed to find this group of “Wiccans” you speak about. And one sure doesn’t see them across the country. Definitely few and far between in the wiccan community. NO one speaks of being guided by a Leader. Perhaps the problem is that you see from your point of view too.

When people are young, we often take some time to get our lives together. As people get older we usually manage, whatever our religion. It is merely false, whatever your alleged personal experience, to think that wiccans are more likely to be unemployed or out of touch with mainstream life than catholics.

Those that I know, got their lives together and got out of needing to be something they read in a book. Or continued on the path, on the dole and making nothing of themselves. If you know different people who do different things, where is the guidance for those who are lost?

That statement is both false and contradictory. If they’re writing books, then they are guiding those who would otherwise make it up. However, no-one makes big bucks writing occult books. It just doesn’t happen unless one is one of the very, very few who break out into mainstream sales.

Most folks who write books on Wicca are Wiccans who want to share their insights and ideas with the community. If one is lucky one finds a publisher, but even then the chance of making a dime past one’s advance (if ever) is minimal.

Then you have no clue how the publishing world works today.
I can have a book published, no one pays me an advance, and the new publishing establishment prints as they need them.
My kids are working on Illustory right as we speak.
They will be published too.
Stick it into the local crystal shop/reader/palmist shop and you have your audience.

If you know 20 wiccans, in fact, I’d be surprised. Your complete lack of accurate data suggests you’re just short on information.

Ditto.

Wiccans work in medicine, science, education, computer jobs, the military and every other high-end position. Those interested in real data on wiccans and neopagans (rather than bigoted mischaracterisation) I’d recommend “Voices From The Pagan Census; A National Survey of Witches and neo-Pagans in the US” by Berger, Leach and Shaffer

Written by !Neo-Pagans!

Shall we judge catholics by this thread?

I have no problem standing behind the CAF posters.

I am an elder, in NE Ohio.
Send me some Pagan kids who need direction, and I could give it a try…

It’s very convienient that you are exactly from where I know Wiccans. Well if you are leading these people, you are not doing a very good job. You need to look around in your area and see who you are leaving behind. You won’t have to look far.

 

[IanCorrigan]

** Well let me tell you, my friend, it’s hard pressed to find this group of “Wiccans” you speak about. **

You obviously haven’t looked. You just have no real information on the subject, and are generalizing a bigoted stereotype based on limited experience. I have been part of the Pagan movement in the US for some 30 years - I do know what I’m talking about

** Those that I know, got their lives together and got out of needing to be something they read in a book. **

Yes, we know - you knew a few folks when they were young. It just doesn’t amount to enough information to have an opinion that’s worth much on what wiccans, and wicca, are like.

I thought you catholics had some books…

** Then you have no clue how the publishing world works today. I can have a book published, **

Yes, I know all about on-demand self-publishing. If one hustles, one can make a few dollars - far from enough to pay the rent, in most all cases.

**It’s very convienient that you are exactly from where I know Wiccans. **

It is indeed, because it tells me how out of touch you are with the actual scene. As I say, anyone can pretend to be a wiccan.

Well if you are leading these people, you are not doing a very good job. You need to look around in your area and see who you are leaving behind. You won’t have to look far.

And they don’t have to look far to find good guidance. We don’t do the door-to-door thing, though.

Ian

 

[netmilsmom]

. I have been part of the Pagan movement in the US for some 30 years - I do know what I’m talking about
As I say, anyone can pretend to be a wiccan.

Perhaps you prove that point.

 

[KarenNC]

Catholic Charities is very well know.

Yes they are and rightfully so. They do a lot of good in the world. I would suggest you refer your relatives to them (as well as any number of state mental health or other assistance agencies) if they are in as much need as you indicate.

Personally, many of the Neopagans I know (including myself) are focusing our charitable contributions through assistance and charitable networks that are already established–the Red Cross, Heifer Project, Second Harvest, Nature Conservancy, Habitat for Humanity, Goodwill, SPCA, local shelters for the homeless or battered women, Crisis Assistance ministries, etc. Yes, even some organizations that are run by Christians . It simply makes more sense to me to work through an organization that has already established the (expensive and sometimes complicated) infrastructure needed to actually get the things needed to the people who need them rather than try to recreate it just to have “Neopagan” attached to the name.

We are also, like individuals in any other religion (or none), working in person volunteering in our communities and helping those we know personally who are in need–bringing a meal, helping get transportation to an appointment, babysitting, etc. Give us a couple of millenia of organizational infrastructure, then we can compare apples to apples.

** Written by !Neo-Pagans! **

From the University of South Carolina Press website, publishers of the “Voices From the Pagan Census”
sc.edu/uscpress/2003/3488.html

"Helen A. Berger is a professor of sociology at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She is the author of A Community of Witches: Contemporary Neo-Paganism and Witchcraft in the United States, published by the University of South Carolina Press in 1999. Berger lives in West Newton, Massachusetts.

Evan A. Leach is an associate professor of management at West Chester University. The former director of research at the Wharton Cultural Management Project at the University of Pennsylvania, Leach holds a Ph.D. in organizational behavior from Yale University. He resides in West Chester.

Leigh S. Shaffer holds a Ph.D. in social psychology from the Pennsylvania State University. He held faculty positions at Pennsylvania State University and Nebraska Wesleyan University before joining the faculty of West Chester University, where he is currently a professor of sociology. Shaffer lives in Downington, Pennsylvania. "

I have no idea whether the authors are Neopagan, and, if so, whether they are Wiccan. If they are, then their credentials certainly do not support your characterization of Neopagans.

Aside from that, who should I go to to find accurate published information about Catholics? Will I be better asking Catholics or should I instead depend on Muslims or Baptists?

IF you can find a real professional person who thinks themselves Wiccan, I can give you twenty lost people who are not being helped by any making cash off of it. How about if instead of “not wanting to cause a controversy” they do a little for the people they are snowing with their books, websites and actions?

Again, speaking personally, the Wiccans I know (or have known in the last few years) are/have been in the following professions: social worker, massage therapist, manager of a bookstore, computer programmer, computer network administrator, business analyst, bookstore owner, administrative assistant, birth doula, management trainee at an ice cream store, stay at home moms, small business owner, romance book author, special education teacher, nurse, doctoral candidate, retail clerk, daycare provider, etc, etc. None of these people are making any money off of “being Wiccan.”

** I had contact with people all over the world on the internet chatrooms.**

Have you considered that the ones who aren’t “living in their parents’ basement” might have better things to do with their lives and time than hang out in internet chatrooms?

caslon.com.au/messagingprofile7.htm
“Although around 23% of US and Australian internet users report having visited chat rooms, new and repeat visits decrease substantially after age 25. Hinner’s 2000 paper Statistics of Major IRC Networks: Methods and Summary of User Count suggests that most chat room interaction is with anonymous others.”

There are also studies that suggest a correlation between increasing amounts of time spent on the internet and a decrease in social interaction.

jcmc.indiana.edu/vol10/issue1/shklovski_kraut.html

 

[dessert]

thanks Ian, not having any particular religion I don’t have your perspective or experience

After you get hit by a few cars it doesn’t hurt so much anymore

Seriously now, that’s hardly a good analogy – kids get messed up by all kinds of religions and other things. You may say I’d be playing with their immortal souls; I don’t believe in an eternal soul. If they get religion I’ll happily drive them to church, temple, coven, or whatever and support them in their choice even though I will not agree that their beliefs are correct. I am there to provide ethical guidance and help when they screw up (and if I’m any indication, they will – but they’ll also have a hard time putting anything over on me ), not to indoctrinate them into a religion from birth. That indoctrination was done to me in my childhood, is primarily responsible for my current attitude towards organized religion, and it is the reason I will not do it to my hypothetical children.

Oh I’ve heard this one before it was all my parents fault

If you have been really harmed I am sorry there should not be any abuse in any religion.

I’m glad you believe in immortal souls:thumbsup: dessert

 

[Ahimsa]

** Written by !Neo-Pagans! **

From the University of South Carolina Press website, publishers of the “Voices From the Pagan Census”
sc.edu/uscpress/2003/3488.html

"Helen A. Berger is a professor of sociology at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She is the author of A Community of Witches: Contemporary Neo-Paganism and Witchcraft in the United States, published by the University of South Carolina Press in 1999. Berger lives in West Newton, Massachusetts.

Evan A. Leach is an associate professor of management at West Chester University. The former director of research at the Wharton Cultural Management Project at the University of Pennsylvania, Leach holds a Ph.D. in organizational behavior from Yale University. He resides in West Chester.

Leigh S. Shaffer holds a Ph.D. in social psychology from the Pennsylvania State University. He held faculty positions at Pennsylvania State University and Nebraska Wesleyan University before joining the faculty of West Chester University, where he is currently a professor of sociology. Shaffer lives in Downington, Pennsylvania. "

I have no idea whether the authors are Neopagan, and, if so, whether they are Wiccan. If they are, then their credentials certainly do not support your characterization of Neopagans.
%between%

I don’t know about the other two, but Helen is not a Neo-Pagan.

 

[netmilsmom]

Have you considered that the ones who aren’t “living in their parents’ basement” might have better things to do with their lives and time than hang out in internet chatrooms?

This makes the most sense of anything I have seen written by you or others defending this lifestyle.

So the question is, why are you wasting your time here trying to convince a bunch of people who would be hard pressed to even identify a Wiccan, when so many people who claim to be part of this religion, are so lost?

Why aren’t you in those chatrooms? Or hanging out in the New age stores? You know so much about these people, you need to help them. Make them into decent members of society and people will see Wiccans for good people not off the wall nuts.
Tell them that getting a job is more important than casting a spell.
That the palm reader that just opened up the street will more than likely take all the money you have.
That crystals may emit a certain energy but they are not going to find you someone to love you unless you get out of the house and stop sulking.
That the Psychic hotline is a scam.
That sex with anyone that comes along leads to diseases.
Or such little respect for yourself that you just continue and eventually hate what you are.
That you can actually apply for a job or take a class without consulting Tarot cards.
That your child is not a playtoy and should not be given to just anyone so that you can do your Wiccan thing.

I saw this stuff, a lot.
Maybe you haven’t because you haven’t frequented the chatrooms or hung out with the average Wiccan.
Please get there, please tell them.

Because people are doing this stuff and if you know how they can get out of it, it is YOUR responsibility to tell them. For Pete’s sake, they’re not going to listen to us.
There is a 15 year old homeschooled person on this thread who is having problems in his homelife. He can’t type up a full post with proper grammar. Have one of you said anything about what should be done? Like get off the computer and study some language arts? No. You come in, dismissing my personal experience and not giving a bit of helpful advice to that poster. In my experience, that is the Wiccan movement.

The only good I saw come out of the Wiccan movement, were those people who came out of the Wiccan movement.

 

[Caesar]

The only good I saw come out of the Wiccan movement, were those people who came out of the Wiccan movement.

Indeed

 

[KarenNC]

why are you wasting your time here

Initially, I came here to these forums after learning about the posting of the “Anti-Neopagan Apologetics” article in “This Rock.” I have stayed because I hope I can help be a positive example of a Neopagan.

Why aren’t you in those chatrooms? Or hanging out in the New age stores? … Make them into decent members of society and people will see Wiccans for good people not off the wall nuts.

I actually do this frequently, online and IRL. Do you think Catholics are the only ones who read these forums? Do you think that because I don’t denigrate and hurl abuse at someone that I have no interest in helping them in their struggle for emotional and religious maturity?

I can no more “make” someone into a “decent human being” than you can. They have to do that themselves. I can only provide the best example and encouragement possible. I can’t “make” an alcoholic become sober, a drug user stop using drugs, or someone bent on following useless religious advice to their detriment from doing so. It breaks my heart at times and frustrates me no end at others, but it is the truth.

If I could, many members of my extended family (including my parents) would not have wasted untold thousands of dollars over the past 30 years (or more) that were needed for other purposes on Christian “preachers” that I consider charlatans–Pat Robertson, Jim and Tammy Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, etc.
They would not be giving the rent money so that “God will bless them” or out of fear that if they didn’t give the last they had for a prayer handkerchief to bring them prosperity, it would prove they trusted the Devil instead of God.
They would not be pressuring a relative to take back the husband that sexually molested the couple’s child because “it’s all right now, he’s asked God for forgiveness (and it was probably just the Devil enticing him through her).”
Another relative would not have left her husband and children to run off with the minister (who was also married and had young children).
They would not be accusing each other of having illnesses and disasters “because they didn’t trust God enough.”
They would not be spending time on their knees to get a job or find someone rather than getting up and doing something to help themselves, saying “God will provide.”
They would not be spending the money they need to feed and clothe their children or buy needed medicine for themselves to pay 10% of their net income to the church when they are already on welfare because a preacher told them to do so–“it’s God’s will and He can’t bless you if you don’t.”
They would not believe they have to stay in a relationship with a lying, cheating, abusive husband because ''it’s God’s will that women be submissive in all things" and that it must be her fault for not being “a good enough Christian example to him” that he beats her.
The unmarried pregnant teens (and yes, there have been several in my extended family–enough evidence to me that abstinence only education isn’t a perfect answer) would not be so afraid to tell their parents that they had “sinned” that they didn’t get decent prenatal care.

Are you in the chatrooms with these people? Are you hanging out in the Christian bookstores? They’re “yours,” after all, even if they aren’t Catholics (as much at least as Wiccans are “mine”) and to judge by the number of televangelists and crusades each year by them, there are a whole lot more of “yours” than there are of “mine.” They are Christians, following leaders they believe are telling them the truth about God when they say that if they don’t raise enough money in x amount of time Jesus is going to “take them home” or that only with enough financial support can the preacher be able to pray away the hurricane threatening their homes like he did the last one.

If the only ones calling psychic hotlines were Pagan, there’s no way they could stay in business. There’s simply not enough of us to finance them.

** For Pete’s sake, they’re not going to listen to us.**

Given the tack I have seen you take so far, are you surprised?

**There is a 15 year old homeschooled person on this thread … Have one of you said anything about what should be done? **

Actually I have, just today, in fact. You are welcome to go over to the “old road” thread and read some of the things I have said to him or her. I hope that many of the posts by Neopagans who have been civil, reasonable and applied common sense will also prove to be good examples to him or her.

The point we have been trying to make to you is that there are people in the Neopagan movement working to dispel the media stereotypes in hopes that it will lessen the issue of those more interested in shocking someone or playacting than in actually following a religion.

 

[Steadfast_love]

They are writing books about Wicca and making big bucks, not doing a thing to actually guide those who are making it up as they go along.
IF you can find a real professional person who thinks themselves Wiccan, I can give you twenty lost people who are not being helped by any making cash off of it.
How about if instead of “not wanting to cause a controversy” they do a little for the people they are snowing with their books, websites and actions?

I know several profesional wiccans/pagans/neopagans (Sorry I can’t tell the difference!) that got rich (multi-millions!) in the tech boom. After the tech bust they sold their antique pinball machines and authentic magick texts for tens of thousands of dollars, and now, from what I can tell, they’re flat out broke.

The neopagan philosophy I’ve been exposed to is that it is foolish to horde wealth but wise to spend. There’s an almost religious zeal to spend the bottom dollar. And they’re not ashamed to beg, oh no! They’ll happily take your bottom dollar too. By the rule of three you’ll get three bucks for every one they take.

If you gave any of my Neopagan buddies a million dollars, they’d spend it all double quick and have a great time doing so. They don’t have kids (or if they do, they don’t care about them) and they’re accustomed to being broke so they don’t feel a need to save money, except for big ticket items like vacations, houses and warhorses. (But never cars! They eschew automobiles!)

It doesn’t work with teenagers where everyone is broke, but once they’re old enough, a few of them start earning and host the gailas for the broke ones. Then when the money’s gone, someone else plays patron. Anyway, I wonder if what you see as sloth is actualy just neopagans living according to their philosophy? I mean, would hardly be fair to go to a nunnery and condemn: “They’re all single and poor! It’s like they took a vow of poverty and chastity or something!”

 

[netmilsmom]

I can no more “make” someone into a “decent human being” than you can. They have to do that themselves. I can only provide the best example and encouragement possible.

That is exactly what I am talking about. You can’t make but can guide. Instead of dispelling myths with Catholics. Dispelling myths with “wiccans” , those who have the wrong idea, might be a better idea.

If I could, many members of my extended family (including my parents) would not have wasted untold thousands of dollars over the past 30 years (or more) that were needed for other purposes on Christian “preachers” that I consider charlatans–Pat Robertson, Jim and Tammy Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, etc.

We are not talking about Christians guiding Christians (yes, I do tell people about Medjugoje and the sham) We are talking about real wiccans guiding people who are taking the name and using it as an excuse.
When someone does the same with the word “Catholic” you bet we are up in arms.

The point we have been trying to make to you is that there are people in the Neopagan movement working to dispel the media stereotypes in hopes that it will lessen the issue of those more interested in shocking someone or playacting than in actually following a religion.

Try challenging those who are playacting and doing it to shock. Perhaps if people would work to guide your lost members, there would be no media stereotypes.

 

[netmilsmom]

Anyway, I wonder if what you see as sloth is actualy just neopagans living according to their philosophy?

No, what I see is a bunch of 20 to 30 year olds living off their parents and the government and spending everything they get.

See how they use the lifestyle as an excuse?

 

[netmilsmom]

I have to train little humans to be adults today.
I bid you farewell.

I pray that those who are using this as an excuse will wake up and I pray that those who seem intelligent enough to help them, will.

 

[Steadfast_love]

No, what I see is a bunch of 20 to 30 year olds living off their parents and the government and spending everything they get.

See how they use the lifestyle as an excuse?

They don’t use the lifestyle as an excuse, they use an excuse to live the lifestyle. Think for a sec: they cast spells, get free money, spend it all and >poof< it replenishes just like magic!

 

[dessert]

e New age stores? … Make them into decent members of society and people will see Wiccans for good people not off the wall nuts./Catholics are the only ones who read these forums? Do you think that because I don’t denigrate and hurl abuse at someone that I have no interest in helping them in their struggle for emothan you can. They have to do that themselves. I can only provide the best example and encouragement possible. I can’t “make” an alcoholic become sober, a drug user stop using drugs, or someone bent on following useless religious advice to their detriment from doing so. It breaks my heart at times and frustrates me no end at others, but it is the truth.

If I could, many members of my extended family (including my parents) would not have wasted untold thousands of dollars over the past 30 years (or more) that were needed for other purposes on Christian “preachers” that I consider charlatans–Pat Robertson, Jim and Tammy Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, etc.
They would not be giving the rent money so that “God will bless them” or out of fear that if they didn’t give the last they had for a prayer handkerchief to bring them prosperity, it would prove they trusted the Devil instead of God.
They would not be pressuring a relative to take back the husband that sexually molested the couple’s child because “it’s all right now, he’s asked God for forgiveness (and it was probably just the Devil enticing him through her).”
Another relative would not have left her husband and children to run off with the minister (who was also married and had young children).
They would not be accusing each other of having illnesses and disasters “because they didn’t trust God enough.”
They would not be spending time on their knees to get a job or find someone rather than getting up and doing something to help themselves, saying “God will provide.”
They would not be spending the money they need to feed and clothe their children or buy needed medicine for themselves to pay 10% of their net income to the church when they are already on welfare because a preacher told them to do so–“it’s God’s will and He can’t bless you if you don’t.”
They would not believe they have to stay in a relationship with a lying, cheating, abusive husband because ''it’s God’s will that women be submissive in all things" and that it must be her fault for not being “a good enough Christian example to him” that he beats her.
The unmarried pregnant teens (and yes, there have been several in my extended family–enough evidence to me that abstinence only education isn’t a perfect answer) would not be so afraid to tell their parents that they had “sinned” that they didn’t get decent prenatal care.

OK, Karen and Reborn

I read your “old road” thread and I have read everything you have written so far, but I will not be lumped into your “catagories”.

I am not being paid to talk to you and not asking my one God for any special blessings on me and I would never ask you for any money and in fact I am using up my tylenol of 500 pills to keep from climbing the walls .

I donot watch Pat anymore or good old Jimmy and we don’t critizize these people because we are also suppose to have a christian att.

I challenge you if you like to take on challenges of “different religons” to go back and read read the bible again one one more time!!!

I don’t control the weather but have sent soe money to the prison ministry which maybe some neo are in and some christians and some to help the hurri people but no one coerced me into it and no one made you either and No one is paying me for all the stupid paper I print with all the "stuff’ you put out
Are you going to take my challenge???

God can bless you Karen and heavens knows why I still keep praying but I will because, even though I am not getting paid ?

BECAUSE GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY SON, SO THAT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM MIGHT NOT PERISH BUT MIGHT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE JOHN 3; 16

FOR HIS SAKE NOT MINE AND MIGHT I REMIND YOU YOU ARE A GUEST SO THE PROTS HAVEN’T EVEN WANTED TO TALK WITH YOU BUT WE HAVE
IF A TASK IS ONCE BEGUN, NEVER LEAVE IT TILL ITS DONE. BE THE LABOR GREAT OR SMALL, DO IT WELL OR NOT AT ALL.

I HAVE GLORIFIED THEE ON THE EARTH; I HAVE FINISHED THE WORK WHICH THOU GAVEST ME TO DO. JOHN 17; 4

AMEN which means it is also finished as far as I am concerned also!!! But i will still pray for your soul…dessert