Good person that doesn't believe in God?

[NextElement]

I was discussing God today with a friend, and he happens to be an atheist. He believes all religions teah the same basic principles (peacefulness, good character, morality, etc) and that all that is needed for “salvation” is to be a good person. He can’t believe that I believe people like Ghandi and atheists that help the community and are good people would most likely not go to heaven (although I know I cannot judge who will or will not).

So it guess it’s a fair question he is posing: Why do we believe that one has to accept Jesus as his savior and follow the teachings of the Catholic Church to get to heaven? Why can’t someone who is an atheist but who does good deeds every day reach heaven?

Thanks and God bless!

 

[polytropos]

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “Lo, we have left everything and followed you. What then shall we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold,[a] and inherit eternal life. 30 But many that are first will be last, and the last first.

People are not saved because they are good. Everyone is good to an extent, but no one is good absolutely as God is good, whether they are Christians or whether they are atheists. We do not merit salvation but have to ask for forgiveness.

That said, Catholics also do not pronounce on the subjective culpability of unbelievers. We do not know where Gandhi is. We do not know where good-hearted atheists are.

 

[NextElement]

That said, Catholics also do not pronounce on the subjective culpability of unbelievers. We do not know where Gandhi is. We do not know where good-hearted atheists are.

Yeah, just clarifying on that, I didn’t tell him that I believed Ghandi was in hell. I told him there was no way I could know the state of someone’s soul, but that I believed belief in a God was vital to salvation.

 

[Della]

I was discussing God today with a friend, and he happens to be an atheist. He believes all religions teah the same basic principles (peacefulness, good character, morality, etc)…

These elements that religions have in common are part of God’s natural law. God has implanted within all human hearts knowledge that some things are beneficial and others are not. Because of this, St. Paul teaches us that all men are culpable before God for having this law, and for violations of natural law.

and that all that is needed for “salvation” is to be a good person. He can’t believe that I believe people like Ghandi and atheists that help the community and are good people would most likely not go to heaven (although I know I cannot judge who will or will not).

Being “good” is not quite all we need. For we can deceive ourselves as to what the true good is due to having our nature corrupted in the Fall. Besides, all good comes from God, so if we reject God we reject his grace to be truly good as God is good and not merely not bad, as men think of it. God gives everyone a certain amount of his grace–enough to realize the truth and to follow it. If someone acts on that grace he may be saved without knowing who Christ is, for Christ’s death redeemed all men. But it’s a much harder way to go than to have the assurances given through knowing Christ in his Church, which he established for our salvation.

So it guess it’s a fair question he is posing: Why do we believe that one has to accept Jesus as his savior and follow the teachings of the Catholic Church to get to heaven? Why can’t someone who is an atheist but who does good deeds every day reach heaven?

Thanks and God bless!

Having already explained how non-Christians can be saved (see the CCC paragraphs #846 - 848), I have to ask, if your friend is an atheist, who therefore doesn’t believe in God, in heaven, in souls, an afterlife, etc., then why should he be concerned about what anyone believes about those things–if they don’t exist what difference does it make to him? I don’t ask this to be contentious towards him, but only to cite that it makes no sense to be concerned about the eternal destiny of Ghandi when, according to atheist beliefs, the man is dead and gone and that’s it. It sounds to me like your friend is either trying to put you in a corner or he really isn’t as much of an atheist as he thinks he is.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I have noticed that atheists tend to say they are good people, that they haven’t murdered or robbed anyone. (that’s up for debate since the pill has been used widely) Funny how they never compare themselves with the likes of Mother Teresa. If one must earn their way into heaven by being good, you’d think they would compare themselves with Mother Teresa and ‘work harder’. But if there’s no heaven in the after life, why put the effort to be good? Why not be the low life they compare themselves to?

 

[JRKH]

I was discussing God today with a friend, and he happens to be an atheist. He believes all religions teah the same basic principles (peacefulness, good character, morality, etc) and that all that is needed for “salvation” is to be a good person. He can’t believe that I believe people like Ghandi and atheists that help the community and are good people would most likely not go to heaven (although I know I cannot judge who will or will not).

So it guess it’s a fair question he is posing: Why do we believe that one has to accept Jesus as his savior and follow the teachings of the Catholic Church to get to heaven? Why can’t someone who is an atheist but who does good deeds every day reach heaven?

Thanks and God bless!

This is a very good question and one that we all need to ponder on…

Many “names” are given to the supreme being. Many descriptions and human characteristics too. But what is the essence of the Creator and if one worships this essence without actually knowing the name (ore believing in a given description) will they be saved? This is the thing that many have pondered on.

Does the name that we call the supreme being have any bearing on our salvation or is it more important that we worship that which the supreme being truly is?

“God is Love” - St John tells us in 1 John 4:7-8 - and those who know Love, know God.
So - perhaps the question you must ask yourself is this - is your friend loving? Does he see Love (Agape) in it’s purest sense as the highest good?
If he does, then what dies this say about his knowledge of God? What does this say about what he truly believes?

An Atheist may reject a given description of God - or the image of Christianity portrayed by all too many “Christians” - or reject the “God of the Bible” based on things they see in the OT etc.
But if God is Love and, according to Jesus, we must be perfected in Love (Mt 5:48), and your friend sees Love as the highest good…well…I think that there is much hope for such a one.

Now the above assumes that the person is truly an "A"theist and not an "Anti"theist.
Antitheists seem to have a lot of anger - - ant that works against becoming perfected in love.

Just some thoughts

Peace
James

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Having already explained how non-Christians can be saved (see the CCC paragraphs #846 - 848), I have to ask, if your friend is an atheist, who therefore doesn’t believe in God, in heaven, in souls, an afterlife, etc., then why should he be concerned about what anyone believes about those things–if they don’t exist what difference does it make to him? I don’t ask this to be contentious towards him, but only to cite that it makes no sense to be concerned about the eternal destiny of Ghandi when, according to atheist beliefs, the man is dead and gone and that’s it. It sounds to me like your friend is either trying to put you in a corner or he really isn’t as much of an atheist as he thinks he is.

I can’t speak for the OP’s friend, but it’s safe to say that people of all religious stripes just don’t like being called a bad person. An assault on one’s character will naturally be defended. It makes plenty of sense to be concerned about whether people like Ghandi are deemed good if it’s to break down the (IMO false) notion that one can’t be good without the christian God. It’s clear that when someone presents an argument like that it doesn’t mean the person either secretly or unconciously believes in that god.

But if there’s no heaven in the after life, why put the effort to be good? Why not be the low life they compare themselves to?

Is it better to be good because one chooses to be or because one fears punishment? I sometimes hear people like apologist Eric Hovind state that if there was no Heaven he’d be committing all sorts of crimes. Most of the people are know are christian and while they may believe in a Hell, I firmly believe that they do good because they are good people and would continue to do good if they felt there was no afterlife.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Is it better to be good because one chooses to be or because one fears punishment?

Neither. Both are quite good and rational. But the person who chooses the good because he sees that it is good, and not because it will lead to something else he considers good, gets the picture.

Perhaps that is why we believe atheists have a chance at Heaven - because God alone brings the peace and good in a society you seek by “being good”.

I sometimes hear people like apologist Eric Hovind state that if there was no Heaven he’d be committing all sorts of crimes.

What would be irrational in doing so? What would good and evil mean in a world without a supreme good?

 

[Della]

I can’t speak for the OP’s friend, but it’s safe to say that people of all religious stripes just don’t like being called a bad person. An assault on one’s character will naturally be defended. It makes plenty of sense to be concerned about whether people like Ghandi are deemed good if it’s to break down the (IMO false) notion that one can’t be good without the christian God. It’s clear that when someone presents an argument like that it doesn’t mean the person either secretly or unconciously believes in that god.

My point was that to the OP’s atheist friend what difference does it make who is good/not good if we are all merely worm food? Who sets the standard of good vs. evil? Why should it matter if someone was a social idealist or a mass murderer? Even a mass murderer may think he is good – that is the depths to which we can deceive ourselves.

Is it better to be good because one chooses to be or because one fears punishment? I sometimes hear people like apologist Eric Hovind state that if there was no Heaven he’d be committing all sorts of crimes. Most of the people are know are christian and while they may believe in a Hell, I firmly believe that they do good because they are good people and would continue to do good if they felt there was no afterlife.

Those who follow Christ in “spirit and in truth” know that we do so not out of fear of punishment but out of love for God and for our fellow men. Love is the operative word, not fear. Holy awe of God, for who he is–the Creator of all that is, including man, ought to give us pause if we want to deliberately offend him. But, he loved us too much to leave us with that idea alone. Rather, he gave of himself to restore us to what he created us to be when we chose to defy his love for a “dish of pottage” (biblical reference: Genesis 25:29-34) – beings created in his image who love him and each other as he loves us.

 

[Xuan]

This is a very good question and one that we all need to ponder on…

Many “names” are given to the supreme being. Many descriptions and human characteristics too. But what is the essence of the Creator and if one worships this essence without actually knowing the name (ore believing in a given description) will they be saved? This is the thing that many have pondered on.

Does the name that we call the supreme being have any bearing on our salvation or is it more important that we worship that which the supreme being truly is?

“God is Love” - St John tells us in 1 John 4:7-8 - and those who know Love, know God.
So - perhaps the question you must ask yourself is this - is your friend loving? Does he see Love (Agape) in it’s purest sense as the highest good?
If he does, then what dies this say about his knowledge of God? What does this say about what he truly believes?

An Atheist may reject a given description of God - or the image of Christianity portrayed by all too many “Christians” - or reject the “God of the Bible” based on things they see in the OT etc.
But if God is Love and, according to Jesus, we must be perfected in Love (Mt 5:48), and your friend sees Love as the highest good…well…I think that there is much hope for such a one.

Now the above assumes that the person is truly an "A"theist and not an "Anti"theist.
Antitheists seem to have a lot of anger - - ant that works against becoming perfected in love.

Just some thoughts

Peace
James

Hi JRKH,

That was beautifully put! It was like reading my own thoughts, but they were worded much better than I could have worded them.

Thank you,

Xuan

 

[Charlemagne_III]

What often seems to get lost in these discussion about atheists getting to heaven is the teaching of Jesus himself, which is clearly and forcefully declared at least three times in the gospels.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.*This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40

How can you break the first and greatest commandment and expect eternal reward for doing so?

This is not to say an atheist can’t steal his way into heaven near the end.

 

[Della]

What often seems to get lost in these discussion about atheists getting to heaven is the teaching of Jesus himself, which is clearly and forcefully declared at least three times in the gospels.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.*This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40

How can you break the first and greatest commandment and expect eternal reward for doing so?

This is not to say an atheist can’t steal his way into heaven near the end.

Indeed. In each of these citations is the unspoken, although well understood by the Church caveat that the denial of Christ and the non-belief must be deliberate, with full knowledge of what they are denying, and with their full will. Some atheists are atheists because they simply don’t understand some aspect of Church teaching or they’ve never encountered the faith or they have such an aversion to bad Christians that they can’t believe. God takes such things into consideration when it comes to their culpability. This doesn’t mean that the atheist hasn’t put himself into great danger by his atheism, but rather that, in the end, only God can judge his heart, and indeed, the hearts of those who claimed they believed.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

This doesn’t mean that the atheist hasn’t put himself into great danger by his atheism, but rather that, in the end, only God can judge his heart, and indeed, the hearts of those who claimed they believed.

Yes, the believer and the unbeliever are alike to be held accountable for their sins. If we repent, we can be saved. Without repentence, it would seem all is lost. That goes both for believers and unbelievers.

The final death scene in the movie “God’s Not Dead” makes this point forcefully, and the dying atheist knows it.

 

[openmind77]

…
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16…

If you believe that then you should believe the next few lines too:

Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Mark 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover

Anyway, I guarantee that if you drink a deadly poison, you will get hurt, maybe even die.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

If you believe that then you should believe the next few lines too:

Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Mark 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover

Anyway, I guarantee that if you drink a deadly poison, you will get hurt, maybe even die.

Are you mocking Christ?

I don’t think this forum was invented for that purpose.

Try a little more love?

 

[petras52]

openmind…as you have just witnessed, questioning puzzling verses in the bible is not allowed by the apologetics…

 

[tonyrey]

If you believe that then you should believe the next few lines too:

Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Mark 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover

Anyway, I guarantee that if you drink a deadly poison, you will get hurt, maybe even die.

Don’t Hindus believe in miracles?

 

[tonyrey]

What often seems to get lost in these discussion about atheists getting to heaven is the teaching of Jesus himself, which is clearly and forcefully declared at least three times in the gospels.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.*This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40

How can you break the first and greatest commandment and expect eternal reward for doing so?

This is not to say an atheist can’t steal his way into heaven near the end.

Belief is not determined by what we profess but how we live.

 

[openmind77]

Don’t Hindus believe in miracles?

Sure, Hindus believe in miracles. But if you believe you are special and that you deserve a miracle, you probably won’t be granted one.

But firm believers in Mark 16:16, should definitely test Mark16:18 .

 

[Della]

Sure, Hindus believe in miracles. But if you believe you are special and that you deserve a miracle, you probably won’t be granted one.

But firm believers in Mark 16:16, should definitely test Mark16:18 .

No. “Testing” God as you suggest is the grave sin of presumption. All of Jesus’ promises are conditional not absolute, in the way you suggest. What the passage means is that if we should be bitten we can expect that, if it is God’s will, we will be healed. Handling snakes is a metaphor for dealing with the dark forces of the devil. Sometimes we need to directly face such forces, and if we must we will not be harmed. We are not to deliberately take up snakes, like some of our Fundamentalist brethren do, and then expect we will not be bitten and perhaps die, again, that’s the sin of presumption.

Jesus often employed metaphors in order to drive home a point, such as plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand if either causes us to sin. His meaning is that we are to avoid occasions of sin so that we will not be tempted to sin. The Bible is not the kind of book that can be read cold, with no prior theological understanding or instruction. It’s not a cookbook or science book, it speaks of the mysteries of God, which need proper discernment and application.