It sounds at the end a bit clumsy, because we are restricted to the vagaries of English structure, but yes, of course nothing fools God, as clumsily as we might have to say that. Only we have then to consider what constitutes “fallen nature.” And that can be a can of worms.
fallen nature includes many sins. Resentment, anger, making jugdgments out of predjuces etc.
Let’s debate then. Let me know what you think the pill has to do with atheists specifically, and not with Catholics.
Yes, that Bible passage is accurate regarding how anger and such can cause disease. I am very happy for you that you had the courage and willingness to let go of anger. That is not an easy thing to do. Blessings on you!
Totally agree. I think it is one of the strengths of good apologetics to NOT “spout” verses in isolation. Certainly it is OK to use a specific verse,but one needs to be very aware of the context of the passage.
We do know what constitutes our fallen nature. It is three-fold. Firstly, when man fell our nature became corrupted so that we do not always do what is right. Secondly, our intellect was darkened, which means we cannot always discern the truth. And thirdly, our will was weakened so that we do not always do what is right. It takes more than natural power to set this right because it is not merely a natural problem, but primarily a spiritual one. Jesus embodies the solution in his life, death and resurrection, in which he became one of us to redeem us from our fallen nature so we could take on his divine nature. This begins with baptism and is a life long endeavor because we cannot be perfected in this life, but we can love God and our neighbor as Christ loved us through the power of the Holy Spirit. On our own we can achieve many great things, but we cannot regain our true nature, as God intended us to have, without his remedy, which is faith in Christ. And faith in Christ is an active thing not merely believing, but doing and becoming, as well.
Human definitions of good and Godly definitions of good are two different things
Yes the Church has an opinion on this but is it rather complicated.
Hope my answer is of some help…I fear it may not be though…
I believe that it is. The God we worship as Catholics IS Love and one who knows Love, knows God (1 John 4:7-8). So I believe that it is entirely possible to worship God without knowing it.
Wow. No kidding!!!
Yes, after decades as a Catholic, I have a good idea what the Church says. There is another, for me, much more believable hypothesis: What is called the “fall” is a description of the development of the kind of awareness that humans use to distinguish themselves personally from the world around them. What we “fell” out of was animal instinct and the “eden” of that simple state. In other words, the “fall” was the birth of our ability to discriminate, or a step up in the evolution of awareness. Second, we discovered that we can’t know everything and actually made a lot of things up in the effort to survive. So we became aware of our own ignorance. Third, we had the ability to make choices, so we made those on the information we had, and very often were wrong. So instead of acting instinctively with no thought, we were slowed by consideration. That had to be overcome by learning and training. A modern example of this is how people go into denial in many emergencies. The people who act competently in those emergencies are the ones who went through one form of training or another. Some would call that training “spiritual.”We do know what constitutes our fallen nature. It is three-fold. Firstly, when man fell our nature became corrupted so that we do not always do what is right. Secondly, our intellect was darkened, which means we cannot always discern the truth. And thirdly, our will was weakened so that we do not always do what is right. It takes more than natural power to set this right because it is not merely a natural problem, but primarily a spiritual one. Jesus embodies the solution in his life, death and resurrection, in which he became one of us to redeem us from our fallen nature so we could take on his divine nature. This begins with baptism and is a life long endeavor because we cannot be perfected in this life, but we can love God and our neighbor as Christ loved us through the power of the Holy Spirit. On our own we can achieve many great things, but we cannot regain our true nature, as God intended us to have, without his remedy, which is faith in Christ. And faith in Christ is an active thing not merely believing, but doing and becoming, as well.
Very interesting post…I’ve actually had similar kinds of thoughts…but never could express them.Yes, after decades as a Catholic, I have a good idea what the Church says. There is another, for me, much more believable hypothesis: What is called the “fall” is a description of the development of the kind of awareness that humans use to distinguish themselves personally from the world around them. What we “fell” out of was animal instinct and the “eden” of that simple state. In other words, the “fall” was the birth of our ability to discriminate, or a step up in the evolution of awareness. Second, we discovered that we can’t know everything and actually made a lot of things up in the effort to survive. So we became aware of our own ignorance. Third, we had the ability to make choices, so we made those on the information we had, and very often were wrong. So instead of acting instinctively with no thought, we were slowed by consideration. That had to be overcome by learning and training. A modern example of this is how people go into denial in many emergencies. The people who act competently in those emergencies are the ones who went through one form of training or another. Some would call that training “spiritual.”
Yes, Jesus does symbolically embody the solution in the story of His life, death and resurrection. There are books that explain why and how that is, so I won’t go into that now, but it is important to go past mere belief and devotion in the area that that symbology is felt to be pertinent to. As you say, that is a life long effort, continuing even after one realizes that they cannot be separated and never were from their real nature. One’s persona will never be and cannot be perfect, as it is temporary for these dimensions.
The religious way you describe is very useful to many who persist, convinced that there is an ultimate goal and reward of salvation. There are wonderful examples of this, such as St. John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Sienna, Meister Eckhart, St. Francis of Assisi, and many others. If what I have said seems contradictory to that, it really isn’t. It is simply that the language symbology in many institutions has become, to my best observation, overly complicated as exemplified by the post above. It just isn’t that complicated if one looks deeply. But that is still work!
Thanks for your note. Yes, the “scientific method” wasn’t extant in the days of recording even more ancient legends in writing some 4K years ago. Science, medicine, spirituality, all were sort of an amorphous mass. How those started to separate out, or, more interestingly, how they might have glomed together from an earlier time, is all very fascinating.
Yes - I think that one of the things that has kept me from posting my “half baked thoughts” here on these matters is just this - I didn’t want to be misunderstood…or seen as contemptuous or whatever.
Amen -
Nice Chatting with you too.
IOW, rationalization trumps revelation. Men simply pulled themselves out of the mire and became a rational being. Yes, all this occurred to me several years ago when I was going through a crisis of faith. It was when I was in the Assemblies of God and not allowed to use my brain. I nearly went your route, limiting mankind to what he can contain in his own head. But, what kept me from pursuing that was the realization that God is God, and I’m not God. That may sound simplistic, but God is simple. He simply is. He doesn’t ask us to figure him out or determine why we are here. He knew, as fallen beings we’d make up ideas to suit our fallen nature instead of listening to him. Mankind has been doing that since Adam and Eve. The first result was self-deception which led, perhaps inevitably, to murder. No, it is too easy for us to deceive ourselves. When it comes to spiritual things I will trust in revelation over rationalization every time.
I’ve seen such books. Full of, again, rationalizations that explain faith away. Well, the bottom line is this. Either Jesus was a real person or he wasn’t. Either he died on the cross and rose from the dead or he didn’t. If he didn’t we are lost and limited to our own understanding and can never rise above it. We are worm food whose existence means nothing more than the worms that feed on the dead. As C. S. Lewis once wrote (I paraphrase) what a grand and glorious negation that is. Mankind striving and wondering and living and dying as if he had purpose only to die out and enter oblivion. The perfect tragedy so loved by writers of fiction. But the reality is that God is and that we are answerable to him whether we like it or not.
Thank you for the bone: “the religious way…is very useful to many who persist.” So, all the great saints and theologians were only mouthing symbols of some greater truth? What greater truth? That we are only mud with brains? That idea may appeal to you, and blessings on you if it does, but the truth is we were created in God’s image. He wants us to share in his divine life, which is life itself, not enter into negation and oblivion. Death is not the end. Life has swallowed up death and we can partake of life if we wish it because Christ lived, died and rose from the dead to ensure that we can.The religious way you describe is very useful to many who persist, convinced that there is an ultimate goal and reward of salvation. There are wonderful examples of this, such as St. John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Sienna, Meister Eckhart, St. Francis of Assisi, and many others. If what I have said seems contradictory to that, it really isn’t. It is simply that the language symbology in many institutions has become, to my best observation, overly complicated as exemplified by the post above. It just isn’t that complicated if one looks deeply. But that is still work!
IMO atheists can be good people, but not necessarily moral people.