good points of islam

[Byzantine_Wolf]

When the muslims took over spain, they were very peaceful and let everybody resume with their lives and live in harmony. However when the christians eventually got control of spain, they forced every muslim (man, women or child) to convert to christianity or die.

That’s actually a popular myth, as there are many examples of Muslim persecutions of minorities in the peninsula. For example, Jews in Granada were massacred throughout the 11th century, In fact, the famous Jewish philosopher Maimonides had to eventually flee the Almohad persecutions in Cordoba and fled with his family into Africa. He later wrote, “The Arabs have persecuted us severely and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us…Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they.”

 

[ZAKI]

That’s actually a popular myth, as there are many examples of Muslim persecutions of minorities in the peninsula. For example, Jews in Granada were massacred throughout the 11th century, In fact, the famous Jewish philosopher Maimonides had to eventually flee the Almohad persecutions in Cordoba and fled with his family into Africa. He later wrote, “The Arabs have persecuted us severely and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us…Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they.”

Assalam,

I’ve never heard of anything like that. Which source is it? Because my history-teacher knows his stuff and he agrees with me.

wasalam

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I’ve never heard of anything like that. Which source is it? Because my history-teacher knows his stuff and he agrees with me.

Not to sound condescending, but this is a high school history teacher? I mean this as no personal attack against your teacher specifically, but…well…high school education is not the pinnacle of the scholarly world. I know there was plenty I found out later that my high school teachers told me wrong.

Jewish sources of the time recall the persecution of the Muslims. If you read the hadiths of what Uthman and many others did shortly after Islam gained power in the Arabian peninsula, you might be shocked at what many of the companions of the prophet did.

It certainly doesn’t end at the Iberian peninsula. Muslims took children from Christian families in the Balkans and forced them to serve as Janissaries, forced conversions took place sporadically throughout the region, and churches were regulated so much that they couldn’t even play bells. I have an icon on my wall of a saint who was martyred in Constantinople because he refused to convert to Islam - a testament of supposed gentle Muslim rule so many people who follow popular history pontificate.

Of course the greatest conundrum of the argument that Islam was peaceful in these regions is the mere fact that Islam spread by the sword - they conquered North Africa and southern Spain, and were seeking to conquer France before they were stopped in battle. In the east they took the Byzantium Empire and even got as far as Vienna.

 

[sedonaman]

…
Also do not judge a religion by its people but by the religion itself.
…

If that is the case, then Islam should be rejected because it contradicts itself:

…Anyone can stand up and claim to have a message from God or about God. But the question is, as people who sincerely want to know, how are we to determine whether or not someone is actually speaking the truth from God? How are we to know if they are speaking divine truths or if they are just pretending or delusional?

… Essentially, there are only two choices. Mohammed can confirm previous scriptures and apostles and attempt to claim validity for himself by means of those past apostles and scriptures. Or, Mohammed can deny those previous scriptures and apostles and stand alone by himself as one voice speaking against them.

To understand the significance of this, we must understand that Mohammed admittedly performed no miracles…to attest to his message [and this] is made even more ironic by the fact that according to the Koran some of the previous apostles, which the Koran appeals to for validation, did perform miracles.

…While a strong case will be made that Christianity and its sacred texts actually deny Islamic beliefs and Islamic sacred texts, this is not the case with Islam. Islam actually endorses and in fact relies upon the divine legitimacy of both Judaism and Christianity as religions established by God. We will demonstrate this point thoroughly by quotes from the Islamic sacred text, the Koran.

…In the Koran, Islam’s dependence upon Judaism and Christianity comes primarily in two forms. First, the Koran constantly asserts that the apostles who founded Judaism and Christianity are God’s apostles and of the same merit as Mohammed himself.

Second, the Koran actually specifically and unequivocally affirms the God-inspired nature of both Jewish and Christian scriptures. As we establish these two forms of endorsement, we will also discuss the practical necessity, which motivates Islam to make such affirmations of Judeo-Christian apostles and scriptures.

But, the fact that Islam itself affirms the divine origin of Judeo-Christian apostles and sacred texts dramatically alters the dynamic of our analysis of the two religions. Instead of having a scenario in which each religion denies the other’s claims and sacred texts, Islam actually endorses and relies upon the divine trueness of Judaism and Christianity.

So long as both religions declared each other to be false, we’d have to decide which of the two (if either) was true. But since Islam inherently and repeatedly relies on Judaism and Christianity being of divine origin, the claims and sacred texts of Judeo-Christianity would have to be compatible with Islam. If the sacred texts of Judeo-Christianity contradict Islam while Islam upholds their reliability and divine origin, then Islam is in contradiction of itself.

On the one hand, Islam claims Judeo-Christianity and its sacred texts originate from God and from other apostles like Mohammed. But on the other hand, what if these religions and their sacred texts deny or contradict Islam? This would mean either one of two things.

First, Mohammed and Islam are in contradiction of what the Koran itself repeatedly declares to be God’s apostles and God’s scriptures. Or second, Judeo-Christianity and its sacred texts are incorrect on all points and issues where they contradict Islam. But if the Judeo-Christian apostles and scriptures, which the Koran affirms as God’s work, are in error, then they cannot be God’s work as the Koran claims. And that would mean that the Koran is in error for affirming them as God-given predecessors, in which case Islam would also be nullified.

In either case, if the Judeo-Christian beliefs and sacred texts contradict Islam and the Koran, then Islam is in error through contradiction, not just contradiction with Judeo-Christianity, but contradiction with itself because of the endorsement claims made by the Koran.

… [Detailed analysis follows here] …

Conclusions about Islam

So, we conclude from this intensive study that we must reject Islam’s claims… There are two main reasons for this rejection. First, though Islam has historically identifiable origins, these origins do not provide any reason for concluding that Mohammed’s teachings are an accurate view of God, the universe, and mankind. Instead, the circumstances surrounding the origin and rise of Islam can clearly be understood simply as a product of normal human affairs and ambitions.

…the evidence that Islam does offer to substantiate the accuracy of its claims has shown to be invalid. Islam contends that it is the final successor to the Judeo-Christian tradition, which it claims expected Islam and which Islam also claims to fulfill and confirm. However, as we have shown above [the long analysis] neither Judaism nor Christianity allows for the teachings of Mohammed. And additionally, Islam undermines the fundamental claims made by both of its supposed predecessors.

Islam is also invalidated by its claims to come from and uphold the Judeo-Christian tradition, which Islam claims is from God. Since the Judeo-Christian tradition in no way permits Islamic teaching, then Islam must be in error either in its own teaching, which deviates from that of Judaism and Christianity, or Islam must be in error in its assertion that the Judeo-Christian tradition is of God.

Despite the fact that Islam is an Evidentiary religion, an examination of that evidence has revealed that it does not substantiate the claims of Islam. But instead, the evidence offered actually contradicts Islam. So, for both of the reasons summarized in the preceding paragraphs, we reject the claims of Islam.
From http://www.biblestudying.net/islam1.html

 

[planten]

I am very much impressed by the words of advice to some one s follows:

From Zaki: There are bad people in all religions including your own and for a few examples: the ku klux klan, the crusades, the spanish inquisition, etc.
Also do not judge a religion by its people but by the religion itself

.

**That is a very good post. Only Zaki forgot to include the Bloody Mary, Queen of England along with KKK and crusaders. She was a Catholic and had killed many of her own people.

Also not to forget the foolish christian Crusaders who killed many christians in Jerusalem not knowing that they were christians. How sad, How bad!!!**

 

[jakasaki]

I am very much impressed by the words of advice to some one s follows:

.

**That is a very good post. Only Zaki forgot to include the Bloody Mary, Queen of England along with KKK and crusaders. She was a Catholic and had killed many of her own people.

Also not to forget the foolish christian Crusaders who killed many christians in Jerusalem not knowing that they were christians. How sad, How bad!!!**

As usual planten, stick to the topic.

You want to discuss these other matters, start a new thread…

 

[planten]

Assalam,

islamism is using islam for a political agenda and thus making one aspect of islam more important than another (which is actually more important). For example, groups using “jihad” or “the lesser struggle” and making it more important than other core beliefs such as charity to the poor and fasting.

Actually, the ku klux klan is a christian group, also I already know that the muslims took over palestine and spain. But you will notice something. When the muslims took over spain, they were very peaceful and let everybody resume with their lives and live in harmony. However when the christians eventually got control of spain, they forced every muslim (man, women or child) to convert to christianity or die.

wasalam

Another good true post by Zaki. But (perhaps) the christians will have to deny that truth too.

 

[planten]

Not to sound condescending, but this is a high school history teacher? I mean this as no personal attack against your teacher specifically, but…well…high school education is not the pinnacle of the scholarly world. I know there was plenty I found out later that my high school teachers told me wrong.

Jewish sources of the time recall the persecution of the Muslims. If you read the hadiths of what Uthman and many others did shortly after Islam gained power in the Arabian peninsula, you might be shocked at what many of the companions of the prophet did.

It certainly doesn’t end at the Iberian peninsula. Muslims took children from Christian families in the Balkans and forced them to serve as Janissaries, forced conversions took place sporadically throughout the region, and churches were regulated so much that they couldn’t even play bells. I have an icon on my wall of a saint who was martyred in Constantinople because he refused to convert to Islam - a testament of supposed gentle Muslim rule so many people who follow popular history pontificate.

Of course the greatest conundrum of the argument that Islam was peaceful in these regions is the mere fact that Islam spread by the sword - they conquered North Africa and southern Spain, and were seeking to conquer France before they were stopped in battle. In the east they took the Byzantium Empire and even got as far as Vienna.

**B_W, what ever you have written may be partly true. But it is false to say that jews were persecuted in Madinah. The jews were gilty of many frauds and mischief against the Muslims like stabbing the Muslims in the back. for that they were punished after due process of justice.

The worst thing you have said is that islam was spread by sword. There is no word “Sword” i.e. Saif in the entire Quran. But sword is mentioned at quite a few places in the bibleNT. We have to see the scripture. Does Quran teach forced conversions?? The answer is “No.” Moreover there is clear teaching that “There is no compulsion in the matters of (any) faith.” All Muslism followed that.

If the warring empires, teh Romans and the Persians wanted to annihilate the establishment of Islam, then that was a bad mission. they aske dfor it when the Roman christian king tried to fight the Muslims for no reasons. They (Romans) were ruling in a big area of mideast and Afrika and Europe. May I ask what these christians were doing in Afrika? They had occupied it earlier. When they tried to confront the Muslims, naturally they were defeated (routed). These are facts of history. So it is not any fault of the Muslims. It was the fault of the christians (empires) to ask for trouble.**

 

[sedonaman]

Assalam,
…

When the muslims took over spain, they were very peaceful and let everybody resume with their lives and live in harmony.

Yeah, right. That would be Islamic “harmony” and Islamic “peace” … which means they were allowed to live and nothing else except to pay the jizya. After all, if they were all killed, there would be no one to pay it. In fact, when the jizya became so oppressive, kafirs left and when enough do leave, the area becomes depressed. That’s why Islamic societies are not 500 years ahead of Christian ones, but 500 years behind, if they are that advanced.

 

[jakasaki]

**B_W, what ever you have written may be partly true. But it is false to say that jews were persecuted in Madinah. The jews were gilty of many frauds and mischief against the Muslims like stabbing the Muslims in the back. for that they were punished after due process of justice.

The worst thing you have said is that islam was spread by sword. There is no word “Sword” i.e. Saif in the entire Quran. But sword is mentioned at quite a few places in the bibleNT. We have to see the scripture. Does Quran teach forced conversions?? The answer is “No.” Moreover there is clear teaching that “There is no compulsion in the matters of (any) faith.” All Muslism followed that.

If the warring empires, teh Romans and the Persians wanted to annihilate the establishment of Islam, then that was a bad mission. they aske dfor it when the Roman christian king tried to fight the Muslims for no reasons. They (Romans) were ruling in a big area of mideast and Afrika and Europe. May I ask what these christians were doing in Afrika? They had occupied it earlier. When they tried to confront the Muslims, naturally they were defeated (routed). These are facts of history. So it is not any fault of the Muslims. It was the fault of the christians (empires) to ask for trouble.**

Planten, I’m not going to reply to your post but once again simply say this to you.

Please do not use these light colored fonts. It destroys my vision reading them.

**Please stick with dark colored fonts. **

Thanks Planten…

 

[planten]

If that is the case, then Islam should be rejected because it contradicts itself:

** That was a bad extra-ordinary long post by sedonaman, set up in such a way that it is enveloped in a wrap so that it does not show in the reply post. That is unfair. sedonaman has envolped (wrapped) his/her post so that it does not show in reply. There is only one line from sedonamn above. But nothing else, which is entirely false, is not showing. So a reply cannot be given.**

 

[swplan76]

assalam
I converted to islam two years ago and alhamdullilah it is going fine with me. I especially like the calmness and peace that I feel when I pray or read Quran.

Anyway, In relations to your post, Muhammed (pbuh) never built extravagant buildings and nor did he accumulate wealth, he was known for being humble and gave any money that he had to charity. I need to go now but I’ll fully reply later inshallah.

wasalam

Hey Zaki,
You might be right about the buildings. Wealth - yes, Muhammad instilled Zakat as one of the 5 pillars of Islam - 2.5% of income to the poor, so he definitely was generous. He also accumulated a lot of wealth. Being a warlord, Muhammad took the wealth, land and buildings of those he conquered. He may not have built extravagant buildings, but he did take those that were previously owned by others.

 The main point I was trying to make is that Islam is a religion of Empire.  That is undeniable fact.  In the Bible, Egypt was an empire/oppressor - God liberated them.  Babylon was an empire/oppressor - God liberated them (in less dramatic fashion this time).  Rome was an empire/oppressor - God liberated them (through Jesus - another unique process of liberation).  The reason that Israel was made captive under Babylon is that they had become like Egypt - they had become oppressors (Solomon).  God warned them not to use slaves and not be like their oppressors, but they did it anyway.  The way that Jesus operates is to liberate us and bring us into unique union with God - there is no other way to meet with God except through the blood of Jesus - a pure lamb (pattern repeated intentionally from the Exodus from Egypt so that we would understand).  God doesn't want to conquer us by force - God wants us to "taste and see that He is good" and come to Him because we love Him.  He doesn't want to oppress us, He wants to liberate us.  Islam offers order - rules, schedules, regulations, lists of how to operate as though those things will appease Allah.  God didn't offer those things to humanity in the garden of Eden.  God didn't give them any rules - just one request - don't eat from the tree.  They could not respect His love for them by obeying that one request.  They put on clothes because they were ashamed - modesty was a requirement because they became aware of sin - God doesn't want us to be weighed down by sin - that isn't why He created us.

Islam is a prison.

Did you know that a lot of people who have been in prison go back because they like the regularity of it? They can’t function on the outside. If you didn’t have any sort of order in your life and you came upon a prison, any of us might just set up camp there. I’m saying that though you may not have had much of anything before, Islam is a prison and through Jesus there is much more abundance available to you. If you think prison is good, I can tell you, you deserve much better than that.

God is bigger than religion. Jesus came to liberate us from the systems of religion that would keep us from a relationship with God. Islam promotes religion. The only promise of salvation Allah makes to Muslims in the Qur’an is that they will enter Heaven if they die in battle. Beyond that Allah leaves Muslims with a personal struggle to be the best Muslim they can be and Allah may, or may not accept them based on His supreme judgment. Christianity offers grace, forgiveness - a promise of salvation, not based on religion or works, but based on our acceptance of what God did on the cross through Jesus. God is dedicated and as He has no competition, He has no one to impress - He is undignified in His love for us. He would even allow us to nail Him to a cross and torture Him if we might begin to understand that He loves us more than anything - He would endure even that. I’m a father. I can understand wanting to sacrifice yourself for your kids. I can relate to that kind of invested love. God has that and more for us.

He isn’t the empire, coming to crush us into submission. He is coming, yes. In each of our lifetimes God is approaching, but He won’t be found in the dominating empire. He is gentle. He wants us to come to Him of our own choice. He could push us into believing, but He doesn’t. Relationships between husband and wife, between friends, between parents and children are at their best when the people on both sides of the relationship come together out of common love for one another. If one side feels oppressed, or pressured, the relationship won’t develop as it could - that is what Jesus invites us to have with God.

---

One fundamental question for Christians is: Are we operating like the empire (those to dominate/oppress), or are we operating like the subversive, counter-culture liberators? That is what Jesus did and what He encouraged us to do - we also have to be sure that we do it in the way that Jesus did. He did not raise up an army - He refused to engage in that kind of behavior. He could have and had willing followers, but He shut that kind of thing down. There is only one occasion in which Jesus used violence - it doesn’t report that anyone got hurt - it just says that he turned people out of the temple of God who were trying to make money from temple sacrifices. Again, its important to note that Jesus was hard on religious people, but was very gentle with people who were not considered among the religious elite. He had no words of aggression or hatred for people who were not Jews, or were not following Him. Islam cannot claim this of Muhammad, or Islam.

 

[swplan76]

Assalam,
Very well. Wine is sinful on earth because it contains alcohol and is harmful (even though enjoyable) and that is why it is forbidden. However, the wine in paradise will have no harmful effects in paradise.
Having sexual intercourse with multiple women is forbidden because of the harm it can cause to the society and how it can corrupt it. Children without fathers, corruption, gossip, etc. In paradise, there will be no consequences to having sexual intercourse with the Houris.

Also for another post, women WILL have men to attain sexual enjoyment from and it is said that BOTH men and women will be content with what they have.

wasalam

Clearly Islam presents heaven as being a place where Muslims get to indulge. They get to engage in gluttony. They get to engage in random fornication. In Heaven they are offered many things they are forbidden in life. Heaven, in Islam, is a gluttonous orgy.

Please show me the passages in the Qur’an that state that women will get to share in the gluttonous orgy of heaven - I missed that.

Will the orgy remain heterosexual in Islam’s heaven?

Clearly, the sexual partner is of no importance during the orgy - Muslims will engage at random with the houris in sex. Its not like they will fall in love or be committed to the houris they fornicate with. The sex will not be about commitment, because surely the Muslims will be already thinking about the next houri they will deflower even as they are in the act of sex with a different houri. So basically a houri is a divine prostitute. She is a sexual object to be used and discarded. This seems very contradictory to the God that I know.

Islam presents the idea that people will be encouraged to be gluttonous, greedy, self indulgent, and promiscuous in paradise. Muslims will be thinking all about themselves, “Me! Me! Me!” In Christian thinking, this is what gets someone into Hell.

yep, I’m increasingly becoming convinced that the angel Muhammad met in the cave was Satan.

 

[sedonaman]

** That was a bad extra-ordinary long post by sedonaman, set up in such a way that it is enveloped in a wrap so that it does not show in the reply post. That is unfair. sedonaman has envolped (wrapped) his/her post so that it does not show in reply. There is only one line from sedonamn above. But nothing else, which is entirely false, is not showing. So a reply cannot be given.**

Let me see if I understand you correctly. ZAKI, a self-described Muslim, said …

…
Also do not judge a religion by its people but by the religion itself.
…

…and so I posted an excerpt from an analysis that *** uses Islam’s own texts*** to judge Islam the religion itself. You Muslims raised the issue, and now you say that’s “unfair”?

Look, something isn’t true just because Mohammed said so; it has to survive some kind of theological test and analysis, which I provided; but because it refutes Mohammed, it’s “unfair,” even though it rises to ZAKI’s requirement.

There is only one response to your way of thinking: if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[swplan76]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. ZAKI, a self-described Muslim, said …

…and so I posted an excerpt from an analysis that *** uses Islam’s own texts*** to judge Islam the religion itself. You Muslims raised the issue, and now you say that’s “unfair”?

Look, something isn’t true just because Mohammed said so; it has to survive some kind of theological test and analysis, which I provided; but because it refutes Mohammed, it’s “unfair,” even though it rises to ZAKI’s requirement.

There is only one response to your way of thinking: if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Islam is not about logic. Islam is about a culture. People who are looking for meaning find a culture that will embrace them. It has its own language, clothing, food and it touches every nook and cranny of a Muslim’s life. The appeal is a new life, a new culture. Muslim converts experience a new ritual that directs their everyday experiences. They don’t have a meaningful relationship with God - they have a meaningful relationship with the community and a meaningful relationship with a new culture - but not God.

Christianity is all about seeking God and surrendering to Him more and more everyday, learning more and more who He is (there is no end to Him, so we go deeper and deeper as we seek Him). Christians can also get caught up in the community and culture of religion, but they are meant to be there as a support to a deepening relationship with God. Islam doesn’t have that.

The appeal of Islam is culture… and it is consuming and demanding. People love structure and organization.

The only reason that Israel was given a King after they were freed from Israel was because they wanted to be like the other nations - They were a nation without a king, or so they imagined - God was their king, so God gave them Saul. God is not easy to trust, because he doesn’t sit on a material throne, lording His power over us, He asks us to trust that He is God. Through Jesus, we are asked to live in freedom, letting everything we do be a response to the goodness of God. Islam offers religion and culture in exchange for relationship with God.

We like the organization of religion and culture - I was lost in it for many years, so I know the difference. I belonged to a religious culture that was convinced that membership and attendance would hold power over God come judgement day. I am not aware that any of those people were seeking God - they had religion and culture (there may have been some who were, but they learned to keep it quiet because anything outside of the norm was frowned upon - like in Islam).

Try to be a white guy entering a mosque and join in. It isn’t so difficult in some places, but white guys I know who have tried to convert, or have converted found that there was not much acceptance. Even with Arab clothes and beard grown out… They tried to assimilate, go through all the rituals, they even took on mannerisms, but they still weren’t accepted (it kind of reminded me of how some gay men suddenly become effeminate, or have a lisp once the ‘come out of the closet’). They functioned as second class citizens among the other Muslims. Of course that is just a limited perspective from 3 guys in one city - the most multicultural city in North America. One converted and even with rejection, continued on doing his own thing. Another stayed on the fringes living as a Muslim for a few years, then becoming frustrated with it and isolating himself, then trying again. The last guy gave up on religion all together. Upon realizing how duped he had been by the twisted thinking of Islam, he stepped away from religion all together. I don’t know what he is up to these days.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

B_W, what ever you have written may be partly true. But it is false to say that jews were persecuted in Madinah…

I never said they were persecuted in Medinah, I said they were persecuted elsewhere. What crime were the Jews of Spain guilty of? Or the Christians and Jews of Jerusalem, or the Christians of Constantinople? What punishment did they deserve? Where was the “due process of justice”?

Furthermore, the Jews may have been guilty of “many frauds and mischief” against Muslims (although I think this was not always true), however, if Mohammad comes from the same line as Christ, why would he have entire tribes killed? Christ never commanded entire tribes to be annihilated, and neither did His early followers.

The worst thing you have said is that islam was spread by sword. There is no word “Sword” i.e. Saif in the entire Quran…

Islam was spread by the sword. By the end of the eighth century Islam controlled most of the Middle East, North Africa, and southern Spain, and it was all through military conquest. This is the only reason why the Muslims own those lands today.

I’m also aware of the quote from the Koran that there is no compulsion in Islam - however, the context of this is in regards to non-Muslims interested in Islam only. Otherwise, the Muslims of Mohammad’s time gave a strange application of it. I’ll quote an example I gave Zaki:

Narrated Abu Burda:
…The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’” [Sahih Bukhari 9:58/9:271]

Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, “Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’” [Sahih Bukhari 4:260]

If there is no compulsion in religion, then who cares if a person stops being Muslim? Why burn them? Why kill them? Where is this religious tolerance that I often hear about? Furthermore, explain this:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [S. 9:29; emphasis mine]

Many Muslims claim war in the Koran is only in self-defense, but the order here is clear: don’t stop fighting non-Muslims - even people of the book - until they pay the Jizya and feel subdued. This is the Yusuf Ali translation: Pickthal translates the last part as “brought low”; Shakir translates it as “in a state of subjection.” This is not self-defense, this is aggression and oppression.

The jizya tax and dhimmi system are by themselves sign of an intolerance against other faiths, and here they are in the Koran.

If the warring empires, teh Romans and the Persians wanted to annihilate the establishment of Islam, then that was a bad mission…

I’m sorry, but those are not “facts of history,” because they’re wrong.

The reason the Byzantines were there was because the Roman Empire had previously ruled there, and as the west fell the eastern empire obviously kept their lands. Furthermore, the Romans and Persians were at that time at war with each other, a war which had been costly for both, the latter fact being one of the only reasons Islam spread so rapidly in the region at the initial outset of their conquest.

The very reason war began was because it was started by Mohammad, who sent a threatening letter to the emperor:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
…Heraclius then asked for the letter addressed by Allah’s Apostle which was delivered by Dihya to the Governor of Busra, who forwarded it to Heraclius to read. The contents of the letter were as follows: “In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad the slave of Allah and His Apostle to Heraclius the ruler of Byzantine. Peace be upon him, who follows the right path. Furthermore I invite you to Islam, and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your Arisiyin (peasants)…” [Sahih Bukhari 1:1:6; emphasis mine]

Muslim historian al-Tabari added to this story:

According to Ibn Humayd – Salamah – Muhammad b. Ishaq – Khalid b. Yasar – a very old Syrian, who said: When Heraclius was about to leave the land of Syria for Constantinople because of the report he received about the Messenger of God, he assembled the Romans and said: “People of the Romans, I shall present certain matters to you. Consider what I have decided…let me give him tribute each year, so that I can avert his vehemence from me and find rest from his warfare by means of money that I can give him.” [emphasis mine]

The attacks by the early Muslims against unbelievers were not self-defense.

NOTE: I shortened your quotes to make room for my post, not to hide your arguments

 

[jakasaki]

**

~ snip ~

** The worst thing you have said is that islam was spread by sword.**** There is no word “Sword” i.e. Saif in the entire Quran.

Well planten, they didn’t go around knocking on tent to tent, village to village spreading islam.

Please do take the time and study the early days of islam and how it was spread.

We have already posted over and over the islmaic conquests and they weren’t holding a feather in their hands that’s for sure.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I just thought I’d add my two cents on something…

Try to be a white guy entering a mosque and join in. It isn’t so difficult in some places, but white guys I know who have tried to convert, or have converted found that there was not much acceptance. Even with Arab clothes and beard grown out… They tried to assimilate, go through all the rituals, they even took on mannerisms, but they still weren’t accepted (it kind of reminded me of how some gay men suddenly become effeminate, or have a lisp once the ‘come out of the closet’). They functioned as second class citizens among the other Muslims. Of course that is just a limited perspective from 3 guys in one city - the most multicultural city in North America.

I’m not denouncing what you’re saying, or claiming you’re lying, or saying your friends didn’t experience that, but my experience was much different during my stint in Islam. When I first started attending a mosque in Hampton, VA, no one approached me, ignored me, or treated me in a hostile fashion. I remember one time when I first went there, in western clothes and obviously the white boy, and an Arabic man walked in and gave me an expression - not a mean “I hate you” expression, but a confused “What are you doing here” expression. I said to him, “Assalaam aleikum,” and as soon as I did his face lit up and he shook my hand, saying, “Wa’aleikum assalaam!” When I started going to a mosque closer to home in Norfolk, I felt the same kind of welcoming. The fellows who ran the mosque (we had no imam) even took a liking to me, and after I started coming regularly they would always greet me and treat me warmly. Again, I’m not doubting what happened to your friends - that was terrible, and it shouldn’t be happening any where in any religion. I just thought I’d give an open perspective for the sake of the Muslims here.

I have encountered some weird Arabic nationalism - one girl told me Arabic was the language they spoke in Paradise, while another stressed I should change my name to Arabic as if God wouldn’t accept someone with an Italian last name. However, in all fairness, I’ve met the same thing in some Greek Orthodox churches I’ve been to, with people confusing their nationalism for their spirituality. It’s a danger in any faith, I’m sure.

On another note, I’ve seen what you mean about “the guys who become gay and suddenly have a lisp.” I’ve met converts who overdid the “alhumdulilah” and “masha’allah” thing.

 

[Aydan]

Islam is not about logic. Islam is about a culture. People who are looking for meaning find a culture that will embrace them. It has its own language, clothing, food and it touches every nook and cranny of a Muslim’s life. The appeal is a new life, a new culture. Muslim converts experience a new ritual that directs their everyday experiences. They don’t have a meaningful relationship with God - they have a meaningful relationship with the community and a meaningful relationship with a new culture - but not God.

Christianity is all about seeking God and surrendering to Him more and more everyday, learning more and more who He is (there is no end to Him, so we go deeper and deeper as we seek Him). Christians can also get caught up in the community and culture of religion, but they are meant to be there as a support to a deepening relationship with God. Islam doesn’t have that.

The appeal of Islam is culture… and it is consuming and demanding. People love structure and organization.

Try to be a white guy entering a mosque and join in. It isn’t so difficult in some places, but white guys I know who have tried to convert, or have converted found that there was not much acceptance. Even with Arab clothes and beard grown out… They tried to assimilate, go through all the rituals, they even took on mannerisms, but they still weren’t accepted (it kind of reminded me of how some gay men suddenly become effeminate, or have a lisp once the ‘come out of the closet’). They functioned as second class citizens among the other Muslims. Of course that is just a limited perspective from 3 guys in one city - the most multicultural city in North America. One converted and even with rejection, continued on doing his own thing. Another stayed on the fringes living as a Muslim for a few years, then becoming frustrated with it and isolating himself, then trying again. The last guy gave up on religion all together. Upon realizing how duped he had been by the twisted thinking of Islam, he stepped away from religion all together. I don’t know what he is up to these days.

I have experienced the rejection you mention above by other Christians but not by Muslims of course Islam touches every part of a person’s life but Christians do not have all the rituals but I’d be willing to bet that Christianity touches every part of a devout Christian’s life as well. Why do you have such a negative view of cultures? I see nothing wrong with incorporating culture into your prayer life if it gives you a better relationship with God. How can you know for certain that all Muslims don’t have a relationship with God? I don’t understand what logic you are using to make that assertion and I have to say I think it is an unfair one as well.

 

[swplan76]

I have experienced the rejection you mention above by other Christians but not by Muslims of course Islam touches every part of a person’s life but Christians do not have all the rituals but I’d be willing to bet that Christianity touches every part of a devout Christian’s life as well. Why do you have such a negative view of cultures? I see nothing wrong with incorporating culture into your prayer life if it gives you a better relationship with God. How can you know for certain that all Muslims don’t have a relationship with God? I don’t understand what logic you are using to make that assertion and I have to say I think it is an unfair one as well.

I’d agree, I know all kinds of Christians who are impacted in everyway as a result of their relationship with God - I also know many Christians who are not so much impacted by God as they are by the church culture that is meant to lead them into a relationship with God.

Negative view of cultures…
I really do appreciate various cultures. I was trying to say that some people choose culture over God (not a good thing in my view). I think Islam invites people into culture, not into an authentic relationship with God. Its all about appearances and ritual - culture.

I believe Islam leads people into a distance from what God did through Jesus. Jesus is the only way we can connect with God. The Qur’an supports violence against people of other faiths if the time and situation calls for it. It also condones violence against Muslims who do not agree with each other, or against muslims who are struggling with their faith, or have converted to a different religion.

Jesus offers us something unique - only Jesus leads us to God. That’s pretty basic Christianity - if there were other ways, why did Jesus die on the cross - a littly masochistic of God to torture Jesus if we could just be Muslims and conquer the world throgh violence, or go a more peaceful route and be Buddhists.

Jesus death is actually very important.