Good Pro-Life Arguments

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That is one significant argument for voting for a pro-choice candidate, though a dicey one. Despite the increase in population, the total number of abortions has been steadily dropping since the end of the Clinton era, including through the Obama administration. It remains to be seen if the current administration will do good or ill.
Those figures can be messed with and we should all see back up. Besides the coming of the abortion pill.

What is true, is heavily Democratic states such as New York and California have very high abortion rates.

Strong Republican states such as Utah and Wyoming have lower abortion rates. Even Texas is under the national average and would definitely be considered to be a Conservative state.

Also, states legislate more abortion restrictions, such as Wisconsin, Planned Parenthood clinics have closed in states like WIsconsin and Florida. The administration in power really has little to do with that.

If say, 27 states have Republican governors and legislators, that has a lot to do with the situation, versus having a strong abortion proponent like Obama in the White House.
 
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I actually have, not first hand but knowing the impact it has. It’s brutal. But with the proper palliative care, suffering can be managed and studies have shown that pain is the number one reason for someone to supposedly want this.

Patients can also stop treatment anytime. But I’m not talking about that I’m talking about deliberate murder where the patient in question has given dubious consent that may or may not be of their own will.

This fundamentally changes the whole notion of care and the relationship between doctor patient.

The slippery slope is real. We see limits on what is acceptable conditions for this to be eroding slowly. Now in some places there is euthanasia for dubious “mental illness” reasons.

This cannot be allowed to happen or continue here.
People with ALS or Huntington’s can suffer for 15 to 20 years before they are finally welcomed death. Trust me, if seen and heard the plead to die for many YEARS, with no option to allow for it to happen. I have PSTD from witnessing this horrible demise.

The slippery slope to me is greatly overstated. Oregon has had this in place since 1997, with no abuse. If a person consents, it is fine. If they don’t, then they live. Monitor it closely and punish abusers severely.

Mental illness is not dubious. It is living hell for people who have serious mental illness. If they have tried everything and nothing works and they feel it is there time, who’s right is it for anyone else to argue with them and say they need to suffer more?

I’d rather not flood this thread much further away from its OP, but do have a hard time understanding people’s opposition on this subject. I’m less sensitive to their opinion if they haven’t partaken in the suffering themselves or at least secondhand.
 
You are pro abortion rights. Not pro choice. The latter is a term used by your side to soften the act of abortion as part of the narrative and make it more palpable for the general public to support it. I refuse to acknowledge it as a legit metaphor for being pro abortion rights.

That is, unless you are a libertarian and you support my right to choose anything I want even if you don’t like it.

Otherwise don’t be disingenuous and call it like it is. And no, those on your side who are hostile to pro lifers are not pro choice. They are pro abortion and anti those who disagree with them. Period.
Not sure if you spend a lot of time trying to turn Pro-Choice people to “Pro-Life”. If so, you may wish to consider the way you handle yourself in doing so. It isn’t wise or kind to make a point of telling others what they are and what they aren’t, unless they ask for you to weigh in on that.

I can assure you, I am Pro-Choice. I define what I am. I advocate for each person making their own choice. Incidentally, this isn’t necessarily a reflection on how I would choose for myself. Because I may bind myself to a particular moral code, does not mean I believe everyone needs to be bound to the same moral code with regards to abortion.

Your term of Pro-abortion rights takes things to a much different level. It would imply that I may feel like everyone should have a “right” to an abortion. A “right” to have it paid for with tax dollars. A “right” to terminate a late-term abortion. You have no idea where I fall on these issues, and you certainly shouldn’t assume.

Ultimately, I don’t know of one Pro-Choice person who has changed their mind on this issue due to a Pro-Lifer arguing with them or demonstrating, or even having a polite and cordial conversation. Not a single one, over the course of 40 years, and I know a ton of Pro-Choice people. If that is what you are attempting to do, you may wish to change your strategy. The overwhelming majority of Pro-Choice people are just that. Happy for each and every person to make their own decision to terminate or keep their pregnancy. They aren’t Pro-Abortion, as you paint them. Many wouldn’t have an abortion of their own.
 
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With Action T4, “compassion” was a big reason why that program was put in place. Sound familiar?

The idea really is frightening.
Please back away from the rhetoric and just look at the issue for what it is? Sensible humans can deal with tough issues without having to resort to barbaric control tactics.
 
The Federal government should have nothing to do with it. No planned parenthood clinics and so on.
 
The big thing, is not stereotyping the person you’re talking to. Talk to them as an individual. Talk to them with love and humility. If you’re demonizing those who disagree with you, you’ve lost the argument before you’ve begun.
Excellent post.
 
Many people are even willing to look past Donald Trump’s obvious and explicit moral short-comings for the possibility of having it be illegal.
It doesn’t mean that it is political, but that people think that the immorality of abortion outweighs the presidents flaws.
 
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People with ALS or Huntington’s can suffer for 15 to 20 years before they are finally welcomed death. Trust me, if seen and heard the plead to die for many YEARS (clipped for space)
I believe you. For me I haven’t witnessed it first hand but I do know a very close friend who has and I saw the impact it has first hand. It’s brutal.
The slippery slope to me is greatly overstated. Oregon has had this in place since 1997, with no abuse.
If a person consents, it is fine. If they don’t, then they live. Monitor it closely and punish abusers severely.
The system in Oregon isn’t exactly foolproof and I don’t think the slippery slope is overstated at all. You want evidence? Here you go. Links


https://dredf.org/public-policy/ass...on-assisted-suicide-abuses-and-complications/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...c897f17e185_story.html?utm_term=.3e9ca79143ff
Mental illness is not dubious. It is living hell for people who have serious mental illness. If they have tried everything and nothing works and they feel it is there time, who’s right is it for anyone else to argue with them and say they need to suffer more?
I didn’t say genuine mental illness itself is dubious, it’s not. But in that circumstance the ability to consent is and the reasons given are, for obvious reasons. “Mental illness” can also sometimes be anything you want it to be. So I question how foolproof this “consent” really is.
I’d rather not flood this thread much further away from its OP, but do have a hard time understanding people’s opposition on this subject. (clipped)
Because first, being a pro-lifer, this is also in that domain. Secondly the whole thing is frightening to me for reasons stated. It’s also in my opinion the normalization of the most devastating form of elderly abuse, where unscrupulous family can prey on the vulnerable elderly and convince them this is the best course of action to take. Similar to abortion and good care for women, good palliative care and support can manage many if not all of the symptoms that can avoid the feelings of despair that would make someone want to do this. I also have a hard time accepting that narcissism (I don’t want my family to see me like this!) ought to be a valid reason to accept euthanasia.

Suicide is morally unacceptable according to society. So this ought to be, for the same reasons.
 
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With Action T4, “compassion” was a big reason why that program was put in place. Sound familiar?

The idea really is frightening.
Please back away from the rhetoric and just look at the issue for what it is? Sensible humans can deal with tough issues without having to resort to barbaric control tactics.
I’m just sayin’. I don’t buy the whole “compassion” thing whatsoever. It is not an acceptable reason to accept this.
 
It probably would be best to make abortion illegal first and then target the younger generation for the apologetics.
 
If you think so, then in the name of liberty have at it!

Just don’t expect me to submit to your views. But you can submit to them all you want.
 
No, it’s exactly what it’s about for the majority of American that support choice.

I’m not going to make you do anything, you’re not going to make me do anything.
 
Oh sure. For a legal standpoint anything can happen. Slavery, prohibition, Gay marriage. Anything.

But at that point its not about being “right” or having a better argument. It’s raw conflict theory. And as I said earlier, both Democrats and Republicans are trending pro choice.

I like my odds.
 
You’re oversimplifying it and creating a strawman argument to feed to people.

First off, there’s a distinction between one’s view on the morality of abortion and one’s political view on whether abortion should be illegal or not. The first is about whether people should have abortions. The second is what role should government play in abortion.

The term Pro Life refers to those who feel out of a sense of moral justice that government policies should work to prevent abortions. The primary view is that this should be done by blocking access to abortion. The current Republican approach is to over-regulate abortions to create great inconveniences and to make it economically unfeasible for clinics to stay open. Overturning Roe is about being able to restrict access more directly.

The Pro Choice view sees government regulations on as doing greater harm than good. Indeed, one can be morally Pro Life, believing abortion is immoral, and still hold a Pro Choice position on the role of government regulation and restriction.

There’s a lot of detail that goes into people’s views. In arguing with people about abortion, or any subject, you need to listen to their own views, asking them questions whether than assuming their views perfectly match your every presumption.

Arguments fought like this look like two people yelling past each other. They don’t respond to each other’s words. Some arguments are aimed at baiting the opponent and then attacking. They get frustrated when the individual doesn’t take the bait. “You didn’t answer my question!” Rhetorical and logical fallacies exist all over till the individuals realize they’re not being listened to. Then they start insulting each other’s character, because certainly a sincere person would be hit so hard with my truth, it’d be a glorious victory.

The reality is, good honest debate involves two people coming at each other recognizing that they do NOT understand each other yet. They are mutually openminded. As Chesterton said, the purpose of an open mind is to close it on something solid. I’d add, and then it is to chew on it. Being openminded is simply a willness to listen, to seek understanding more than to seek to be understood. When I open my mind to chew on their perspective, this allows me to find our common ground and our points of departure. And as such, I can say “Here’s where we agree. But more specifically, I believe X, Y, Z.”
Good post. I suppose I could be classed as pro life in that I would be a very happy man if I lived in a world where there were no abortions. But I am pro choice in believing that the choice to have an abortion (at some point) is a choice that MUST be made by the mother (with obvious (name removed by moderator)ut from the father).

It’s the same argument as used for free speech: ‘I don’t support what you do but I would defend your right to do it’.

Cue that argument being thrown back at me in regard to stealing or murder or not buying your round.
 
To be fair, the term “pro-life” was originally coined specifically in reference to the issue of abortion. And that’s still the sense in which most people commonly understand the term.
Indeed. It is a term used to poke people with. As if those who aren’t ‘pro-life’ are somehow ‘anti-life’. When was the last time you saw this type of conversation:

A: ‘I’m pro choice’.
B: ‘Does that mean you have no problem with abortion?’
 
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