Good Religious Orders

[bear06]

QUOTE=misericordie]Again, everyone, bear keeps falling into his same old fallacy of argumentation by resorting to personal attacks on me:

And the personal attacks are? I’m sorry if quoting you when you decide who is a REAL Catholic, REAL priest, REAL bishop or in a REAL order is attacking. Maybe you shouldn’t have said it in the first place?

the POPE must be followed in all he EVER says when NOT talikng on faith and morals, ex-cathedra, or in his ordinary magisterium: one example is that he believes that I am stating that the pope is not to be listened to in faith and morals

.

Hmmm…I think that maybe you just are not reading carefully. I’ve never said you have to follow the Pope outside the criteria you just listed. In fact, I said that you do. Not only do you have to listen, you have to show submission and obey.

Quite the contrary, I will give bear the benefit of the doubt if he can cite where I said in ANY of my 800 or so posts that the Pope is NOT to be obeyed in faith and morals.

I think I’ve repeatedly said that you are the one who links you can judge who is a REAL Catholic, REAL…, etc., etc. etc. It is you who keeps bringing up the whole “I don’t have to follow the Pope’s football team” and St. Catherine of Sienna and St. Paul. What’s your point?

However, the popes are NOT infallible when just giving their own personal (motu propio) opinions on issues:

You consider Ecclesia Dei a personal opinion? Moto Proprio Ecclesia Dei? Where you’re coming from just got a little clearer. Thanks. It’s kind of funny that you would then think the bishops have to spread the TLM far and wide if it’s just the Pope’s personal opinion. Sorry, Ecclesia Dei is to be shown submission and we are to obey in all aspects.

I’d answer a question but I didn’t see one here. How about you answer mine?

 

[drforjc]

I couldn’t tell if anyone had mentioned Fr. Corapi’s order, SOLT
(Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity) so I will.

 

[misericordie]

bear06:

And the personal attacks are? I’m sorry if quoting you when you decide who is a REAL Catholic, REAL priest, REAL bishop or in a REAL order is attacking. Maybe you shouldn’t have said it in the first place?

.

Hmmm…I think that maybe you just are not reading carefully. I’ve never said you have to follow the Pope outside the criteria you just listed. In fact, I said that you do. Not only do you have to listen, you have to show submission and obey.

I think I’ve repeatedly said that you are the one who links you can judge who is a REAL Catholic, REAL…, etc., etc. etc. It is you who keeps bringing up the whole “I don’t have to follow the Pope’s football team” and St. Catherine of Sienna and St. Paul. What’s your point?

You consider Ecclesia Dei a personal opinion? Moto Proprio Ecclesia Dei? Where you’re coming from just got a little clearer. Thanks. It’s kind of funny that you would then think the bishops have to spread the TLM far and wide if it’s just the Pope’s personal opinion. Sorry, Ecclesia Dei is to be shown submission and we are to obey in all aspects.

I’d answer a question but I didn’t see one here. How about you answer mine?

you are beginning to bore not only me, but all who read your over the top extra long posts, as if by so doing add weight to your opionions, to contradict my arguments and thesis based on the teaching of the Church herself. Please do not do like the puritans who when they beleived something, all had to beleive it because THEY said so. Worse yet, your opinions seem to be from a gnostic type of view where YOU have the knowlege which is given ONLY to you, and this is especially true in your formulation of a NEW doctrine which reads something like this: “from now on every word a pope proclaimes, MUST be obeyed!! Or else, even when he says he likes catfish all catholics are to like catfish.” One question for you: can this POPE or any new pope contradict all the previous encyclicals, and magisterial teachings of all previous popes such as pope Saint Pius the X, Pius XII, Leo XIII, etc?
If your opinions were lacking in fallacy I may abide, but in all good justice, no one can follow them or give credability to them because they DON’T tackle my thesis, but rather attack ME. Worse, you are repeating yourself. by just stating that I am a JUDGE of the universe when I state a REAL Bishop, a REAL priest, etc. Let me re-peat what I said previously and will continue to state until you understand, though when I taught this to my seventh grade they picked it up, and I even tested them on this, and they did great: grade which I will use for their report card: the CHURCH declares what constitutes a REAL or invalid priesthood, bishop etc, and states that any of them which deviate from Church teaching are NOT in Communion with the Church, and hence into this schema can be placed the liberal clergy, bishops etc., who BECAUSE of the afformentioned, and their degrading the office they hold: they are NOT real priests, REAL Bishops etc. Also, I beleive I have a RIGHT to make this publically known, and I have told many of them to their face, so if you hold the opinion as YOU have said, that I am a judge and jury, that I am schismatic, etc, in the same right you cling to, I NOW cling to MY right to say: A REAL priest, a REAL bishop etc., and not only that, but you have given me the motivation to point out heresy where I see it(of course however, contrary to your opinion, I will base my filters on the Church’s own declarations.
By the way, lets hope no pope says he likes football, because according to you then I must like football to and I don’t, it’s a drag. The same with catfish, after all something smells fishy here and it is the fact that you use opinion, not FACTS.

 

[dumspirospero]

How about the FSSP

 

[misericordie]

misericordie:

Three points in my thesis: 1. Now you claim that the sspx is going to hell, so that’s why the Vatican is talking with them. 2. They are anti THIS pope. 3. your arguments

1. When not even the Church has declared this or that person to be in hell, you take the privilege to DECLARE the sspx ite inferno(going to hell): this is one absurd, un-theological and childish argument, speaks for itself. 2. You seem to not be well read regarding infallability, ex-cathedra, or ordinary magisterium: One does NOT have to agree with the Pope on non-infallible, non, ex-cathedra, or non ordinary magisterial teachings. For example, lets say the pope likes pizza, do I have to like pizza and MUST all catholics like pizza because the pope said it tastes good? Not. However, if the Pope says that women are NOT to be ordained priest, and that’s the end of it, in an almost doctrinal magisterial way, I HAD BETTER AGREE! There have been cases such as Saint Catherine of Sienna who corrected the pope when needed, and guess what? He listened, the real Pope left France and returned to Rome. Lets say, a NEW POPE comes and dissmantles all the Church’s tradition, and says there is no longer 7 sacraments, there are no longer dogmas, there are no longer confessions, there will no longer be seminaries, people can now live together without being married, and he therefore breaks almost 2000 years of constant CATHOLIC teaching proclaimed by over 200 Popes before him, MUST we listen in all detail to that POPE? NOT. This was the case with Peter and Paul on the issue of circumcission: Paul decided to RESIST Peter’s instruction on that issue.
2. Your argument seems to blow lots of steam on the sspx, rather than on the following mishaps: feminism in the Church, pro-choice catholics, liturgical dancers, priests who celebrate mass and consecrate pizza, jazz masses, rock and roll masses, priests who don’t use clerical garb=never, nuns who kikked the habit but want to be priests, electric guitars in mass and merengue masses, masses where people “are slain in the spirit” and throw themselves on the floor all the whiole imitating animal noices, non catholic 'ministers giving the homily, laity giving the homily, catholic high schools which teach that ALL religions are the same thing (I taught in one), and in mass had non catholic teachers talk and turn thier backs during consecration, and so on, and so on, and so on. Ummm, there seems to be a slight problem with the church in the last 40 years, umm, maybe, just maybe right?
   It’s all about where the real evils lay.

bear06, since you do not want to tackle my thesis, but rather choose to tackle me by fallacy, I will continue now to just post what I previously write, all over again in the hope that somehow it will sink in if YOU re-read what I actually write, not what YOU think it says, as if you are readind a riddle. PLEASE: reading comprehension comes a long way in theological discussion.
All, I bet bear will just attack ME, not my argument. Hence, I will post, and RE-post until he understand or puts effort into trying. Here is my first RE-post:

 

[bear06]

misericordie:

bear06, since you do not want to tackle my thesis, but rather choose to tackle me by fallacy, I will continue now to just post what I previously write, all over again in the hope that somehow it will sink in if YOU re-read what I actually write, not what YOU think it says, as if you are readind a riddle. PLEASE: reading comprehension comes a long way in theological discussion.
All, I bet bear will just attack ME, not my argument. Hence, I will post, and RE-post until he understand or puts effort into trying. Here is my first RE-post:

misericordie, if you want to continue to debate, go ahead and repost our part of the thread to a new thread. I’ll be happy to engage and knock down more of those red-herring arguments you’re so fond of. Some are trying to get their suggestions through on religious orders and they are being lost in the shuffle. Sorry to all that this has wandered into a debate.

 

[misericordie]

misericordie:

bear06, since you do not want to tackle my thesis, but rather choose to tackle me by fallacy, I will continue now to just post what I previously write, all over again in the hope that somehow it will sink in if YOU re-read what I actually write, not what YOU think it says, as if you are readind a riddle. PLEASE: reading comprehension comes a long way in theological discussion.
All, I bet bear will just attack ME, not my argument. Hence, I will post, and RE-post until he understand or puts effort into trying. Here is my first RE-post:

HERE GOES: I REPEAT.