Good strictly secular argument against same sex marriage

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You have this around the wrong way. Marriage is not a pre-existing idea. Unions of people are the pre-existing idea, and civil marriage is a recognition of the special merit of opposite sex unions - their society building potential.

Marriage has always and everywhere been established as a recognition of opposite sex unions.
No it hasn’t, Ancient Greece recognized unions between adult men. Not the pederasty of Athens, full grown consenting adult males.

Feudal and Heian Japan also held a form of formal recognition for SSU. This is simply untrue.
Legislation is not pursued to arbitrarily “ban” anything, t
What was Proposition 8 in California then? That seemed pretty arbitrary and pointless considering how long it lasted and it’s core aim (blocking SSM).
States (with the support of the majority of people) choose to offer recognition of opposite sex unions, for the reason I’ve given, by way of civil marriage. If the people wish to change what is being recognised, and hence the criteria for civil marriage, that is their democratic right. But there is no basis for an arbitrary same sex couple to “demand” that they have some right now.
The people of the UK have voted overwhelmingly in favor of re-defining marriage, the legislation has been passed and yet the right to make this choice is still being condemned on religious grounds by certain faith groups.

It’s going to be a much desired demand when 80%+ voted in favor of it.
 
So you consider allowing same-sex couples to marry to be a greater evil than HIV!

It seems rather extreme to prefer that a same-sex couple be barred from marrying and with HIV rather than permitted to marry and HIV free.
Just how is legitimating a behavior that spreads HIV supposed to stop it?
 
Just how is legitimating a behavior that spreads HIV supposed to stop it?
Marriage as a commitment to an individual also carries with it the concept of monogamy.

Less random sex as discouraged by marriage equals less spread of HIV, which can actually affect the heterosexual community passing through bisexuals.

There is a more complex argument on this point, but this basic premise seems reason enough.
 
No it hasn’t, Ancient Greece recognized unions between adult men. Not the pederasty of Athens, full grown consenting adult males.

Feudal and Heian Japan also held a form of formal recognition for SSU. This is simply untrue.

What was Proposition 8 in California then? That seemed pretty arbitrary and pointless considering how long it lasted and it’s core aim (blocking SSM).

The people of the UK have voted overwhelmingly in favor of re-defining marriage, the legislation has been passed and yet the right to make this choice is still being condemned on religious grounds by certain faith groups.

It’s going to be a much desired demand when 80%+ voted in favor of it.
Are Ancient Greece and Feudal Japan the best models? And did they view those unions as identical to marriage?

I’m not American, but I assume the law changes there sought to make clear what was the original intent- civil marriage recognises opposite sex unions.

And as I said, if the people of the UK wish to change what is being recognised, that is their democratic (even if misguided) right. (And, at least you do concede that those changes are a redefinition of marriage). But why do you object to free speech of the UK minority? Why do you wish them to be silent?
 
Marriage as a commitment to an individual also carries with it the concept of monogamy.

Less random sex as discouraged by marriage equals less spread of HIV, which can actually affect the heterosexual community passing through bisexuals.

There is a more complex argument on this point, but this basic premise seems reason enough.
This brings up a question. What about the situation for an individual who is attracted to both sexes. Should he or she be allowed to have a marriage with both in order to be truly happy? Is society being unfair and bigoted toward this individual?
 
Marriage has always and everywhere been established as a recognition of opposite sex unions.
Viewer;11624942:
No it hasn’t, Ancient Greece recognized unions between adult men. Not the pederasty of Athens, full grown consenting adult males.

Feudal and Heian Japan also held a form of formal recognition for SSU. This is simply untrue.
A same sex union is not a marriage. Marriage has always and everywhere been a recognition of opposite sex unions.
 
Marriage as a commitment to an individual also carries with it the concept of monogamy.
Except same sex couples do not seem to be excited about monogamy.

Beyond Monogamy
Lessons from Long-Term Male Couples In Non-Monogamous Relationships


The Myth of Male Homosexual Monogamy

Sure, we hear about claims like "a gay couple down the street have been together for 30 years … " always anecdotal, usually from a poster who argues for SS “M.” I do not doubt that such relationships exist, but how prevalent is monogamy among partnered gays is the question. Or, I am a former lesbian, and I can vouch most of my partnered gay and lesbian friends were faithful …
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Except same sex couples do not seem to be excited about monogamy.

Beyond Monogamy
Lessons from Long-Term Male Couples In Non-Monogamous Relationships


The Myth of Male Homosexual Monogamy

Sure, we hear about claims like "a gay couple down the street have been together for 30 years … " always anecdotal, usually from a poster who argues for SS “M.” I do not doubt that such relationships exist, but how prevalent is monogamy among partnered gays is the question. Or, I am a former lesbian, and I can vouch most of my partnered gay and lesbian friends were faithful …
,
But by the same token, there are in fact many more heterosexual couples that are not sexually exclusive, and partake in “open” relationships.

This is not a problem unique to homosexuals, but marriage has been proved to reduce the number of open relationships in hetrosexuals.
 
Grace & Peace!
That’s the same link I gave before. “In our paper, we demonstrated that in a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 21 years less than for all men.” They didn’t say their research was wrong; they said they didn’t like how the information was used. And yes, I see that people are living longer with HIV now.
You’re right, they didn’t repudiate their research, they repudiated the uses to which their research had been put as unrelated to the study or its methodologies. Your quotation from their statement is a case in point: it’s out of context. The data collected is indicative of a situation in Vancouver in the late '80s and early '90s and was not intended to be a general statement for the entire male homosexual population worldwide; nor should its data be interpreted as pertinent for all time; nor can it be interpreted as saying anything about what it means to be same-sex attracted; nor is it applicable (as the researchers have stressed) to determining the individual life expectancy of any given homosexual man.
But only if you eliminate the first few years of marriage for male homosexuals.
The point is, though: it has a positive effect. Even in the lesbian population, it has a positive effect, though the comparatively high incidence of suicidality among Danish lesbian women generally (the causes of which remain unknown) seems to have moderated that statistical effect among married lesbians.
This section from the study is relevant to this conversation:

Authors from the Family Research Institute, a US-based institution fighting to restore a world … where homosexuality is not taught and accepted, but instead is discouraged and rejected at every level,”23 have produced a series of reports24–27 in which they claim homosexuality is incompatible with full health25 and as dangerous to public health as drug abuse, prostitution, and smoking.27 In a recent report, the authors obtained data from Statistics Denmark and Statistics Norway and compared the average age at death among men and women who had ever been in a same-sex marriage with the average age at death among people who had ever been heterosexually married.6 Because the age distribution among persons in same-sex marriages was considerably younger than that of people who had ever been heterosexually married, the average age at death among those who actually died during the observation period was, not surprisingly, considerably younger in the population of same-sex married persons. The Family Research Institute presented the lower mean age at death (by 22–25 years) for persons in same-sex versus heterosexual marriages as evidence that persons who married heterosexually “outlived gays and lesbians by more than 20 years on average.”6(p13) Elementary textbooks in epidemiology warn against such undue comparisons between group averages because they lead to seemingly common-sense yet seriously flawed conclusions.28

One of the things all of this serves to bring up, GraceSofia, is this very important point–things are complicated and not always as straightforward as we may initially think and rarely as straightforward as we would like them to be.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
You may wish to moderate your initial assertion here, InSearch–the articles you reference appear to deal with male homosexuals, not same-sex couples generally.

Moreover, your assertion reads to me as analogous to a statement like: “High school freshmen learning Spanish aren’t excited about literature because they can’t read Don Quixote,” or, “a child who’s just taken her first steps must not be very excited about walking because she doesn’t do it very well or for very long.”

The generation of folks who largely came to define “gay identity” in the seventies and eighties were coming out of a situation in which their sexuality was seen as a source of shame or cause of repression–they came to understand sex (as well as public demonstrations of identity) as an expression of freedom or liberation from that shame and repression. Is such an understanding of sex and freedom problematic? Of course it is, for many reasons. But the point is: what it means to be gay has for a long time been colored by the experiences of these first generations after Stonewall. I.e., it has remained intimately tied to concepts of shame and repression (these things remain constantly in the background as things to be overcome even in situations in which they are not actually present), with sex being tied to concepts of liberation.

All that is very simplistic and a mere outline for a more detailed and complex discussion that we’re unlikely to have in these forums. But here’s the point: a generation of same-sex attracted people is growing up now which has relatively no personal experience of their sexuality as something shameful or an object of repression. Consequently, the link between sex and liberation or freedom is much more tenuous for them (as tenuous for them as it is for their opposite-sex attracted peers, at any rate)–from what are they seeking to demonstrate their freedom? With the advent of same-sex marriage, an institutional model of stable relationship (which was unavailable to previous generations) becomes available to them in a way analogous to, if not completely identical with, the marriage model available to their opposite-sex peers–a stable relationship actually looks like something tangible, achievable and desirable. These are radical changes in how being same-sex attracted is imagined and experienced. They are also, perhaps ironically (both for right-leaning types and for the architects of “gay identity”), conservative changes.
Sure, we hear about claims like "a gay couple down the street have been together for 30 years … " always anecdotal, usually from a poster who argues for SS “M.” I do not doubt that such relationships exist, but how prevalent is monogamy among partnered gays is the question. Or, I am a former lesbian, and I can vouch most of my partnered gay and lesbian friends were faithful …
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I wonder if you’re asking this question regarding monogamy in sincerity or merely cynically. Would you honestly be heartened by an upswing in monogamy among same-sex attracted relationships, or would it be the case that the fact of the relationships would remain repugnant to you…so repugnant that whether or not a same-sex attracted person is faithful to their partner is a rhetorical distinction that has no real moral value to you? Just curious.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
Because marriages can produce children. Homosexual unions are sterile; therefore not marriage.
Stephen, I urge you to consider that what is not present in every instance of a thing can hardly be considered essential to it. In the modern Roman rite of matrimony, the prayer for children is optional for couples past child-bearing years. What is optional is not essential.

Traditionally, marriage is understood to have two essential purposes and one conditional purpose. The two essential are: the mutual help, society and comfort of the spouses; a remedy against fornication. The one conditional is: procreation. What is conditional is not essential.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

Stephen, I urge you to consider that what is not present in every instance of a thing can hardly be considered essential to it. In the modern Roman rite of matrimony, the prayer for children is optional for couples past child-bearing years. What is optional is not essential.

Traditionally, marriage is understood to have two essential purposes and one conditional purpose. The two essential are: the mutual help, society and comfort of the spouses; a remedy against fornication. The one conditional is: procreation. What is conditional is not essential.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
I would consider that what is essential and not present in a thing would render the thing broken. Because a thing can be broken doesn’t mean another thing can be called the thing. Because people are born blind does not mean that you can call my finger an eye because it can see as well as a blind eye. The procreative act is essential to marriage; it creates children which have a right to be raised by their biological parents.
Therefore the elderly couples or the barren cannot be engaged in marriage either, but they are.
Yes, they can. See above.
 
Therefore the elderly couples or the barren cannot be engaged in marriage either, but they are.
No. Your reasoning suggests that we ought to expect the State to medically test engaged couples, indeed all couples, to check fertility and health. The state recognizes all heterosexual unions because, as a type, they are unions of societal sigificance. Recognition is not withdrawn due to age or health.

To turn the question around - what characteristic of same sex unions would warrant their recognition by the State?
 
Grace & Peace!

Stephen, I urge you to consider that what is not present in every instance of a thing can hardly be considered essential to it. In the modern Roman rite of matrimony, the prayer for children is optional for couples past child-bearing years. What is optional is not essential.

Traditionally, marriage is understood to have two essential purposes and one conditional purpose. The two essential are: the mutual help, society and comfort of the spouses; a remedy against fornication. The one conditional is: procreation. What is conditional is not essential.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
I might add here that what is essential to marriage is the ability to engage in marital relations. And only opposite sex couples are able to engage in marital–conjugal–relations because only opposite sex couples are sexually complementary. A marital relationship is impossible to same sex couples.

The possibility of procreation is simply a corollary of the ability to have conjugal relations.
 
No. Your reasoning suggests that we ought to expect the State to medically test engaged couples, indeed all couples, to check fertility and health. The state recognizes all heterosexual unions because, as a type, they are unions of societal sigificance. Recognition is not withdrawn due to age or health.

To turn the question around - what characteristic of same sex unions would warrant their recognition by the State?
I would use the ones presently being adopted within the territory I reside. A marriage or union is a demonstration of affection for one individual (regardless of gender) and a union of legal and financial assets.
 
I would use the ones presently being adopted within the territory I reside. A marriage or union is a demonstration of affection for one individual (regardless of gender) and a union of legal and financial assets.
You didn’t finish the answer.

I invite you to read through the links on post #179
My favorite ideas for the readings:

Proponents of same sex marriage are more against something than for something

Fatherhood is reduced to a check-off box

If children were produced asexually and could survive on their own, there would be no such thing as marriage; yet every society, in all time, has marriage between men and women.
 
I would use the ones presently being adopted within the territory I reside. A marriage or union is a demonstration of affection for one individual (regardless of gender) and a union of legal and financial assets.
Which leaves me wondering how same sex relationships (which pass the threshold you’ve described) warrant the State’s recognition? Affection is nice, but…

But more astounding by far is how or why the State would see such a relationship as equivalent to, and warranting the recognition of Marriage. The difference is so fundamental and stark. One is the building block of society, the other is…affection? Hats off to the persuasive powers of those who succeeded in making an impossible argument reality in your territory!
 
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