good things

[Kathrin]

Has anybody else here ever been afraid they may have to give up something they really like in their lives, something they feel very strongly about?

I am very scrupulous. Sometimes when I feel very strongly about something and it makes me feel good, I start feeling guilty.

Like when I have a new dream, something that fills my days - I think: Maybe I should not see purpose in anything worldly.

Struggling between these two extremes:

1. Maybe God makes me feel strongly about this because this is the way for me and I should listen to my feelings

or 2) Maybe because this has become too important for me I should give it up. Thinking: Whenever something gives my life a feeling of purpose and I could not quite imagine NOT e.g. dreaming that dream at the moment, whenever I am afraid I MIGHT have to give something up, maybe that means that I should?

Anybody else have these struggles?

I know I have written about this before here. Somebody said God gives us good feelings too, things we love and feel strongly about. A priest said to me it is ok to get exciited about things. But still I have this nagging sense of dread sometimes when a thought hits like “this has become too important again”. About something that makes me very happy. It has happened more than once in my life, almost every time when I have a new big dream, something I strive for, that really puts a smile on my face and a lightness in my steps.
I start feeling maybe BECAUSE it makes me happy I have to try to give it up.

Kathrin

 

[Lief_Erikson]

No, that’s wrong. Happiness feelings are part of the way God wired you. He gets really excited and happy about things too. In fact, there is a lot in the Bible about the “joy of the Lord.” I recommend you do a Bible study (possibly starting by googling) on the references to “joy” in the Bible. I think you’d be very blessed .

The priest was completely correct in what he told you. The only reasons to step back in your delight in something are:

1. You love it more than you love God.
2. It’s against God’s will. It is a sin.
3. It’s stopping you from meeting responsibilities that you really should meet.
4. You’ve chosen to, or feel called by God to, give it up as a mortification of your flesh or spirit.

I don’t know of any reasons beyond these – or at least I can’t think of any right now – to step back from delighting in something. None of these sound like what you’re talking about at all.

Happiness is not wrong. God would not give you a general order for mortification of your spirit that you never should feel happiness. He is a Father, and fathers love to bring joy and happiness to their children . If you have an earthly father who has given you presents before, in your youth, and gladly offered you the abundance of his house, and took joy in your happiness about receiving his possessions, you should know what I’m talking about, as he’s a type of God the Father.

So try to submit yourself to the teaching your priest gave you: be happy! Not such an awfully burdensome teaching to submit to, is it .

 

[Belle10]

No, that’s wrong. Happiness feelings are part of the way God wired you. He gets really excited and happy about things too. In fact, there is a lot in the Bible about the “joy of the Lord.” I recommend you do a Bible study (possibly starting by googling) on the references to “joy” in the Bible. I think you’d be very blessed .

The priest was completely correct in what he told you. The only reasons to step back in your delight in something are:

1. You love it more than you love God.
2. It’s against God’s will. It is a sin.
3. It’s stopping you from meeting responsibilities that you really should meet.
4. You’ve chosen to, or feel called by God to, give it up as a mortification of your flesh or spirit.

I don’t know of any reasons beyond these – or at least I can’t think of any right now – to step back from delighting in something. None of these sound like what you’re talking about at all.

Happiness is not wrong. God would not give you a general order for mortification of your spirit that you never should feel happiness. He is a Father, and fathers love to bring joy and happiness to their children . If you have an earthly father who has given you presents before, in your youth, and gladly offered you the abundance of his house, and took joy in your happiness about receiving his possessions, you should know what I’m talking about, as he’s a type of God the Father.

So try to submit yourself to the teaching your priest gave you: be happy! Not such an awfully burdensome teaching to submit to, is it .

I agree! :clapping: Great post!!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Joy is one of the virtues when we rejoice in Him:

1 Thes 5:15-18 Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness…

We can pray for temporal goods too:

**Catechism 2010 **Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Catechism 1942 The virtue of solidarity goes beyond material goods. In spreading the spiritual goods of the faith,** the Church has promoted, and often opened new paths for, the development of temporal goods as well**. And so throughout the centuries has the Lord’s saying been verified: “Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well”:
For two thousand years this sentiment has lived and endured in the soul of the Church, impelling souls then and now to the heroic charity of monastic farmers, liberators of slaves, healers of the sick, and messengers of faith, civilization, and science to all generations and all peoples for the sake of creating the social conditions capable of offering to everyone possible a life worthy of man and of a Christian.

 

[baltobetsy]

Wow, what good answers!

I think that as long as you would give up the thing that makes you happy immediately if you knew ***for certain ***that God wanted you to, that you are OK to enjoy it and be excited about it. That would show that you do not place the good thing above the will of God. How would you know that God wanted you to give something up? Belle10 has given you some good indications in her post.

God does not call us to be miserable in this world, or to avoid “worldly” things if we are lay people. You must live in the world, work in the world, and use the things of the world as long as you are alive. If you were a cloistered religious, it would be a bit different. Your rule would specify to what extent you must withdraw. But as a lay person, you have to discern for yourself what direction you will take, and enjoyment is a good guide to what you ought to do.

Betsy

 

[Kathrin]

I think that as long as you would give up the thing that makes you happy immediately if you knew ***for certain ***that God wanted you to, that you are OK to enjoy it and be excited about it. That would show that you do not place the good thing above the will of God.

I have told myself this before too. Instead of taking the approach of “BECAUSE I enjoy something, I have to give it up.”

Of course God has to come first, and His laws must guide us.
And often i ahve prayed that if something was not my way, that God may lead me on the right way.
No, of course I am not saying “no matter what God thinks I will do this”. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here asking this I guess. I am trying to do God’s will.

And more than once actually trusting my instincts and gettingr eally “into” something has turned out to be a blessing, has lead me in a direction, a change maybe I needed at that point.
Still, when it happens again and I have a new dream, something new I want to do or feel strongly about, I STILL feel guilty sometimes… why, I am not sure. Because I am afraid I MIGHT put something above God? But then if God told me what to do, I would try to do EXACTLY what He says. No matter if it involves great sacrifice, be it of something I anjoy, or even to the point of great pain.

Of course if I am scrupulous I could come up with many reasons to make myself feel guilty.

Thanks for listing those points Lief, that was very good!

 

[baltobetsy]

You know, Kathrin, you would be an excellent candidate to receive regular spiritual direction. With your great desire to please God complicated by your scrupulosity, you really could use someone to obey. You seem to visit many places and do many interesting things - surely you could find someone experienced in the spiritual life and the direction of souls who could become your guide. Is there a convent or monastery near your home or the places that you go regularly? Perhaps you could investigate that. There’s a lot of peace to be gained from obedience to a spiritual superior. What do you think?

Betsy

 

[Kathrin]

You mean like, enter a convent? Or just go there for guidance?

 

[Kathrin]

I have been going to confession pretty much every week while I am in San Francisco again for about 3 months.
That IS kind of like spiritual guidance too The one preist I go to, he knows me. This past Sunday I had a very good talk with him, because I felt so overwhelmed from wanting to help everybody, feeling the need to go check on people, etc… he took a big load off me.

My problem sometimes is, I feel relieved, but then something else comes up that’s just slightly different, and then I start doubting again. Especially when it is about how far to go to try to help everybody.

How is that if you ahve a spiritual guide like you say - one person, whom you have to completely obey?
Don’t we have to try to listen to the Holy Spirit? Wouldn’t that make me even more scrupulous if I put even stricter rules on myself?
Or do you mean it would be to keep my scrupulosity in check?

But is anybody except the Pope really… right all the time? And what if I ahd a guide like that and I disagreed with him/her??? I really am not sure if that would be the best thing for me. My moral values are quite high, higher than most people’s, probably. Can’t know for sure of course. So it’s not like I am not hard enough on myself, probably…

 

[Kathrin]

One more thought about things we like, dreams we dream… ok, let’s say a musician who loves playing his instrument and practices a lot and gets a lot of joy out of it, and it has kind of become a big part of his human identity… how POSSIBLE would that even be for him (or her) to just give it up? Without becoming seriously depressed?

Of course, again, if somebody knows for SURE God wanted them to make a sacrifice, that by itself would then maybe make it a joyful thing, because it’s for God?

And our first sense of purpose should always come from our faith, right… but then again, God is above and beyond all the things we may enjoy in this earth, so in a way any sense of purpose we gather from earthly things IS also from God!

Whoa, maybe I am just thinking too much.

It’s human to kind of strive after dreams, identities, a purpose in our lives, right?
Sometimes I feel I do it more than others. Which can feel so good because I can get really excited about something.

But then I get doubts and tell myself: Any sense of purpose that is not clearly just religious may be wrong?

But then again, isn’t EVERYTHING religious in a way!!!???:newidea:

And as long as we remember that it all came from God and that it is very likely a temporary joy and “our hearts won’t rest until they rest in God”, it is ok to have daydreams and stuff like that? To strive for something? To find an identity in something?

Kathrin

 

[puzzleannie]

don’t concentrate on your own pain, your own feelings, concentrate on loving Christ and that will lead to faith, which will lead to service, as Mother Teresa says. Her love for the poor began with her love for Christ which she nurtured by daily Mass and adoration. Start there.

same answer as to your other question
leave off obsessing about this, work on love for Christ, Mass, the sacraments, daily prayer, adoration. From this comes faith, and from faith comes service, and by extension all other works of love (including penitential practices).

 

[Kathrin]

Thanks, Annie.

Just yesterday I decided to try daily rosary again.

For a while I only did it on Fridays and Sundays and on special days, or for special intentions.

You know, my non-scrupulous part, my sane part knows that the way to go is the way of love, and not of stressing myself out and obsessing over what I could feel guilty about.

And I know I can always pray and ask God for guidance.

I also have to be careful on these boards here because I am sometimes almost kind of afraid what somebody might say, because it might make me feel guilty all over again.
For example, so far I haven’t felt called to go to mass every day. I hope you don’t think that is bad.

Kathrin

 

[baltobetsy]

I have been going to confession pretty much every week while I am in San Francisco again for about 3 months.
That IS kind of like spiritual guidance too The one preist I go to, he knows me. This past Sunday I had a very good talk with him, because I felt so overwhelmed from wanting to help everybody, feeling the need to go check on people, etc… he took a big load off me.

My problem sometimes is, I feel relieved, but then something else comes up that’s just slightly different, and then I start doubting again. Especially when it is about how far to go to try to help everybody.

How is that if you ahve a spiritual guide like you say - one person, whom you have to completely obey?
Don’t we have to try to listen to the Holy Spirit? Wouldn’t that make me even more scrupulous if I put even stricter rules on myself?
Or do you mean it would be to keep my scrupulosity in check?

But is anybody except the Pope really… right all the time? And what if I ahd a guide like that and I disagreed with him/her??? I really am not sure if that would be the best thing for me. My moral values are quite high, higher than most people’s, probably. Can’t know for sure of course. So it’s not like I am not hard enough on myself, probably…

When I spoke of a convent or monastery, I meant to go there for a spiritual guide, not to join, unless you receive a vocation in the process!

That’s great that you’re developing a relationship with a priest/confessor on a regular basis. That may be all you need. The thing about obedience is that it is the sure way to peace. When you obey a superior, it is very pleasing to God, EVEN if the superior is in error. I don’t mean you should obey if someone tells you to commit an obvious sin, but in the little, everyday, scrupulous worries of your life. On Sunday, when the priest took that load off your mind, you experienced some of that peace.

Nobody, even the Pope (except when he speaks *ex cathedra *on a matter of faith or morals), is right all the time. But you can DO right any time by obeying. If your superior is wrong, it’s between him and God. YOU please God by obeying. If he’s in error and you obey, God will bring good out of it anyway. See Romans 8:28 - “All things work together for the good of those who love God.”

Here are a couple of quotes from St. Philip Neri that I really like:

”Obedience is a short cut to perfection. They who are living under obedience, if they really wish to advance in the ways of God, must give themselves up always and in all things into the hands of their superiors; and they who are not living under obedience must subject themselves to some learned and discreet confessor, whom they may obey in the place of God, disclosing to him, with perfect candor and simplicity, the affairs of their soul; and they should never come to any resolution without his advice. Nothing gives greater security to our actions, or more effectually cuts the snares the devil lays for us, than to follow another person’s will, rather than our own, in doing good.”
-Saint Philip Neri

”He who always acts under obedience may be assured that he will not have to give an account of his actions to God.”
-Saint Philip Neri

So, yes, it’s a way to keep your scrupulosity in check. Talk to your priest about this next time and see what he thinks.

Betsy

 

[Kathrin]

I went to mass this morning.

 

[gwendolyn]

Dear Kathryn, I feel for you. I too have the same trouble. I live for God and have a hard time meshing living in this world while living for Him. I sometimes feel overwhelmed about what God’s will is for me and I guess at times I could call it panic- it feels so epic. Small things can cause me such anguish. My family is undevoted to living a catholic life and seem to take things with such stride. Yet, I don’t envy them. I think I would rather bear every day of this hardship than feel I have lost sight of Him. I seem to take hardship and suffering much better than I do happiness. Even receiving a beautiful piece of jewelry has made me worry- am I vain for wearing it? Or liking it? Is it even appropriate to own such an expensive trifling thing? One priest gave me a penance of asking for for the gift of peace. I received it that afternoon. An overwhelming sense of peace. For about 1 week I was wrapped in an overwhelming sense of peace and love. I believe that as long as you avoid sin and love God, go to church, confession, etc. then you are going to be ok. Pray for the gift of peace. I can’t offer much else except to let you know we share the same boat. Spending time giving it to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament helps too. Much peace to you!

 

[Trishie]

I don’t know Kathrin! I just know that if I don’t take care of self-denial properly in Lent, God does it for me. Each year something happened to give me a really hard time, emotional, even physical. After the severely broken right wrist in 2005 at the beginning of Lent I finally decided I would make absolute sure to give proper attention to reparation/penance during Lent, not just a self-convenient means.

Actually like you I wasn’t too keen on penance either…and it’s not a bad idea to respond, with good sense of course, to an inspiration if it is balanced. The dear Lord has given me a lifelong means. Who’d willingly give up croissants…and not share in the puff pastry goodies I made my husband and son for lunch. I think it’s hilarious that God took care of my self-denial issue on a regular basis in that I was diagnosed with Celiac disease which means I can’t have anything with wheat (also oats, barley, rye). i don’t wish anything like that on you! However it has brought home to me that some self discipline is necessary along with our prayerfulness.

However if one is scrupulous I think we need to listen to Saints like St Teresa of Avila/Jesus who retored to her brother, "There is a time for feasting, and a time for fasting."
**The scripture which may give guidance to someone who is scrupulous **is Ecclesiastes 3 verses 1-8. Read it carefully for the positives!

 

[Trishie]

Sometimes I write stuff when I’m sorting out my troubles and seeking God’s perspectives. The below may have something to say when we’re scrupulous?

‘Love others…as yourself’
Jesus when You command us to love others as ourselves, You require something more challenging than simply to “love others.” The embedded touchstone in that command is “love your self.”

Many people lack proper self-esteem, making it difficult for them to genuinely value others. However, Scripture exhorts, “value yourself at your proper worth. Who can justify a man who runs himself down, or respect a man who despises himself.”
[Ecclesiasticus 10:28-29]

If we do fail to love ourselves correctly, we cannot accept God’s love. Let us never imagine ourselves hidden from Your mercy: ‘“Can anyone hide in a dark corner without my seeing him?’ asks the Lord.” [Jeremiah 23-24]

The concept of rightly loving oneself in order to love others as God’s precious children may be confused with the selfishness that ruins unselfish self-love. It requires us to reject negative self-talk and responses. “If a man is mean to himself, to whom will he be good?"[Ecclesiasticus 14:3].

Growth in Christian self-love is facilitated by “filling your mind with everything that is true, everything that is noble, and everything that is pure and good” [Philippians 4:8] and serving “in works of love.” It is allowing the Spirit to direct your life and then “you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence. What the Spirit brings is…love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, trustfulness, gentleness and self-control.” [Galatians 5:13, 16, 26, 22-23]

Jesus, help us to fittingly love ourselves. You do not wish us to disparage ourselves but to see ourselves as loved, forgiven children of God. A poor self-image may compare to our perception of ‘clouds’. To observers, clouds appear to be impressive, substantial and tangible. However, within themselves the clouds seem damp, insubstantial and misty.

Jesus, let us not belittle ourselves in comparison to others because of our personal uncertainties and inadequacies. Let us live in sincere acceptance of self, that unique gift of Your creative love. help us to see ourselves as loved children of God. Jesus, help me to know that You really love me. Help me to love myself so that I can love You and others love others truly.

 

[Trishie]

Self made crosses
God, I** want the burdens I carry be only those that You intend**. Let self-made crosses no longer weaken me for genuine crosses that You permit! Lift from me those crosses that I construct out of fear, doubt or self-accusation. Free me of those I subconsciously build in desire for appreciation and love. Free me from crosses of mistaken sense of mission. I want to accomplish the mission that You intend for me.

Free me from the errors of trying to carry and solve others’ problems where it is only my task to offer understanding, prayer, and what help that I can actually offer. Otherwise, in sleeplessness and anguish, I carry a cross of impracticality and helplessness that leaves me worn out, aiding no one. Yet inspire me to undertake, powerfully and sensitively, any means of genuine assistance to others.

Help me to recognise my areas of personal weakness or scarring that otherwise lead me to behave in ways unhelpful to others and myself. Fill me with the Holy Spirit’s prayer for them.

Please give me wisdom, faith, and charity to overcome tendencies and habits that impede me from Your service. Thus I, unhindered, am impelled to You in everything, in cooperation with the graces You desire to flood through my being at every instant, however secretly. Then, I am free, and I rejoice! For by Your mercy alone, my life is centred in You God, in self no longer! February 1981

 

[Trishie]

Self-denial
Jesus, my life is not always centred on You. Wincingly, I drag across the broken glass of trial and duty, inspired by Your willingness to accept responsibilities, regardless of joy or calamity. For in the self-denial of serving others we are freed from selfishness and sin.

You died agonisingly for each person, obeying God’s will despite Your human vulnerability and dread. I stand humbly at the foot of Your salvation, its totality of giving shaming my reluctance to sacrifice self wholly to You. I offer my own will, constrained though it is by cowardice and compromise.

Jesus, how can I carry the cross that Your true followers must bear? How shall I emerge to embrace true commitment in ministry of others? You who are Son of God, sweated blood in contemplation of such abandonment of self. You asked the Father that you might forgo such a burden.

Were not Your divine origin, Your innocence, and Your sacred prayer, enough to save and sanctify us? Yet in anguished awareness deeper than mine or any other’s, You complied humbly with the Father’s will to sever our bonds of unlove, with the shattering of every fibre of Your humanity.

In Your example, therefore, I place my trust and my cause for others’ and my salvation and blessing. I give myself to You, trying to bargain, raising reluctant, pleading eyes to Your thorn-encircled face: “Not this, Lord! I cannot face this loss, that difficulty…”

Dear Jesus, I appeal to You for grace to relinquish my fearful grip, releasing to You the full extent of my bondage. Will You lift this burden with its splinters of lack of charity and trust? I offer the grief of a soul betrayed by itself, in plea for Your forgiveness, healing and for my freedom to love You above all and others as myself, in harmony with Your will.

You know me in my human vulnerability and perfidy, my striving and hope—for You love each person with such depth that I flickeringly suspect its intensity and intimacy. If only I believed, understood and reciprocated! Please accept the teared jewel of this fragile communion of my desire with Yours. Please so draw me into Your love that it is revealed through me in glory and wonder!

You emptied Yourself to become subject to human limitation and suffering. You struggled against ignorance and selfishness, against dullness of spirit and mind in others, battling unto death the powers of evil for our sakes. Battle thus within me also, Jesus, defeating in each moment of my life the power of sin.

With Your flooding love, please drown my protests, pacify my fears and raise me from anxiety regarding pain, grief, disgrace, loss and abandonment. Live in me the cheerful, creative dedication owed to the duties of my vocation and relationships.

As gift to the Trinity, allow me to share fully in the great love You consummate for us. Thank You for the privilege to follow Your path all my life, then to share in Your eternal life with all my family, and friends. 1981

“He who rejects discipline despises his own self; he who listens to correction wins discernment.” [Proverbs 15:33]

So you see I’ve had my battles over such things along with so many of us. I guess I’m scrupulous sometimes!

 

[Kathrin]

Gwendolyn - praying for God’s peace, that is such a wonderful response!

Trishie - thanks for sharing all this. I wish I had more oinline time right now (relying on library computers at the moment); I’ll have to read it more thoroughly another time. I apologize for that! I read most of your prayers though. Very inspiring! Yes, the “love yourself” part of the “Golden Rule”, that has been said to me before. Hm, huh?


Kathrin