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kvj888
Guest
Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation! Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies!
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Does not James 2:24 say “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”?
Some links to help you:
Faith and Works by Catholic Answers
Scriptural Basis
Faith and Works article
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fbl9
Guest
Why does St.Paul write in his first epistle to the Corithians 13:2"…and if i have all fatih as to move mountains, yet do not have charity, I am nothing."?.
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fermat
Guest
No, he says:
New International Version (©1984)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
New Living Translation (©2007)
So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
International Standard Version (©2008)
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
We determine therefore that by faith a man is made righteous and not by the works of The Written Law.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
We conclude that a person has God’s approval by faith, not by his own efforts.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
American King James Version
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
American Standard Version
We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Bible in Basic English
For this reason, then, a man may get righteousness by faith without the works of the law.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.
Darby Bible Translation
for we reckon that a man is justified by faith, without works of law.
English Revised Version
We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Webster’s Bible Translation
Therefore we conclude, that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Weymouth New Testament
For we maintain that it is as the result of faith that a man is held to be righteous, apart from actions done in obedience to Law.
World English Bible
We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Young’s Literal Translation
therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law.
Don’t see that word ‘alone’ anywhere… Maybe I got the wrong translations…
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Julia_Mae
Guest
It always stuns me that the 483,926 posts asking this exact question all seem to come from posters who somehow managed to get to Chapter 3 of Romans without ever reading either Chapter 2 or the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospels.
Here:
Jesus says clearly He will judge us on our works, our works of mercy, for the most part.
Stop thinking you can understand anything by taking bit and pieces of the Holy Word of God out of context and listening to someone twist the Truth into lies.
Go read the Gospels. Now. ALL FOUR of them. Yourself. Start to finish. Take notes.
That’s where the Truth is for you. When you get done and realize you’ve been duped, we will be glad to welcome you home to the One True Church of Jesus Christ where we actually know what He said and believe Him.
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thistle
Guest
Why don’t you have the integrity to admit you are not a Catholic. Having read all your posts in all threads you are clearly here to bait Catholics and have no interest in debate. The only repsonse to all posters comments in all threads is a thumbs up. Are you lost for words??
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steve_b
Guest
When Non Catholics go after Catholics, for good works, they usually quote [Eph 2:8-9] but forget vs 10.
**Eph 2: **
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 *For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. *
What did Jesus do to the fig tree that didn’t produce fruit? He cursed it. Why? Because it didn’t do what God made it to do, that is to produce fruit.
***Mark 11: ***
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”
what will He do to the soul who won’t do good works, which God prepared in advance for him to do.?
*. *
Mt 25:
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Right! I knew it was Matthew, I just c didn’t remember where. Here’s the fuller version I like to refer to:
Matt 25:32-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, g and all the nations* will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Regardless of any other thing we do, if we do not love one another, we are in big trouble.
Matt 25:32-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, g and all the nations* will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Regardless of any other thing we do, if we do not love one another, we are in big trouble.
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Usagi
Guest
He or she could be a Catholic who has recently been confronted with those questions. “Arming” such Catholics is the primary purpose of CA, is it not?
The thumbs-up, rather than constantly reiterating the same point, adds evidence for me that kvj888 is more likely a confused Catholic than an anti-Catholic trying to trip us up, such as we often see on the forums.
Usagi
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fermat
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promethius
Guest
kvj, I see two options of who you are:
- you’re actually a catholic as you claim, and you have this brilliant idea of playing devil’s advocate to get some “stock” threads out there on certain topics. If you need help with apologetics, you should be straightforward and ask “how do I respond to this claim?”. This sort of posing unlimited questions is spamming the board with things that have been answered hundreds of times.
- you’re a protestant posing as a catholic and not aware of or not caring that this sort of “assault questioning” the church is a violation of the forums rules.
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fred_conty
Guest
Paul and James both mention works besides faith.
But “works” do not mean the same thing to both. And here is the reason.
In the old testiment, works were circumcision, purfication rites, dietary rules, Sabboth regulations, etc.
In the new testiment works were the beautitudes, 2 commandments at last supper, baptism, etc.
When Paul mentions works were not important in salvation, he was referring to especially the work of circumcision of the old testamant which was replaced by baptism in the new testament. He was saying that christians are not bound by those old works any longer since Jesus has given us the new baptism in him. Those old works are outdated and are no longer necessary to be followed. In the early church it seems that some christians were thinking that christians were really a full developement of, and an outgrowth from, the jewish religion and therefore circumcism was a preliminary rite prior to baptism. He was saying that we no longer need the law(jewish) of works for us to be saved. Or another way to put it is, we do not need to be jewish first to be christian, or to practise jewish works in addition to christian works.
However since in the new testament the word “works” is mentioned, it could refer to either the old works of the old religion, or this work could be referring to the new works of the new religion. The way to determine this is to look at the whole passage where it is used to make sense whether “works” refers to the old works or the new works.
So Paul would say works are not necessary meaning works relating to circumcision, diet, purification, etc.
So James would say works are necessary meaning works relating to baptism, charity, beatitudes, etc.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Exactly. In fact, I believe the first time Paul mentions “works” in Romans, he uses the phrase “works of the law” and thereafter whenever he says “works” this is what he means.
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I_v_I
Guest
I believe this is incorrect. Paul was not only speaking of “Old Testament works”. This can be verified by the example he uses directly after with Abraham. The Old Testament Law hadn’t even been given yet and Paul argues that Abraham was justified apart from works not the OT Law.
I believe this is indeed including all works in which someone believes they can “earn” Salvation. Whether it be belief in skydiving for Salvation, the beatitudes or circumcision.
Please don’t just write “you’re wrong” without addressing the point of my argument directly (nothing personal to quoted poster, just looking for intelligent discussion from any). There is no point in “discussion” in that case. If we actually discuss the points of the Bible, hopefully all of us can learn from each other. If you can prove my point incorrect through scripture then so be it.
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I_v_I
Guest
While I agree Paul and James were referring to “works” in two different senses, I don’t agree with your conclusion. Paul is telling us that “works” are not a part of receiving Salvation from the Lord (Romans 3:28). He tells us it is only through faith that Salvation is given.
On the other hand, James is telling us that anyone who professes to have faith and yet they do not show their faith outwardly through their lives, then they are false professors and they deceive themselves. Check out the context of James, the focus is on those who claim to believe yet do not live as believers do.
The reason the two do not contradict one another is because Paul is speaking of works before Salvation and James is speaking of works after Salvation. Works are not needed to obtain Salvation, however, they are needed to prove to others we are indeed Saved.
But now you are forgetting verse 8 and 9. Both methods are wrong. We must understand how they go hand in hand.
In 8 and 9 we are told that Salvation is obtained through faith alone apart from works. Verse 10 tells us exactly what James tells us in his book. That after Salvation, we are led to do good works by the Holy Spirit which now dwells in us. These are the works that attest to others that we are truly Saved.
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I_v_I
Guest
If this is how you defend your faith you and your fellow Catholics should feel ashamed.
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eddadonkey
Guest
Nope, this is how I get attention from you.
Apparently it worked
Let me now show you what faith is, from the Gospels themselves.
[25] And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years,
[26] and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse.
[27] She had heard the reports about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment.
[28] For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well.”
[29] And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.
[30] And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, “Who touched my garments?”
[31] And his disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, `Who touched me?’”
[32] And he looked around to see who had done it.
[33] But the woman, knowing what had been done to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him, and told him the whole truth.
[34] And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
Mark 5:25-34
Did you understand this? Jesus credited as faith the woman’s
- Conviction that Jesus can heal her
- Decision to touch Jesus’ garment
- Struggling to get near to Jesus in spite of the crowd
- Actually touching Jesus’ garment
Again, let’s look at the healing of the centurion’s servant.
[5]As he entered Caper’na-um, a centurion came forward to him, beseeching him
[6] and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, in terrible distress.”
[7] And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.”
[8] But the centurion answered him, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed.
[9] For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one,
Go,' and he goes, and to another, Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this,’ and he does it.”[10] When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.
[11] I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
[12] while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.”
[13] And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; be it done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Matthew 8:5-13
Now let us look at this. The centurion
- Was convicted of Jesus’ ability to heal his servant
- Made ready and went to look for Jesus
- Talked to Jesus
Now you just might argue, “But wait, Jesus is so near to us now that we just have to pray, and that is faith!”
Well, isn’t prayer an act? A good work?
Can you be saved if you do not pray? If not, then it stands toi reason that you are saved by faith through a good work.
Now, if you are saved by faith through a good work (prayer), then why couldn’t other good works?
Now let us tackle that possible other objection, Romans 3:28. As one translation says,
We conclude that a person has God’s approval by faith, not by his own efforts.
Let us look at one more event in the Gospels, the healing of the man with the withered hand (Matthew 12:9-13). How did Jesus do the healing here?
Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.”
Now, knowing myself, if I was that man commanded by Jesus I would say, “What?! I have a withered hand here, paralyzed, cannot move it, and you want me to stretch my hand?! Are you crazy?!” But fortunately the man was not me, for
…the man stretched his hand out, and it was restored, whole like the other.
So what happened? Was the power to stretch his hand the man’s? No, it was Jesus’, but still the man obeyed, even though he did not have the power to obey. And that’s faith: to put into action God’s commandments through God’s efforts, i.e. grace.
I worked harder than all of them–yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 1 Corinthians 15:10
And that’s the reason why we cannot boast when we do the works of faith, for it was not us, but God who worked through us.
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James 2:18
God love you and through you.
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I_v_I
Guest
Well we have something in common cause that’s the same reason I responded the way I did to the pic lol.Nope, this is how I get attention from you.
Apparently it worked
I wrote this:
“Please don’t just write “you’re wrong” without addressing the point of my argument directly…”
in my previous post so that the specific points could be argued. I said this because we can go for weeks just posting verses back and forth without an in depth discussion. It just doesn’t work. Much too often I try to discuss Biblical text and just get a host of verses thrown back, then I address those verses and I get more verses lol.
Please give me some feed back on the arguments I put forth previously.
As far as your interpretations of “the woman with the issue of blood”, “the centurion” and “the man with the affliction”, it seems you are imparting your beliefs on text that is not teaching us about Salvation. Instead of placing our understanding of Salvation on random text we should look to the text that tells us how Salvation is attained to understand doctrine on the subject.
Check out the beginning of Romans 4. This is one text that teaches us how we are Justified. Paul tells us directly that “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” He doesn’t say he “believed and worked” to be righteous in God’s sight. Paul even goes further to help us understand works are not needed for Salvation by telling us if we did work for it, God would have been obligated to give it to us. Therefore, it would have no longer been the free gift that scripture tells us Salvation is.
Hope to hear back from you.
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