Good Works, or Faith Alone?

[activeChristian]

yeah! sure but what is your basis of change? change in what?How has Christ changed you? Shouldn’t that be demonstrated in your actions,words,how you treat people,how you make Christ the center of your life,praying (these are all works)

Of course but the works themselves save no one, they are a by product of Faith in Christ alone

 

[activeChristian]

NO WROKS CAN SAVE ONE AT ALL! and what is the CATHOLIC CHURCH teaching may I asked you? Does the Catholic Church teach that we are saved by WORKS ALONE???

From wha you have said yourself in this thread it is both. But it is not

 

[TriuneUnity]

We are told in Romans, Galatians, Colossians, and elsewhere by Paul that the Law was nailed to the Cross along with its legal claims against us. We cannot possibly do any work that would merit our redemption or put us right with Christ Jesus. He is the Lamb of God, made to be sin who knew no sin. He buried death and sin on the Cross. How can Paul tell us that works yield nothing but boasting and that works should come as evidence of a lively faith but not as the mode in which we are saved and still live in a works-oriented mentality? Paul tells us we are “credited” with righteousness. How can we be credited with righteousness through the vehicle of faith and expect that our own works can save us? What works can be pleasing to God to reverse the formula he has made and put us back on the Law-based merit system? If a person has strong faith, good works and sanctification spring forth. But those works and that good behavior does not save. If it did, then there would be no need for the Cross. So why are we so focused on our own goodness, our own works, our own brownie points, when we should constantly be doing good works in reaction to our justification, not to try and earn it? We are trying to put ourselves on a par with the work Jesus did. It’s not doable.

Amen, brother.

Just as I am, without one plea
But that Thy blood was shed for me
And that Thou bidd’st me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need, in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am; Thy love unknown
Has broken every barrier down.
Now to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

 

[Mayita30]

From wha you have said yourself in this thread it is both. But it is not/QUOTE

I have to go now! I’m not gonna say anything anymore but I really think that protestants and catholics believe the same thing

For Protestants= True faith (which is composed of good works) saves
For Catholics = Faith with Good works saves

True faith= faith with good works

I prefer to find a point in agreement.If you don’t like it that way then thats your choice.Sometimes I get the feeling that some Protestant religion(not all) are based on contradicting Catholic teachings…

anyway May God bless you…we are all Christian in any way.Christ is our savior and we should try to live our life according to Christ’s teachings…

 

[Loboto-Me]

If a person or bad priest says they have faith and do not produce good works, does that person really have faith? Their faith is dead, not living, can we even go as far as saying non-existent?

And what I am getting from your second statement, is that in order to prove to everyone you have a true faith, you need to make sure you are doing good works. So if I have faith and I walk an old lady across the street because I am need to validate my faith outwardly, but only did it so that everyone can see that I have faith, isn’t that just the same as doing nothing at all even though a good work was completed?

I think the difference is here, Luther says that if you have been justified by grace through faith, then good works are a natural byproduct, but what I hear from you is that we are justified by grace through faith and you better be having some good works where we can see them or the whole deal is off.

nuh uh… if you read the lives of Saints, you’ll see that that’s not the way we think at all. There are many many of us, who do good works praying for others and those others don’t even know it. There are thousands upon thousands that are anonymous saints… THAT’s how Catholics do many of their good works.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

OKKK so what you are saying that priests and pastors who say they have FAITH but abuse children are saved??? Just because they are proclaiming to have faith that means they are saved right?thats what you believe in

Now, now aren’t we being judgmental? What if that same priest or pastor who molested 10 children also; held 15 widows hands and comforted them at their death, ran a food pantry in their parish and fed 50 homeless every Thursday, visited 10 men in ICE detention waiting deportation? Well what then? Are they saved? Are they damned? Did they do good works? Were their works empty? Who is to judge their faith? Was their faith empty and dead?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I really think we agree. Let’s clarify here:

1. We agree that it’s impossible to merit Heaven. Only Christ can earn Heaven for us.
2. We agree that if you have true, justifying faith, works will flow from that naturally.
3. We agree that if it is not true faith, then no works will follow and that will prove that it is not true faith.
4. Therefore, to have true faith works are needed. But you say that faith alone brings about good works and we seperate the two.

That’s it. No need to overcomplicate things.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I really think we agree. Let’s clarify here:

1. We agree that it’s impossible to merit Heaven. Only Christ can earn Heaven for us.
2. We agree that if you have true, justifying faith, works will flow from that naturally.
3. We agree that if it is not true faith, then no works will follow and that will prove that it is not true faith.
4. Therefore, to have true faith works are needed. But you say that faith alone brings about good works and we seperate the two.

That’s it. No need to overcomplicate things.

Sounds like the JDDJ

 

[Mayita30]

Now, now aren’t we being judgmental? What if that same priest or pastor who molested 10 children also; **held 15 widows hands and comforted them at their death, ran a food pantry in their parish and fed 50 homeless every Thursday, visited 10 men in ICE detention waiting deportation? Well what then? Are they saved? Are they damned? Did they do good works? **Were their works empty? Who is to judge their faith? Was their faith empty and dead?

That’s exactly the point I am making! You said it yourself! Good works is necessary for true Faith! For us catholics true faith is faith with good works

 

[activeChristian]

That’s exactly the point I am making! You said it yourself! Good works is necessary for true Faith! For us Catholics true faith is faith with good works

They are not however necessary for Salvation. That is where Catholics and Protestants differ

 

[Mayita30]

They are not however necessary for Salvation. That is where Catholics and Protestants differ

so basically what you’re saying is that Dead faith can save you too!

 

[Mayita30]

They are not however necessary for Salvation. That is where Catholics and Protestants differ

Can you please give me an example on how Faith alone can save you??

 

[TriuneUnity]

so basically what you’re saying is that Dead faith can save you too!

Where Catholics and Protestants differ is in the instrumental cause of justification.

Protestants state that we are justified by the person of Christ in His obedience to the law, and in His taking on the wrath of God against the sins of mankind. These are referred to as Christ’s active obedience (His keeping the law), and His passive obedience (His punishment for our sins). These two things are the basis for our justification. This is solus Christus.

Justification gets from point A (the cross), to B (me, the sinner) solely through faith in Him, which is given to me as His gracious gift. As a result, His active obedience (His keeping the law) is credited as my keeping of the law. My sins are transferred to His passive obedience (His punishment for my sins), so that I do not suffer for them. This is the sola fide part.

 

[sixofseven]

They are not however necessary for Salvation. That is where Catholics and Protestants differ

Isn’t true faith necessary for salvation? Aren’t good works necessary for true faith?

 

[Mikeoffaith]

That’s exactly the point I am making! You said it yourself! Good works is necessary for true Faith! For us catholics true faith is faith with good works

What point are you making? You didn’t answer the question? Did they perform good works? Because they molested 10 children and that is not a good work, did that negate all the good works or just some of them? Where does their salvation stand? Is Christ keeping a score card? How does this work if good works are completely necessary for salvation?

 

[Loboto-Me]

Matthew 19

16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Also in John 14 Jesus says “If you love me keep my commandments”

James 2

**21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? **

And everyone knows “Faith without works is dead” (James again)

Romans 2

6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

Notice that God will judge us by the goodness of our works

There are so many other passages that support the Catholic view, yet some people like to twist it all around saying that we have it all wrong. People who have this idea that they just can’t release that we are trying to save ourselves by our works when we are most certainly not!

 

[Mayita30]

What point are you making? You didn’t answer the question? Did they perform good works? Because they molested 10 children and that is not a good work, did that negate all the good works or just some of them? Where does their salvation stand? Is Christ keeping a score card? How does this work if good works are completely necessary for salvation?

I am in no position in saying whether a person is saved or not! I am not God.All I am saying is that True faith which is necessary for salvation is believing in Christ as Our savior and doing good works…What is true faith to you by the way…

 

[JonNC]

Isn’t true faith necessary for salvation? Aren’t good works necessary for true faith?

Good works aren’t necessary for true faith, they are a result of true faith. Triune Unity said it quite well, “Justification gets from point A (the cross), to B (me, the sinner) solely through faith in Him, which is given to me as His gracious gift.” No works of ours are involved in this. But the truly justified do good works, out of obedience to the one whose work made our salvation possible. No good works means disobedience to His commands, which is sin. And repeated, unrepented sin leads to a loss of faith.

Jon

 

[Loboto-Me]

What point are you making? You didn’t answer the question? Did they perform good works? Because they molested 10 children and that is not a good work, did that negate all the good works or just some of them? Where does their salvation stand? Is Christ keeping a score card? How does this work if good works are completely necessary for salvation?

If the priest repents, confesses, does penance, and produces good fruit as a sign of that repentance, yes the priest is saved. But as you see, there are stipulations.

Mathew 3

7 And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them: Ye brood of vipers, who hath shewed you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance. 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire.

 

[Mayita30]

Good works aren’t necessary for true faith, they are a result of true faith. Triune Unity said it quite well, “Justification gets from point A (the cross), to B (me, the sinner) solely through faith in Him, which is given to me as His gracious gift.” No works of ours are involved in this. But the truly justified do good works, out of obedience to the one whose work made our salvation possible. No good works means disobedience to His commands, which is sin. And repeated, unrepented sin leads to a loss of faith.

Jon

Good works aren’t necessary for TRUE FAITH that’s what you say, so basically what you are saying is following Christ’s commandements is not necessary for TRUE FAITH… I am really not getting your point of view

For me TRUE faith is believing in Christ and following his commandments(meaing good works) is true faith