M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
Interesting you say that. You thus concede that Catholics are less judgemental since we believe it is indeed possible for those not Catholic to reach Heaven.
- Status
A
activeChristian
Guest
No Catholics use works in a way that they are justifying before God and we say there is nothing we can do to justify ourselves before God. It is through Christ alone that we are justified. The works that Faith produces only justify us in other man’s eyes.
In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Matt 7:17-18
It’s not that all of a sudden we start doing good works, it is Christ in us changing us that produces the outward sign. As you have said to be Catholic one must have Faith and Works to be justified, Protestant say no justification comes through Faith in Christ alone. You yourself are close to our position but the official Catholic position is not.
A
activeChristian
Guest
I would say Catholics err in that idea. The only to get to Heaven is to accept Christ
M
Mayita30
Guest
I have never heard that the Catholic Church teaches to judge whether PRotestants,Muslims ,Jews will go to Hell just because they don’t believe in Jesus…
Our religion is more of a REligion of Love not of Hate and Judgement towards people of DIFFERENT FAITH! and that is what CHRIST TEACHES: Love your neighbors as you love yourself!
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
My position is that of the official Catholic position.
The Catholic position:
Faith and works are necessary to merit salvation
The Protestant position:
Justifying Faith is enough to merit salvation. If faith is justifying it will naturally be followed by good works.
So then you say, “But wait, what if he claims to have justifying faith and good works don’t follow?”
And the Protestant here replies, “The faith is then not justifying.”
So the Catholic says, “So he needs works to justify his faith?”
And the Protestant replies, “No, once you have faith works naturally result from it because Christ has changed your heart. If you do not do good works it is not justifying faith.”
So the Catholic says, “Hey, we believe that without good works we don’t have justifying faith either!”
It’s the same thing.
EDIT: I just thought of something…
Indeed, hard as we try, no matter how good we are it will never be enough to merit justification. That is why reconciliation was established by Jesus. But we are still to try and do good works anyway. Christianity is a call to try and be the best we can be, even though it will never be good enough. So when we falter, we must ask forgiveness and it will be granted.
The Catholic position:
Faith and works are necessary to merit salvation
The Protestant position:
Justifying Faith is enough to merit salvation. If faith is justifying it will naturally be followed by good works.
So then you say, “But wait, what if he claims to have justifying faith and good works don’t follow?”
And the Protestant here replies, “The faith is then not justifying.”
So the Catholic says, “So he needs works to justify his faith?”
And the Protestant replies, “No, once you have faith works naturally result from it because Christ has changed your heart. If you do not do good works it is not justifying faith.”
So the Catholic says, “Hey, we believe that without good works we don’t have justifying faith either!”
It’s the same thing.
EDIT: I just thought of something…
Indeed, hard as we try, no matter how good we are it will never be enough to merit justification. That is why reconciliation was established by Jesus. But we are still to try and do good works anyway. Christianity is a call to try and be the best we can be, even though it will never be good enough. So when we falter, we must ask forgiveness and it will be granted.
A
activeChristian
Guest
Than you really don’t know the Bible. Christ also says:
6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 14:6
If a Muslims, Jew, Hindu or any other does not accept Christ they will not go to Heaven. There is no other way
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
Matt 7:13-14
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
From the link I posted before:
"Here is a statement from the German Conference of Bishops who work actively with the Lutherans for reconciliation:
“Catholic doctrine…says that only a faith alive in graciously bestowed love can justify. Having “mere” faith without love, merely considering something true, does not justify us. But if one understands faith in the full and comprehensive biblical sense, then faith includes conversion, hope, and love – and the Lutheran “faith alone”] formula can have a good Catholic sense.”
And here is a snippet from a Joint Declaration between the Lutherans and the Catholic Church for reconciliation on this issue:
According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
Protestants and Catholics…can we agree on that?
For more clarification and an outstanding read for both Protestants and Catholics, check out “The Salvation Controversy” by James Akin."
"Here is a statement from the German Conference of Bishops who work actively with the Lutherans for reconciliation:
“Catholic doctrine…says that only a faith alive in graciously bestowed love can justify. Having “mere” faith without love, merely considering something true, does not justify us. But if one understands faith in the full and comprehensive biblical sense, then faith includes conversion, hope, and love – and the Lutheran “faith alone”] formula can have a good Catholic sense.”
And here is a snippet from a Joint Declaration between the Lutherans and the Catholic Church for reconciliation on this issue:
According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
Protestants and Catholics…can we agree on that?
For more clarification and an outstanding read for both Protestants and Catholics, check out “The Salvation Controversy” by James Akin."
M
Mayita30
Guest
Offcourse! Jesus is the way the truth and the life…I , as a CATHOLIC I dont question the bible at all!!! I am very lucky to have been BORN INTO A FAMILY OF CHRISTIANS who have shown me that JESUS is my savior! But who am I to judge that all muslims,jews, budhist,hinuds are all going to hell??? AM I GOD to say that these people are going to hell? Use Human reason!
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
We are to love them no different than anyone else, indeed as ourselves. Part of loving our unbelieving neighbors is to warn them of the judgment to come. To refuse to preach Christ and Him crucified to them out of fear of offense, given that they are under condemnation, is the most unloving thing that we who have the Truth could do.
A
activeChristian
Guest
Not quite:
So then you say, “But wait, what if he claims to have justifying faith and good works don’t follow?”
And the Protestant here replies, “Christ is changing the one, Works do not justify us before God. We can not know what he does at all times”
So the Catholic says, “So he needs works to justify his faith?”
And the Protestant replies, “No, once you have faith works are a by product from the faith placed in Christ. not of ourselves.”
So the Catholic says, “Hey, we believe that without good works we don’t have justifying faith either!”
Protestant says “We don’t, you completely got our position wrong. We believe that Faith justifies not any works, you keep saying we agree we do not. Works will never justify us before God only Christ atonement can do that.”
We do not agree with your idea and I am not sure you’ll ever understand. Maybe this will help:
Source
Here is a good article:
the-highway.com/Justification-Gerstner.html
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
Uh guys, just pointing out, this thread is specifically about the faith and works controversy. All other Catholic vs. Protestant debates can be found on other threads, but that’s not what this thread is meant for.
Just, you know, saying.
More on this. Here is a quote from a Portestant convert to Catholicism named Douglas Bonneville. As far as I know he isn’t famous, he just posted in the blog I linked too earlier in the thread:
"What I found astonishing, even as a Protestant with sympathies for a more Jewish (and hence Catholic) view of works is that those who usually quote Eph 2:8,9 rarely, if ever, quote v10. A plain reading of the next verse, without straining to solve a theological problem which did not exist in Paul’s day, quite eloquently solves the whole dilema:
“For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”
The whole argument in 2:8,9 literally rests upon the reason for our creation stated in v10. If we are not doing good works as a result of our being saved by grace, we are not living in accordance with divine law. Otherwise we would continue in the “bad works” Paul outlines a few verses before, which are the various “bad works” we do by nature when we follow the impulses of the flesh. But good works are necessary not in the sense that we somehow have to bring them to the table, but rather, in the sense that they must be manifested by God’s power in our lives, as a testament to his “handiwork”.
In this sense, good works are necessary on the same condition that being made a new creation necessitates that something actually happens as a result of the newness. Otherwise, it is not new. Without good works, that would be the proof that we are not “created in Christ Jesus for … good works”? The newness is the good works! If the good works aren’t what is new as a result of being saved, then Paul isn’t saying anything coherent. No, Paul is quite coherent and is not straining to make a point. With a simple, light touch, Paul states we must have good works not be saved, but rather, as a result of being saved.
If we are a new creation, what is it exactly that is new about us, if not our “works”, our way of life, how we live? That is Paul’s point. Before we are saved by grace, we do bad works (Eph 2:3). After we are saved, we do good works. That’s what v1-10 are saying. That is the entire point.
Either way, we do “works” before and after “being saved by grace”, so splitting hairs over whether or not we need to bring them is moot. Paul isn’t asking a question about that. It’s like trying to infinitely divide a number like 33.3333. It just goes on forever like a mystery. We should be content with how Paul puts it. We do works before and after being saved, but after being saved the works are made good by God’s design."
Just, you know, saying.
More on this. Here is a quote from a Portestant convert to Catholicism named Douglas Bonneville. As far as I know he isn’t famous, he just posted in the blog I linked too earlier in the thread:
"What I found astonishing, even as a Protestant with sympathies for a more Jewish (and hence Catholic) view of works is that those who usually quote Eph 2:8,9 rarely, if ever, quote v10. A plain reading of the next verse, without straining to solve a theological problem which did not exist in Paul’s day, quite eloquently solves the whole dilema:
“For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”
The whole argument in 2:8,9 literally rests upon the reason for our creation stated in v10. If we are not doing good works as a result of our being saved by grace, we are not living in accordance with divine law. Otherwise we would continue in the “bad works” Paul outlines a few verses before, which are the various “bad works” we do by nature when we follow the impulses of the flesh. But good works are necessary not in the sense that we somehow have to bring them to the table, but rather, in the sense that they must be manifested by God’s power in our lives, as a testament to his “handiwork”.
In this sense, good works are necessary on the same condition that being made a new creation necessitates that something actually happens as a result of the newness. Otherwise, it is not new. Without good works, that would be the proof that we are not “created in Christ Jesus for … good works”? The newness is the good works! If the good works aren’t what is new as a result of being saved, then Paul isn’t saying anything coherent. No, Paul is quite coherent and is not straining to make a point. With a simple, light touch, Paul states we must have good works not be saved, but rather, as a result of being saved.
If we are a new creation, what is it exactly that is new about us, if not our “works”, our way of life, how we live? That is Paul’s point. Before we are saved by grace, we do bad works (Eph 2:3). After we are saved, we do good works. That’s what v1-10 are saying. That is the entire point.
Either way, we do “works” before and after “being saved by grace”, so splitting hairs over whether or not we need to bring them is moot. Paul isn’t asking a question about that. It’s like trying to infinitely divide a number like 33.3333. It just goes on forever like a mystery. We should be content with how Paul puts it. We do works before and after being saved, but after being saved the works are made good by God’s design."
M
Mayita30
Guest
I do agree that we should preach Christ and his teachings to Non-believers
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
From Matthew Warner again, the blogmaster (this blog is a treasure trove, BTW. fallible blogma. I encourage all to read it.) This comment was directed to a blogmaster but it might as well be directed to activechristian:
"I think it is a little more nuanced than you are making it though. Your statement, “If my good works are in any way involved in justification then it is no longer a gift,” is a good example.
That is not exactly true. If my good works themselves come as a gift of God’s grace (in other words, my good works are a gift also), then the fact that they are also involved in justification does not make justification any less of a gift. They are all mysteriously wrapped up in the same gift.
Scripture is also crystal clear that our works – our acts of love – are involved and necessary in our salvation. I wrote more on that here if you are interested.
So we must reconcile all of this scripture and reason. I believe that’s where you’ll find the Catholic position."
"I think it is a little more nuanced than you are making it though. Your statement, “If my good works are in any way involved in justification then it is no longer a gift,” is a good example.
That is not exactly true. If my good works themselves come as a gift of God’s grace (in other words, my good works are a gift also), then the fact that they are also involved in justification does not make justification any less of a gift. They are all mysteriously wrapped up in the same gift.
Scripture is also crystal clear that our works – our acts of love – are involved and necessary in our salvation. I wrote more on that here if you are interested.
So we must reconcile all of this scripture and reason. I believe that’s where you’ll find the Catholic position."
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
I’m Catholic and I agree with that. I accept Jesus Christ.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”
**543 ***Everyone *is called to enter the kingdom. First announced to the children of Israel, this messianic kingdom is intended to accept men of all nations. To enter it, one must first accept Jesus’ word:
The word of the Lord is compared to a seed which is sown in a field; those who hear it with faith and are numbered among the little flock of Christ have truly received the kingdom. Then, by its own power, the seed sprouts and grows until the harvest.
**
183 **Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (*Mk *16:16).
**
1811 **It is not easy for man, wounded by sin, to maintain moral balance. Christ’s gift of salvation offers us the grace necessary to persevere in the pursuit of the virtues. Everyone should always ask for this grace of light and strength, frequent the sacraments, cooperate with the Holy Spirit, and follow his calls to love what is good and shun evil.
**2086 **“The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say ‘God’ we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: ‘I am the LORD.’”
**2084 **God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: “I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: “You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods.” God’s first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him
454 The title “Son of God” signifies the unique and eternal relationship of Jesus Christ to God his Father: he is the only Son of the Father (cf. *Jn *1:14, 18; 3:16, 18); he is God himself (cf. *Jn *1:1). To be a Christian, one must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (cf. *Acts *8:37; *1 Jn *2:23).
**151 **For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his “beloved Son”, in whom the Father is “well pleased”; God tells us to listen to him. The Lord himself said to his disciples: “Believe in God, believe also in me.” We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: “No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.” Because he “has seen the Father”, Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him.
**1992 **Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:
*But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. *
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
Also from Warner:
"The Catholic Church does not believe that we can earn or merit our salvation. And it doesn’t seem to be a belief that you yourself hold. So I’m not sure who is on the other side of the canyon here.
Both faith AND works are BOTH a result of God’s grace. Correct? Both are required for salvation. Both are by God’s grace. That is Catholic teaching."
Also, there seems to be some confusion on how Catholics look at the word merit. Here’s agood post on that too, from this very site:
catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp
A quote:
"Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).
The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008).
Virtually all of this is agreed to by Protestants, who recognize that, under the impetus of God’s grace, Christians do perform acts which are pleasing to God and which God has promised to reward, meaning that they fit the definition of merit. When faced with this, Protestants are forced to admit the truth of the Catholic position—although, contrary to Paul’s command (2 Tim. 2:14), they may still dispute the terminology."
"The Catholic Church does not believe that we can earn or merit our salvation. And it doesn’t seem to be a belief that you yourself hold. So I’m not sure who is on the other side of the canyon here.
Both faith AND works are BOTH a result of God’s grace. Correct? Both are required for salvation. Both are by God’s grace. That is Catholic teaching."
Also, there seems to be some confusion on how Catholics look at the word merit. Here’s agood post on that too, from this very site:
catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp
A quote:
"Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).
The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008).
Virtually all of this is agreed to by Protestants, who recognize that, under the impetus of God’s grace, Christians do perform acts which are pleasing to God and which God has promised to reward, meaning that they fit the definition of merit. When faced with this, Protestants are forced to admit the truth of the Catholic position—although, contrary to Paul’s command (2 Tim. 2:14), they may still dispute the terminology."
A
activeChristian
Guest
See the problem is Scripture never says this.
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
“Virtually all of this is agreed to by Protestants, who recognize that, under the impetus of God’s grace, Christians do perform acts which are pleasing to God and which God has promised to reward, meaning that they fit the definition of merit. When faced with this, Protestants are forced to admit the truth of the Catholic position…”
Just wanted to repeat this bit (I originally tried to use html but that’s off, LOL).
Just wanted to repeat this bit (I originally tried to use html but that’s off, LOL).
A
activeChristian
Guest
Yet you must earn your justification as a Catholic
M
Mayita30
Guest
How does a Catholic earn his/her justification?
A
activeChristian
Guest
I don’t admit the truth of the Catholic position. Works do not justify before God and no matter how many blogs, articles etc you post the official position from Trent itself is that Faith and Works justify one before God as has been shown you.
You all say Faith and Works justify us before God, we say no Faith alone justifies before God works justify us before man only
- Status