Good Works, or Faith Alone?

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TriuneUnity said:
Lapey, that’s fine, but Protestants recognize that Catholics believe grace is necessary. That was never in dispute. Where we disagree is on the sufficiency of grace, not whether it is necessary. Rome believes that the human will must cooperate with grace in justification otherwise it is not effective. Since we are monergists, we believe grace in and of itself, outside the cooperation of the human will, is sufficient to justify. We do cooperate in our sanctification, that is, in personal holiness and obedience to God’s commandments. But that is not justification.
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Great post! Wish we had a rep system. 🙂
 
Loboto-Me said:
Douay-Rheims

James 2
14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

This shows us that it is possible to have faith without works… but it’s dead faith. Dead faith is still faith but it’s useless.

This section in the NIV

**18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” **
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

In the KJ

18Yea, a man may say, “Thou hast faith, and I have works.” Show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

French (Bible du Semeur)

18 Mais quelqu’un dira:
—L’un a la foi, l’autre les actes(“http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#ffr-BDS-30320b”)**].
**—Eh bien! Montre-moi ta foi sans les actes, et je te montrerai ma foi par **mes actes.

Notice that what the someone says is in quotations, then what James replies becomes part of the passage again… Show me your faith without deeds, and I’ll show you mine by what I do. This is shown in all 3 examples. James says that he has faith and shows them by his works/actions.

Yes, Catholics ARE justified by works and NOT ONLY faith… by BOTH, yet to Catholics, works do justify us. We co-operate with our faith in Christ through and with our works.

Douay-Rheim

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead
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No where are we justified before God by our works, before man but not God.
 
“While that seems the case it is not.”…That is EXACTLY the type of post I’m talking about. We give you a source officially sanctioned by the Vatican that Catholics are supposed to accept as true and you flat out say, “No, you don’t believe that.” Yes, we do.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
“While that seems the case it is not.”…That is EXACTLY the type of post I’m talking about. We give you a source officially sanctioned by the Vatican that Catholics are supposed to accept as true and you flat out say, “No, you don’t believe that.” Yes, we do.
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And you don’t know your own Churches teaching. We will never agree with the Catholic Church insistence that you must have faith and works to get to Heaven. Even though you try to spin it a thousand other ways it still is there in Catholicism Christ is not enough a human must add his own works to get saved which goes against the Scriptures themselves
 
We gave you a source officially sanctioned by the Church and you flat out siad that that isn’t what the Church teaches when the source is an OFFICIAL SOURCE.

What more do you want from me? A written statement from the Vatican? Wait, we already posted that and you said that that isn’t what they taught even though we showed you the teaching.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
We gave you a source officially sanctioned by the Church and you flat out siad that that isn’t what the Church teaches when the source is an OFFICIAL SOURCE.

What more do you want from me? A written statement from the Vatican? Wait, we already posted that and you said that that isn’t what they taught even though we showed you the teaching.
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I want you to handle and admit the truth that your church requires you to use works to get saved no matter how much you deny it. All you can do is spin it, the plain meaning is there your church believes faith and works save not just Christ alone.
 
That’s interesting; I do amdit it. I was trying to get YOU to admit that what you believe and what I believe are about the same thing!

But maybe it’s possible you’re that small percentage of Protestants that really DO believe in something that is completely contrary to Catholic teaching on this issue. I had trouble believing that because it’s quite rare. Most of the time the Catholic and Protestant views of justification CAN be reconciled. But not all of the time. Perhaps this one of those occasions when they simply CAN’T be reconciled. But I do believe Christ alone can save us. I believe works are a gift from Christ too. Perhaps that’s where we differ.

But your understanding of faith and works is still flawed, and when we put up posts clarifying it I still think you ignored them or falt out said they weren’t what the Church taught…which made no sense since we were posting official Church teachings!
 
Marc_Anthony said:
That’s interesting; I do admit it. I was trying to get YOU to admit that what you believe and what I believe are about the same thing!
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We don’t believe even remotely the same thing nor would any Protestant worth their salt. Now you have admitted it and that is where we differ the Protestant position has and always will be that we are Justified by Christ alone not by any works we do. As Paul says it is not by works lest any man should boast.

Scripture is higher than any Church and in this case Catholicism goes directly against Scripture. Now where we can agree is that the fruit we produce shows us to be Christians to man because as James says Faith without works are dead. Still you must keep in mind that Justification comes by Christ alone
 
(Sigh…)

Well, we disagree on a number of things here; for starters, Scripture being higher than any Church. For another, Catechism contradicting scripture. Also, unless I’m just missing something, you just reconciled yourself with the Catholic meaning of justification.

So, we need works to show us to be Christian, because faith without works is dead. All right. Suppose we have no works. James said our faith is dead. Faith and works.

We’re going in circles here.
 
What do you want from someone who ignores official documents and bible verses that explicitly says that you gotta have works or it’s no good. What do you expect for a faith ALONE person? Who prefers dead faith over true faith?

You know what Jesus said about those pearls and the swine… I’ll retain my pearls now.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
(Sigh…)

Well, we disagree on a number of things here; for starters, Scripture being higher than any Church. For another, Catechism contradicting scripture. Also, unless I’m just missing something, you just reconciled yourself with the Catholic meaning of justification.

So, we need works to show us to be Christian, because faith without works is dead. All right. Suppose we have no works. James said our faith is dead. Faith and works.

We’re going in circles here.
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No I didn’t Catholicism in error believe that man must work into Heaven, we do not. For the millionth time only Christ can justify us not anything we do. They are two different positions and if you agree with us than you don’t agree with your own church.

The two positions are different completely. I don’t understand why you can’t see it even as a Catholic I knew they were different than the Protestant position. Read and understand - We are only Justified before God by Christ alone nothing we do is good enough
 
activeChristian said:
I want you to handle and admit the truth that your church requires you to use works to get saved no matter how much you deny it. All you can do is spin it, the plain meaning is there your church believes faith and works save not just Christ alone.
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All you are doing is putting blinders on about our faith. All you want us to do is admit to something we don’t do??? The martyrs didn’t admit to lies, why should we?
 
Catechism doesn’t say that. We posted what Catechism said and you said that’s not what we teach. You said that an official teaching is not what we teach.

Also, you claim that nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are justified before God by our works. How was Abraham justified before man? The only person who knew that he was about to sacrifice Isaac was God. He proved his faith with works to God. At the time it happened man didn’t even know about it.
 
Loboto-Me said:
What do you want from someone who ignores official documents and bible verses that explicitly says that you gotta have works or it’s no good. What do you expect for a faith ALONE person? Who prefers dead faith over true faith?

You know what Jesus said about those pearls and the swine… I’ll retain my pearls now.
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It is us who throw pearls (thanks for the insult).

There is no verse in Scripture at all that says we must have faith and our own works to get to Heaven
 
Also, we can STILL reach Heaven even if we do bad things as long as we undergo true repentance or the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So if we have faith but not works, but then repent we will be forgiven. Another official teaching of the Church.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Catechism doesn’t say that. We posted what Catechism said and you said that’s not what we teach. You said that an official teaching is not what we teach.
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Trent does, even though you spun it Trent does say one needs Faith and Works to get tom Heaven. We had to post it because you all never would. So is Trent no longer valid?
Marc_Anthony said:
Also, you claim that nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are justified before God by our works. How was Abraham justified before man? The only person who knew that he was about to sacrifice Isaac was God. He proved his faith with works to God. At the time it happened man didn’t even know about it.
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Notice what you said. There are no Scriptures that say we must work to get to Heaven, period
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Also, we can STILL reach Heaven even if we do bad things as long as we undergo true repentance or the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So if we have faith but not works, but then repent we will be forgiven. Another official teaching of the Church.
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Reconciliation is a work, so it is still Faith plus
 
You took Trent out of context. I not only explained it, I gave you an official teaching of the Church explaining exactly what we believe and you came out and said we don’t believe that. Except that we do.
 
Um, I said he wasn’t justified before man. Which means that the only possible to way to take that passage in James is that Abraham was justified through his faith in God and the works that proved his faith TO God. If Abraham hadn’t done what God wanted-God’s works-it would have been false faith. He needed faith AND works.
 
BTW, you realize that there can be true repentance outside of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, right?
 
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