Good Works, or Faith Alone?

[KathleenGee]

OK.

Now they can stop laughing…

 

[Jean_1958]

I should have been more clear - all people can do “good works” by earthly standards.

So do un-saved people who do works go to Hell? What happens to the un-saved person who does good works?

What makes good works of the regenerate good in God’s eyes is Grace.

Not all “saved” people do good works.

Jean

 

[workingman]

I know this set of questions was not for me from Jean but I felt a need to reply.
Now we know we can not judge the state of ones soul that is for God alone. But if one dies and still rejects God then most likely will end up in Hell.

Good works very on a persons station in life and can be as simple as changing a dirty diaper. Let us remember the church is comprised of sinners. Who daily need to drown the old Adam and be raised anew in Christ Jesus through daily repentance and contrishan. (sorry about spell errors)

 

[Lapey]

As usual, putting words in my mouth and being presumptuous. You know your word choice isn’t charitable here and that you would be angered if a Protestant used that sad choice of words to describe your faith and beliefs. It’s the simple old addage–treat others as you’d like to be treated. It’s not nuclear physics, very simple stuff. Loaded language doesn’t make for a good argument, just theatre and dramatics to use as filler for a lack of substance.

I was told by the site administration to not comment on your posts, I would appreciate you not commenting on mine. We can agree to disagree and stop communicating with each other; I think that would be best for both of us.

Thanks and have a God day!
Gary

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I was merely commenting on your comment. I’m wondering why site administration was talking to you about me? hmmm. That’s fine. It’s unfortunate that a person cannot defend his or her position and chooses to go down this road. I don’t mind people, as long as they do it respectfully, criticizing or challenging me. It helps me to grow as a person and look at things from all perspectives. I don’t like just exchanging with people who agree with me and who provide a yes-man approach. I think you need to drop the “spewing” type comments from your posts. That’s all I was saying. My approach needs improvement at times as well. The Catholic position can be defended without that approach. That was what my post was about. Perhaps if you feel threatened by me or uncomfortable with a different perspective, you can also use the “ignore” button. I haven’t chosen that route with you as I don’t mind disagreement. Sorry you felt otherwise. Best of luck to you as well.

I was told by the site administration to not comment on your posts, I would appreciate you not commenting on mine. We can agree to disagree and stop communicating with each other; I think that would be best for both of us.

Thanks and have a God day!
Gary

 

[Lapey]

I may have mixed you up with another poster; if I did I sincerely apologize. There was a poster who decided to provoke and I reciprocated via private message. I was reprimanded and told not to have any contact with that poster. I thought it was you. Sorry.

As to our disagreement here, I agree I can back up my statement without using the word I chose. But my word was pointed at one poster, who had been banned for doing exactly what I said. I in no way meant to imply I believe that about all Protestants, and I challenge you to show the opposite.

My post was simply stating fact about one person, nothing more. I don’t appreciate having my words misused any more than you. That is the reason I made fun of your comments, it was simply sarcasm. I was making lite of your statement towards me. That is all.

If I remembered the name wrong I am sorry, and if that is the case then I feel like the south end of a north bound mule! On the other hand…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Oh wait, now I remember. You IM’d me months back and said the mule comment. That’s right. I probably was the guy they warned you about. I wasn’t thrilled with the mule comment or IM barrage We had a turf war not too long ago. Oh well, let’s move on…we’re both Christians

I may have mixed you up with another poster; if I did I sincerely apologize. There was a poster who decided to provoke and I reciprocated via private message. I was reprimanded and told not to have any contact with that poster. I thought it was you. Sorry.

As to our disagreement here, I agree I can back up my statement without using the word I chose. But my word was pointed at one poster, who had been banned for doing exactly what I said. I in no way meant to imply I believe that about all Protestants, and I challenge you to show the opposite.

My post was simply stating fact about one person, nothing more. I don’t appreciate having my words misused any more than you. That is the reason I made fun of your comments, it was simply sarcasm. I was making lite of your statement towards me. That is all.

If I remembered the name wrong I am sorry, and if that is the case then I feel like the south end of a north bound mule! On the other hand…

 

[Lapey]

Oh wait, now I remember. You IM’d me months back and said the mule comment. That’s right. I probably was the guy they warned you about. I wasn’t thrilled with the mule comment or IM barrage We had a turf war not too long ago. Oh well, let’s move on…we’re both Christians

I didn’t think my memory was that short…any way, I apologize for my short temper that day. Much was happening in my home world that day. No reason for me to insult you the way I did though. Very sorry about that.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No problem, Lapey. I hear the stress thing. Hope things are better for you now. My grandma was diagnosed with lung cancer recently at age 83 and it’s stressing my mother horribly. My mom has parkinsons and health issues of her own. We have been under stress because school is almost out with 10 days left (I’m a sixth grade teacher) and I have enough on my plate to kill a rhino LOL…Then we’re leaving for the Philippines just three days after school. Ay yay yay. I checked my blood pressure last night. Normally 120/80 it was 140/100. I about flipped my lid!

I didn’t think my memory was that short…any way, I apologize for my short temper that day. Much was happening in my home world that day. No reason for me to insult you the way I did though. Very sorry about that.

 

[Lapey]

No problem, Lapey. I hear the stress thing. Hope things are better for you now. My grandma was diagnosed with lung cancer recently at age 83 and it’s stressing my mother horribly. My mom has parkinsons and health issues of her own. We have been under stress because school is almost out with 10 days left (I’m a sixth grade teacher) and I have enough on my plate to kill a rhino LOL…Then we’re leaving for the Philippines just three days after school. Ay yay yay. I checked my blood pressure last night. Normally 120/80 it was 140/100. I about flipped my lid!

My wife is a seventh grade math teacher. She is quite stressed this week as well, she is done Friday!!!

Sorry about grandma, whats her first name(if you don’t mind)? I will keep her and your family in my prayers this evening.

 

[Jimmy_B]

No problem, Lapey. I hear the stress thing. Hope things are better for you now. My grandma was diagnosed with lung cancer recently at age 83 and it’s stressing my mother horribly. My mom has parkinsons and health issues of her own. We have been under stress because school is almost out with 10 days left (I’m a sixth grade teacher) and I have enough on my plate to kill a rhino LOL…Then we’re leaving for the Philippines just three days after school. Ay yay yay. I checked my blood pressure last night. Normally 120/80 it was 140/100. I about flipped my lid!

Your grand-mother and the rest of your family are in my prayers.

 

[JonNC]

=Jean_1958;6651916]So do un-saved people who do works go to Hell? What happens to the un-saved person who does good works?

“He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.”
“No one comes to the Father except by Me.”
I’m not in a position to judge the unregenerate, but that is what scripture tells us. Certainly, God can save whomever He wants for whatever reason He chooses. But it is not the teachings of either your Church or mine that good works alone save.

Not all “saved” people do good works.

The Lutheran Church teaches that the regenerate are bound, required to to follow the commands of Christ. One of those commands is to help the least of His children. The regenerate who are capable of doing good works must be obedient to His commands.
Failurte to do so is sin, and repeated and unrepented sin leads to a loss of true, saving faith.
Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

Gurney,

Will keep you and your family in prayer…go easy on the stress…

Prayers,
Kathleen

 

[JonNC]

No problem, Lapey. I hear the stress thing. Hope things are better for you now. My grandma was diagnosed with lung cancer recently at age 83 and it’s stressing my mother horribly. My mom has parkinsons and health issues of her own. We have been under stress because school is almost out with 10 days left (I’m a sixth grade teacher) and I have enough on my plate to kill a rhino LOL…Then we’re leaving for the Philippines just three days after school. Ay yay yay. I checked my blood pressure last night. Normally 120/80 it was 140/100. I about flipped my lid!

Praying for your good health, my friend, and a wonderful trip.

Jon

 

[workingman]

No problem, Lapey. I hear the stress thing. Hope things are better for you now. My grandma was diagnosed with lung cancer recently at age 83 and it’s stressing my mother horribly. My mom has parkinsons and health issues of her own. We have been under stress because school is almost out with 10 days left (I’m a sixth grade teacher) and I have enough on my plate to kill a rhino LOL…Then we’re leaving for the Philippines just three days after school. Ay yay yay. I checked my blood pressure last night. Normally 120/80 it was 140/100. I about flipped my lid!

You and your family will be kept in my prayers. God bless you and you and yours

 

[DavidKays]

Perhaps as an Orthodox, you are an exception rather than the rule for you to say that. What I gather here Orthodox are quite clear on things which are not the same to them. Normally they do not say, “We are saying the same thing except that we do not use that word”.

God bless.

Hi Reuben! I am the exception because I grew up in a Catholic setting for the first 30 years of my life ( the last 15 years in our newly formed Orthodox Church ) so doctrinally I am capable expressing myself both in Catholic and Orthodox ways. I can remember going to any fastfood chain in a car and the person will say " do you want that in a combo ". So that is what I see myself as " a combo! " God put an entire Orthodox congregation into the High Church of England at Charlottetown, P.E.I. We had Mass daily, the Stations, Confession, Adoration, Benediction, the Smells and the Bells ( that made the Low-Anglicans angry at us, I could never figure them out! ), the Rosary, the Altar facing East, and even the Reserved Sacrament in place. We were the envy of the Catholics on the Island because those St.Peterites just seem to do it right. My Church at that time, St.Peter's Cathedral, even prayed during intercessions for the Holy Father, the Ecumenical Patriarch and of course the Archbishop of Canterbury. Just to let the Catholics know from these forums we gave the Pope first recognition so that is why I have such a close relationship to the Holy Father and the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has such beautiful devotions and it was a great gift God gave to me and to the rest of the Orthodox there, to be able to worship and pray like a Catholic. My orientation even today is more Catholic than Eastern though I do love and admire the Eastern Way. I love them both and can be of somewhat an authority of both their teachings. So may by that is why I can interchange once in awhile. God Bless!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Reuben! I am the exception because I grew up in a Catholic setting for the first 30 years of my life ( the last 15 years in our newly formed Orthodox Church ) so doctrinally I am capable expressing myself both in Catholic and Orthodox ways. I can remember going to any fastfood chain in a car and the person will say " do you want that in a combo ". So that is what I see myself as " a combo! " God put an entire Orthodox congregation into the High Church of England at Charlottetown, P.E.I. We had Mass daily, the Stations, Confession, Adoration, Benediction, the Smells and the Bells ( that made the Low-Anglicans angry at us, I could never figure them out! ), the Rosary, the Altar facing East, and even the Reserved Sacrament in place. We were the envy of the Catholics on the Island because those St.Peterites just seem to do it right. My Church at that time, St.Peter’s Cathedral, even prayed during intercessions for the Holy Father, the Ecumenical Patriarch and of course the Archbishop of Canterbury. Just to let the Catholics know from these forums we gave the Pope first recognition so that is why I have such a close relationship to the Holy Father and the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has such beautiful devotions and it was a great gift God gave to me and to the rest of the Orthodox there, to be able to worship and pray like a Catholic. My orientation even today is more Catholic than Eastern though I do love and admire the Eastern Way. I love them both and can be of somewhat an authority of both their teachings. So may by that is why I can interchange once in awhile. God Bless!

What a wonderful post!

 

[DavidKays]

The Sacraments are not works. The Sacraments are concrete forms of Jesus Christ.

Hi Kathleen! I saw your post and I hope you don’t mind me quoting some of your Catholic Saints but I must. I quite do not know what you mean by the word works in your post but if I mean to understand it the way I do then I will say that the Sacraments are works. Let me explain. St.John Vianney ( by the way this saintly priest is the darnest priest I ever read and if anyone has a calling to the priesthood please do not pass him by ) wrote that all our prayers and works are our sacrifice before God. Not so the Holy Eucharist for this is not man’s sacrifice before God but God’s sacrifice before man and therefore deserves much more merit. God is very pleased with our works when done in His Name. So the Sacrifice of His Son was so pleasing to the Eternal Father that He cannot resist lavashing His Gifts of Graces upon mankind. That is why we receive more at this Sacrament. The works then becomes the work of God. Our own sacrifices however big or small helps complete Our Lord’s Sacrifice so that we can share into His Glory. He actually wants us to help Him complete it. So then without our participation God will not bestow His Grace. He is actually made Himself dependent on what we do. It is like unto a marriage relationship that God has with us. So we are dependent on Him and He makes Himself dependent on us! God Bless!

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi David,
Thank you very much for your beautiful and deeply devout remarks.

I was responding to the Dobie Gillis’ Bohemian friend Maynard who would jump at the word, ‘work’. I was reacting to Protestants’ reaction to our use of works.

The economy of salvation means that we work at our salvation…and the best is by taking time and work to know our faith, to know what the Mass is, and what our duties are as Catholics…it all requires work. It is a real work to deny ourselves and let Christ and His merits live through us.

Again, I take your response to heart…Thanks so much!

Kathleen

 

[DavidKays]

Hi David,
Thank you very much for your beautiful and deeply devout remarks.

I was responding to the Dobie Gillis’ Bohemian friend Maynard who would jump at the word, ‘work’. I was reacting to Protestants’ reaction to our use of works.

The economy of salvation means that we work at our salvation…and the best is by taking time and work to know our faith, to know what the Mass is, and what our duties are as Catholics…it all requires work. It is a real work to deny ourselves and let Christ and His merits live through us.

Again, I take your response to heart…Thanks so much!

Kathleen

I know what you mean Kathleen. The Orthodox will say the same thing. I too had a difficult time working out and I honestly believe God does this for us so that we can learn something about ourselves. We can best witness for God by discovering who we are. Protestants tend not to teach that because they do not carry any of the Sacraments to help them to achieve this. Since they do not adhere to the sacramental way of life they must understand other ways to acheive salvation. I agree with you that it requires real work. If I thought that it will be easy, I will join the Protestant Church. But it isn't easy. It is easy to tell someone else what to do. It is much harder to deny yourself yet this produces the greatest results. After a long and hard struggle I began to see myself as God sees me and to discover those hidden gifts He placed in me. I am able to discern better and not quick to judge. God gave me a particular gift that has broaden my horizon and it was this. He put an entire Orthodox congregation in a High Church of England and for the first 30 years of my life I prayed like a Catholic so I know what it is like to work out your salvation as a Catholic. I prayed the Rosary, did the Stations on occassion, attended adoration and benediction, had my ashes once a year, and loved eating fish on fridays. I am a Greek Orthodox christian who began his life as a Catholic. God placed us there so that we can appreciate better the Catholic Way. Later on I attended the newly formed Orthodox Parish. Nothing really changed much except I can eat fish now on Wednesdays and Fridays. The Orthodox fast on Wednesday and Friday. That was great cause I love eating fish. I kidd my Catholic friends when they asked me do you have Ash Wednesday and I answer every Wednesday is Ash Wednesday. If you think the Catholic Way is hard just try an Orthodox Church for a year. Man their tough but you know you gotta be tough if you want results. Thank you for explaining your post and keep up the good " work "! God Bless!