Good Works Through Grace v. Secular Good Works

[casabolg]

For someone completely unaware of the church and the faith, generally, what would be the difference between good works coming through grace and secular good works? I’m struggling to see what people mean by “grace” in relation to this issue.

 

[someperson555]

Disclaimer: this is just my take on it.

There is no difference between secular good works or good works by “grace” as long as both are sincere and arise from genuine empathy.
One of the signs of being close to God is having empathy. Sin causes a loss of empathy which renders us unable to love.
However our closeness to God cannot be judged based on ones religion or other superficial things like that.
A nonreligious person who helps his fellow man out of genuine caring is far closer to God than a religious person who just wants merits or brownie points.

 

[fastenatingguy]

Disclaimer: this is just my take on it.

There is no difference between secular good works or good works by “grace” as long as both are sincere and arise from genuine empathy.
One of the signs of being close to God is having empathy. Sin causes a loss of empathy which renders us unable to love.
However our closeness to God cannot be judged based on ones religion or other superficial things like that.

A nonreligious person who helps his fellow man out of genuine caring is far closer to God than a religious person who just wants merits or brownie points.

I have a good friend who is mostly kind and helpful to his friends. However, he is a confirmed atheist who takes the Lord’s name in vane constantly. So in his case, it is hard to reconcile that he is closer to God.

 

[someperson555]

I have a good friend who is mostly kind and helpful to his friends. However, he is a confirmed atheist who takes the Lord’s name in vane constantly. So in his case, it is hard to reconcile that he is closer to God.

You cant judge a person based on surface actions. You have to look at the motivations and level of sincerity. Remember in acts the disciples who didn’t recognize Jesus at first. They only realized who he was after he broke bread. I think thats the way it is in lifes journey. Some people may be walking with God and not even know it.
Their hatred of religion may stem from misunderstanding of scripture. From my personal experience I can tell you that religion doesnt automatocally make you a better person.
A person who does good out of sincere conviction is far superior than the religious person who just fears punishment or wants a reward. You have to ask yourself that if you merely do things out of fear of punishment or want of reward then what separates you from a dog? S dog is the same way. The only reason he doesnt steal meat from the table or chew up the sofa is because hes afraid hell get a whipping. Jesus calls us to be more than just good dogs.

Ironically I think many atheists would make better Christians than some self proclaimed Christians today. This is the great tragedy of the 20th century. The word of God is misinterpreted by bad Christians which make God look like a tyrant. So ironically it repulses the very people who are most suited for christianity.

 

[Cathoholic]

casabolg

You asked:

QUOTE:
what would be the difference between good works coming through grace and secular good works?

The fact that you even asked this question shows the concept is on your proverbial radar. This is very good.

I will try to get into more depth on this later as to the fact that these differing types of works DO occur.

someperson555, you said:

QUOTE:
There is no difference between secular good works or good works by “grace” as long as both are sincere and arise from genuine empathy.

I gotta tell you. I disagree with this statement.

You also said:

QUOTE:
Ironically I think many atheists would make better Christians than some self proclaimed Christians today.

There might be a grain of truth to your assertion . . . yet Scripture tells us without faith, it is impossible to please God. How do you harmonize your statement with Sacred Scripture which seems to contradict what you are saying?

HEBREWS 11:6 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

I’ll await your reply and proceed as indicated.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[casabolg]

casabolg

You asked:

QUOTE:
what would be the difference between good works coming through grace and secular good works?

The fact that you even asked this question shows the concept is on your proverbial radar. This is very good.

I will try to get into more depth on this later as to the fact that these differing types of works DO occur.

someperson555, you said:

QUOTE:
There is no difference between secular good works or good works by “grace” as long as both are sincere and arise from genuine empathy.

I gotta tell you. I disagree with this statement.

You also said:

QUOTE:
Ironically I think many atheists would make better Christians than some self proclaimed Christians today.

There might be a grain of truth to your assertion . . . yet Scripture tells us without faith, it is impossible to please God. How do you harmonize your statement with Sacred Scripture which seems to contradict what you are saying?

HEBREWS 11:6 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

I’ll await your reply and proceed as indicated.

God bless.

Cathoholic

Well thank you but when is this later in which you’ll be clarifying the difference?

 

[hicetnunc]

For someone completely unaware of the church and the faith, generally, what would be the difference between good works coming through grace and secular good works? I’m struggling to see what people mean by “grace” in relation to this issue.

It is a good question. The difference, as St Thomas explains it, is between works of natural, or acquired virtue, and works of infused virtue. Natural virtue enables us to live well in world, while infused virtue, which is meritorious, establishes us in friendship with God.

Natural virtue on its own is not sufficient to merit an eternal reward. In order to gain heaven, we have to have the infused virtues whose form is the love of God.

St Thomas says that natural virtue is not virtue properly speaking but only in reference to infused virtue. Two acts may materially look the same, but differ formally in the grace and motivation (and hence merit) behind them.

 

[Flopfoot]

Is there any benefit to having natural virtue if you don’t have infused virtue?

 

[fhansen]

For someone completely unaware of the church and the faith, generally, what would be the difference between good works coming through grace and secular good works? I’m struggling to see what people mean by “grace” in relation to this issue.

Love is the authentic motivator behind good works. It is always good, always right and worthy of praise. People hold the image of God within their beings, whether they know it or not, and even though that image is obscured and weakened by the Fall, we can nonetheless act according to its desires, that which it naturally aspires to or is oriented towards. We can obey, or do the right thing, without knowing why. The difference with believers is that we know why, and even more grace is available for our benefit as we grow in justice, as we grow in love, as we’re willing.

 

[hicetnunc]

Is there any benefit to having natural virtue if you don’t have infused virtue?

The natural/acquired virtues in a sense presuppose the infused virtues; but without merit won and given by Christ, no human action can be eternally meritorious (otherwise, we would be committed to Pelagianism, the belief that we merit heaven by our own efforts). In other words, our natural efforts to do good require divine infusion of grace to be meritorious.

 

[CompSciGuy]

My take on it is that secular good works are the result of the fact that we are made in the image and likeness of God. We love what is good because God loves what is good. We are moved to love because God created us in love, for love, to love. While a secular person may not be aware or may refuse to acknowledge this, I believe this is the underlying reason.

Good works from grace I believe are more complete because now the person is doing good works out of a real, conscious love for God, knowing that he is the source of all good. Loving God and being loved by God fuels this person’s actions and unites them to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, bringing grace not only to themselves but to the whole world, and working toward the salvation of mankind.

 

[Flopfoot]

That’s strange. There’s a lot of reasons why a non religious person would do good works (personal gain, self esteem, the social contract, cultural influence etc) but this makes it sound like from God’s perspective they are no better than a non religious person who didn’t do good works.

Also appears to contradict Mt 25:31-46 “I was hungry and you fed me… etc”

Also it is a bit weird that everyone (religious or not) is judged for their bad works but not everyone is rewarded for their good works.

 

[casabolg]

It is a good question. The difference, as St Thomas explains it, is between works of natural, or acquired virtue, and works of infused virtue. Natural virtue enables us to live well in world, while infused virtue, which is meritorious, establishes us in friendship with God.

Natural virtue on its own is not sufficient to merit an eternal reward. In order to gain heaven, we have to have the infused virtues whose form is the love of God.

St Thomas says that natural virtue is not virtue properly speaking but only in reference to infused virtue. Two acts may materially look the same, but differ formally in the grace and motivation (and hence merit) behind them.

This seems near obvious, thank you. I’m going to need a clarification on discerning natural virtue form infused virtue though:

Are you saying that good works through grace - for one outside the faith - is basically someone living a life of love out of (for lack of a better wording) love for love itself? Secular good works being anything else.

 

[Cathoholic]

casabolg.

You asked:

QUOTE:
but when is this later in which you’ll be clarifying the difference?

I don’t know. I’ll try tonight or perhaps in a day or two.

I don’t want to get into details here but having some nausea and dizziness. Had a treatment for a malignancy last week and I’m still not back to baseline.

 

[casabolg]

Hoping someone will have a solid answer. Maybe some theologian backing their answer.

 

[hicetnunc]

Are you saying that good works through grace - for one outside the faith - is basically someone living a life of love out of (for lack of a better wording) love for love itself? Secular good works being anything else.

In the Summa, St Thomas says “Faith directs the intention with regard to the supernatural last end: but even the light of natural reason [as in an unbeliever] can direct the intention in respect of a connatural good” (ST II-II.10.4.ad 2) and “Unbelief does not so wholly destroy natural reason in unbelievers, but that some knowledge of the truth remains in them, whereby they are able to do deeds that are generically good.” (ST II-II.10.4. ad 3).

By “connatural good” (the boni connaturalis) St Thomas is referring to the good which a thing tends to according to its own nature. In this sense, all rational creatures–including non-believers–tend towards the Divine goodness, even when they are not conscious of acting out of the love of God as such. Natural reason therefore, by its nature, seeks the supernatural (of course, there is much debate about the natural desire for the supernatural).

Faith, when properly formed by the Divine Law, gives us the assurance that our good works are oriented properly towards the praise and and honor of God. In his commentary on Hebrews 11:1 (“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”) St Thomas adds that “…it should be noted that in attempting to define any virtue perfectly, one must mention its proper matter with which it deals, and its end; because habits are recognized by their acts, and acts by their objects.” The acts and object of faith are determined by the Divine Law, of which the Church is the authentic guide. Hence, without the Church and the sacramental life, it is not possible to know or to act with this same assurance.

 

[casabolg]

In the Summa, St Thomas says “Faith directs the intention with regard to the supernatural last end: but even the light of natural reason [as in an unbeliever] can direct the intention in respect of a connatural good” (ST II-II.10.4.ad 2) and “Unbelief does not so wholly destroy natural reason in unbelievers, but that some knowledge of the truth remains in them, whereby they are able to do deeds that are generically good.” (ST II-II.10.4. ad 3).

By “connatural good” (the boni connaturalis) St Thomas is referring to the good which a thing tends to according to its own nature. In this sense, all rational creatures–including non-believers–tend towards the Divine goodness, even when they are not conscious of acting out of the love of God as such. Natural reason therefore, by its nature, seeks the supernatural (of course, there is much debate about the natural desire for the supernatural).

Faith, when properly formed by the Divine Law, gives us the assurance that our good works are oriented properly towards the praise and and honor of God. In his commentary on Hebrews 11:1 (“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”) St Thomas adds that “…it should be noted that in attempting to define any virtue perfectly, one must mention its proper matter with which it deals, and its end; because habits are recognized by their acts, and acts by their objects.” The acts and object of faith are determined by the Divine Law, of which the Church is the authentic guide. Hence, without the Church and the sacramental life, it is not possible to know or to act with this same assurance.

This is brill. Thank you.

 

[someperson555]

casabolg

You asked:

QUOTE:
what would be the difference between good works coming through grace and secular good works?

The fact that you even asked this question shows the concept is on your proverbial radar. This is very good.

I will try to get into more depth on this later as to the fact that these differing types of works DO occur.

someperson555, you said:

QUOTE:
There is no difference between secular good works or good works by “grace” as long as both are sincere and arise from genuine empathy.

I gotta tell you. I disagree with this statement.

You also said:

QUOTE:
Ironically I think many atheists would make better Christians than some self proclaimed Christians today.

There might be a grain of truth to your assertion . . . yet Scripture tells us without faith, it is impossible to please God. How do you harmonize your statement with Sacred Scripture which seems to contradict what you are saying?

HEBREWS 11:6 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

I’ll await your reply and proceed as indicated.

God bless.

Cathoholic

I meant to reply earlier because this is an interesting thread.
Well I believe the bible is the inspired word of God. So not every single verse should be believed.
Buti can still argue against your selected verse. Jesus also said " he who is not against you is with you". He also said " not everyone who says to me lord lord will be saved." Also in james it says: " you believe that there is one God. Good, the devils believe that and they shudder." So obviously scripture tells us that it is the heart that counts. You are focusing too much on surface actions.
Let me give you an example from my experience. A few years ago when I was in college I knew plenty of Christians and Muslim ls who had casual sex, drank, and did drugs. My girlfriend at the time was a virgin BUT she was an atheist. So do you believe God favored the other kids more? Or heres another example. There was a tv show about crimes caught on camera. There was this one incident where a robber tried to Rob a convenient store owned by a Muslim. The Muslim man was prepared and he soon disarmed the robber and had him at gunpoint. The robber started begging and pleading for his life and the Muslim man had mercy on him. Now compare that to the Italian mafia who had mostly Roman Catholics. Are you saying that God is more pleased with those Roman Catholic Mafiosos (who rob, kill, steal, commit adultery) just because they were lucky enough to be born Catholic, get baptized, and go through the motions? I dont think so. I myself dont do drugs or have promiscuous sex. I dont do drugs because my health is important to me, and I dont have promiscuous sex because sex is not the center of my life. I realise that there are greater pleasures. But I dont need the bible to tell me that. I don’t abstain from these things because God says so. I think thats better than just being a good dog who follows the rules because hes afraid of being punished.

Salvation cant be earned by outside works or surface behaviors. It requires an internal transformation. Thats part of what being " born again" means.
" for you do not desire sacrifice, a burnt offering you would not accept".

Also I would like to note that many atheists arent opposed to God himself. They are opposed to YOUR IMAGE of God that you have created. Many bad Christians misinterpret scripture and make God looks like a monster. A person with even the slightest sense of morality would detest q God who would harden someones heart only to have an excuse to punish him. Only a psychopath would agree with that
P.S ( NOT CALLING YOU A BAD CHRISTIAN. Sorry that came out wrong, but you know what I mean)

 

[someperson555]

Virtue:*HumilityWhen we are abiding in our true nature, our identity, does not require support from the approval of others or from our own self-regard. Humility is simply Being without self-reflecting. It is not self-disparagement as some of us have been taught, nor is it resisting satisfaction in our work or relationships. When we are really present and awake, issues about our identity and self-worth do not arise. Without attempting to be, we are humble.This quality gives very healthy Twos the ability to love others disinterestedly, without any thought of self, of being thanked or repaid, or of even having the good regard and appreciation of the people they do things for. They strive to do good unselfishly, helping others for others’ sake, without even thoughts of self-congratulations for the effort. They simply see a need and respond (or not) spontaneously and freely.- See more at: enneagraminstitute.com/the-traditional-enneagram/#sthash.f66JORFf.dpuf

• from the enneagram of personality. Type two description.

CONTINUED. ( from last post). Therefore I dont think it is necessary to know about God to be good. Knowing and believing can still just be surface actions of the mind. Most religious people have this brownie points mentality but that is very far from the true message of the gospels. I will not elaborate for now since I await your reply but I would like to add this. The greatest obstacle to good works is pride. The perfect antidote is humility.

 

[Cathoholic]

someperson555. you said in response to my post . . .

QUOTE:
Buti can still argue against your selected verse. Jesus also said " he who is not against you is with you". He also said " not everyone who says to me lord lord will be saved." Also in james it says: " you believe that there is one God. Good, the devils believe that and they shudder."

Are you saying you do not need faith to please God?

I am not sure what you are suggesting.

You also said:

QUOTE:
So obviously scripture tells us that it is the heart that counts.

You and I are in agreement here. The heart counts. (But a heart animated by grace)

You also said:

QUOTE:
You are focusing too much on surface actions.

Actually I am not focusing on surface actions. I am trying to point to justifying grace animating surface actions.

someperson555, the Catholic Church does not look at good works as “brownie points”.

Here is what the Council of Trent says about brownie points, in the sense of works done apart from the grace of God . . .

TRENT CANON I (Session VI) - If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

The CCC echoes this in slightly different language saying . . .

CCC 1282 Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.

CCC 1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

I am not saying some people don’t look at good works that way (with a “brownie point” mentality). I am just saying this is not Catholic teaching on good works.

Regarding good works we CANNOT DO good works on our own at least in the fullest sense.

The Council of Trent teaches us that our faith and good works are preceded by grace and animated by grace.

Someone who is not in a grace relationship with God, does not have these graces (by definition).

I am not saying they cannot be saved eventually. I am just saying that these are “works” done in vain.

St. Paul reminds us in 1st Corinthians 13, that we can give up or bodies to be burned but if we have not (the grace of) love or “charity”, we are nothing and gain nothing.

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3, 13 2 and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

This is WHY Jesus says “apart from Me, you can do nothing.”

And as Jimmy Akin says: “But with Him, we can do some stuff.”