Gospel authenticity & Witnesses

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Micawber

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Sorry if this has been gone over a thousand times but my searches didn’t turn anything up. Also sorry if the question is asinine. 😊

How are we to understand the authenticity of Gospels in sections where there could be no witnesses? For example, Christ in Gethsemane? Or Christ in the Desert? Are we to assume that the Gospel writers were inspired to write these things? Or that Jesus informed them of what happened?

Thanks muchly.

~cawbs
 
John 21:25 says, “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen”. John 14:26 says, “But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” In light of these two verses, it seems obvious that Jesus told the Disciples of these things at some point during the time He was with them, and that the Holy Spirit brought it to their remembrance when the time came to report it.
 
Sorry if this has been gone over a thousand times but my searches didn’t turn anything up. Also sorry if the question is asinine. 😊

How are we to understand the authenticity of Gospels in sections where there could be no witnesses? For example, Christ in Gethsemane? Or Christ in the Desert? Are we to assume that the Gospel writers were inspired to write these things? Or that Jesus informed them of what happened?

Thanks muchly.

~cawbs
Read something official from the church on this like the: *“Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels” *by the Pontifical Biblical Commission and Pope Paul VI (available online). The gospels are NOT historical documents, they are teaching documents.
 
**The Gospels as history

**It is not infrequent that, in contemporary biblical exegesis, one finds assertions that certain aspects of the life of Christ as recorded in the gospels are unhistorical. With striking confidence it is declared that particular events and teachings are the outgrowth of the evangelists’ imagination, or a retrospective projection of events and sayings, which amplify the personality of Christ in the light of the Resurrection. Thus it is alleged, for example, that the infancy narratives in Luke and Matthew are creations of the sacred writers in the light of some parallel Old Testament events, and that this is a literary device to give status to the birth of Jesus. Consequently, according to some exegetes, there is no historical basis for the message of the angels to the shepherds, or the visit of the Magi to Bethlehem. The historical authenticity of central doctrines of the faith such as the virginal conception of Christ, Jesus’ self-knowledge as the pre-existing Son of God, the fact that he instituted the priesthood and the episcopacy are frequently impugned, doctrines the certainty of which the Church has always seen affirmed in the gospel accounts.


How important is it for our faith that we be certain the gospels are truly historical?
Catholic faith is based on God’s natural revelation of himself to man. This revelation centers on the Incarnation, life and teaching of Jesus Christ, Son of God, the Word made flesh. We are reminded by the Vatican II constitution on Divine Revelation that “God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout out the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.”[1] It was part of this design that, at the prompting of the Spirit, a written record would be compiled of the life and teachings of Christ. Among these inspired writings, the gospels have a special place because, according to the same conciliar text, “they are our principal source for the life and teachings of the Incarnate Word, our Saviour[2]
 
HISTORY OF “DEI VERBUM”

The discussion extended over all four sessions.
  1. At first session, they were deadlocked on the matter of one or two
    sources of revelation. John XXIII therefore created a special joint
    commission representing both tendencies, to draw up a new text, which was
    given out in May 1963.
On August 9, 1963 Bishop Schröffer of Eichstätt, Germany, a liberal on the
Theological commission told the bishops who were coming to the conference
at Fulda that the revised form was “the result of a laborious struggle”,
and was just a compromise. He said that no more concessions could be
achieved. He sent along a letter from Rahner, backed by Grillmeier,
Semmelroth and Ratzinger saying that it was "a peaceful compromise which
avoids many causes of division, but which therefore avoids mentioning many
things concerning which additional doctrine would be welcome. So the
Fulda conference asked that the new schema should be discussed at the
Council not at the start of the second session but later. So it was not
listed for discussion at all.

But at the end of the second session the European Alliance managed to get
four new members on the Theological Commission.

The text had, “successfully skirted the difficult problem of defining
whether the whole of revelation was or was not contained in Sacred
Scripture” (W, p. 177).

P. 177: Bishop Compagnone of Anagni said they must not deviate from the
doctrine of Trent and Vatican I, which said tradition was more extensive
than Scripture. “Although the majority did not consider it opportune to
introduce this teaching in the text, care should be taken to avoid giving
the impression that the Council was turning its back on earlier
decisions.”

Council of Trent in DS 1501: “This general Council of Trent. . . seeing
that this truth and discipline are contained in written books and
unwritten traditions, which were received from the mouth of Christ Himself
by the Apostles, or from the Apostles themselves under the dictation of
the Holy Spirit [and] have come down to us handed down as it were, [This
Council] following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, it [this Council]
accepts and venerates with equal devotion and reverence all the books of
both the Old and the New Testament, since God is the author of each, and
the tradition pertaining to both faith and morals, as orally given by
Christ or dictated by the Holy Spirit, and kept in continuous succession
in the Catholic Church.”

P. 179: “'Pope Paul on September 14, sent the following quotation from St.
Augustine: 'There are many things which the entire Church holds, and they
are therefore correctly believed to have been taught by the Apostles, even
though they are not to be found in written form. ’ For some reason, the
question was never brought up at any of the meetings of the Commission on
October 1, 4, and 6. A long and heated discussion took place on the
proposal of the 111 Council Fathers, and the decision was finally reached
on October 6 to retain the text unchanged.”

P. 179: “The point at issue in Article 19, on the historicity of the
Gospels, was the phrase ‘true and sincere things about Jesus’ An amendment
prepared by the International Group was submitted by 158 Council Fathers
to reword the phrase to read ‘true and sincere history’ or ‘true
historical narrative.’”. . . But again the Theological Commission decided
not to change the text.

P. 180: A solution to the problem of Article 9 was submitted to Pope Paul
by Archbishop - now Cardinal - Florit, of Florence. . . . He suggested
that Pope Paul reconvene the commission and ask it to reconsider carefully
the necessity or the opportuneness, of stating explicitly in the schema
that not every Catholic doctrine could be proved from sacred Scripture
alone. The thorny problem of whether tradition contained more revealed
truths than Scripture was an altogether different question and would not
be touched on. . . . He proposed, therefore, the addition of these words
to Article 9: ‘Consequently, not every Catholic doctrine can be proved
from Sacred Scripture alone.’"

P. 180: Complaints were also submitted to Pope Paul concerning Article 19,
and it was known that he himself felt the phrase ‘true ad sincere things’
to be unconvincing and unsatisfactory. . . . .

P. 181: In a letter dated October 18 to Cardinal Ottaviani. . . the
Secretary of State enclosed further observations of Pope Paul on the three
disputed articles and informed the Cardinal of the Pope’s decision to
reconvene the commission. . . . This letter had been dictated by the Pope
himself on October 17.

P. 182: After some discussion and balloting the Commission decided
to add to Article 9 the words: ‘Consequently it is not from Sacred
Scripture alone that the Church draws its certainty about everything which
has been revealed.’
**
P. 182: “With regard to article 19, Cardinal Cicognani advised the
Commission that Pope Paul regarded the words 'true and sincere” as
insufficient. . . . It was then suggested that the historicity of the
Gospels should be asserted without equivocation earlier in the same
paragraph; this would preclude any ambiguity concerning the words ‘true
and sincere’, which could then be retained. This solution, which achieved
the purpose intended by the Pope and also contained the substance of his
proposal was voted upon and adopted. . . to read as follows: 'Holy Mother
Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold,
that the four Gospels. . . . whose historical character the Church
unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ. . . really
did and taught for their eternal salvation."**

On Nov. 28 the Constitution was accepted 2344 to 6. The Pope at once
promulgated it.
 
What does Section 7 of Dei Verbum teach?

For 2000 years the Church has taught that two Apostles, who had lived with Christ wrote gospels and two men, who knew some of the Apostles, wrote another two. All four should be treated as reliable historical documents.
In 1965, the Second Vatican Council issued Dei Verbum as a Doctrinal Constitution. In this the Church restated her teaching, as may be seen from reading an extract from Sections 7. The following is as translated by Walter Abbott, S.J. and published in: ‘The Documents of Vatican II’ of the same year:
“This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by ordinances, handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing”.

**more…
**
 
Thanks all and many thanks to buffalo! VERY helpful indeed. 🙂
You should be a little careful of this. All these references are to a website named “www.churchinhistory.org” which has no documented relationship to the Church and whose authors do not appear to have any credentials as to why one should pay attention to what they say. They *may *be ok but they consistently present a very conservative and fundamentalist approach and there is no evidence presented as to why their writings are even compatible with Church teachings. They are certainly not writing as representatives of the Church in any official way and their writings are not dogmatic teachings.

I would read them in the same manner as you should read most things on these forums - unofficial opinions of very opiniated random strangers.

And don’t forget about the *“Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels” *(they like to ignore it).
 
You should be a little careful of this. All these references are to a website named “www.churchinhistory.org” which has no documented relationship to the Church and whose authors do not appear to have any credentials as to why one should pay attention to what they say. They *may *be ok but they consistently present a very conservative and fundamentalist approach and there is no evidence presented as to why their writings are even compatible with Church teachings. They are certainly not writing as representatives of the Church in any official way and their writings are not dogmatic teachings.

I would read them in the same manner as you should read most things on these forums - unofficial opinions of very opiniated random strangers.

And don’t forget about the *“Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels” *(they like to ignore it).
Not. If you check you will see the EWTN library reference.

It is quite sufficient for any reader to see the actually documents referenced. In addition the footnotes all can be checked.

Read Pope Benedicts “Jesus of Nazareth”.

then
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090415_en.html
BENEDICT XVI
GENERAL AUDIENCE
Saint Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 15 April 2009

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090415_en.html
 
Not. If you check you will see the EWTN library reference.

It is quite sufficient for any reader to see the actually documents referenced. In addition the footnotes all can be checked.
These few references do not alter the fact that most everything on this site is opinion with a very conservative bias, somewhat based on Church documents. It is certainly interesting to read but people should know what they are reading, who has written it, and what the relationship is between the opinions and dogmatic teaching.

It isn’t much different than reading the opinions expressed here.

Why not also refer people to the works of John Meier, Raymond Brown, Ronald Witherup, the PBC, and Margaret Ralph? At least they have the credentials to back up their words (along with the nihil obstat and *imprimatur *sorely lacking in “churchinhistory”).
 
The gospels are NOT historical documents, they are teaching documents.
okay, I’ll read that. Thanks! I do wonder what is meant by this^^ however. Does it mean that the Gospels are not to be considered literally true wrt the incarnation, miracles, teachings, death, resurrection, ascension of Christ?
 
okay, I’ll read that. Thanks! I do wonder what is meant by this^^ however. Does it mean that the Gospels are not to be considered literally true wrt the incarnation, miracles, teachings, death, resurrection, ascension of Christ?
Actually the church is pretty open to study and analysis on this topic. There are only a small handful of events in the scriptures which Catholics are required to believe by dogamatic declaration. These include the immaculate conception, the incarnation, the resurection, the institution of the eucharist, and a few others.

There is no requirement whatsoever to read the gospels as if they were literal history, The dogmatic documents on interpretation, such as the relatively recent *Dei Verbum, *encourage the use of both historical-critical analysis and literary form analysis in studying the gospels. Such techniques open up deeper levels of meaning than a literalistic reading does. The church instructs us to consider the literal meaning but it never states that you must stop there or that the truth is only contained in the literal. Fiction is a perfectly valid vehicle for revelation and fiction is perfectly capable of teaching the deepest truths. That is why the church does not insist that we believe such stories as Jesus’ Infancy Narratives to be literally true - a simple literary form analysis reveals them to be common fictional constructions used by the ancients to tell the reader the importance of the person they are describing.

There are excellent Catholic books on this by the Church’s most eminent scripture scholars. I highly recommend:

*Biblical Fundamentalism, What Every Catholic Should Know *(imprimatur & nihil obstat) by Ronald Witherup S.S.

The Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Bible by the Pontifical Biblical Commission and Pope Paul VI (available online). This document makes it quite clear that the gospels do not not contain first person accounts of the words and deeds of Jesus.

And God Said What?: An Introduction to Biblical Literary Forms by Margaret Ralph. Used in many parish adult scripture classes.

The multi-volume series ***A Marginal Jew: Rethinking The Historical Jesus ***by John P. Meier S.S. (imprimatur and nihil obstat). I believe Fr. Meier’s series is up to four volumes now and represents a serious analysis of history and the gospels based on current biblical scholarship. Fr. Meier has some very serious credentials.

Here are a few excerpts from the PBC’s instruction:

*For the truth of the story is not at all affected by the fact that the Evangelists relate the words and deeds of the Lord in a different order *and express his sayings not literally but differently, while preserving (their) sense.

But these modes of speaking with which the preachers proclaimed Christ must be distinguished and (properly) assessed: catecheses, stories, testimonia, hymns, doxologies, prayers–and other literary forms of this sort which were in Sacred Scripture and were accustomed to be used by men of that time.

For in composing them the sacred writers employed the way of thinking and writing which was in vogue among their contemporaries. Finally, the exegete will use all the means available to probe more deeply into the nature of Gospel testimony,


And finally, a statement by Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J (one of the translators of the document):

*The most significant thing in the whole document, when all is said and done, is that the Biblical Commission calmly and frankly admits that what is contained in the Gospels as we have them today is not the words and deeds of Jesus in the first stage of tradition, nor even the form in which they were preached in the second stage, but only in the form compiled and edited by the Evangelists. This form, however, reflects the two previous stages, and the second more than the first. It is good to recall that this redacted form of the sayings and deeds of Jesus which the Evangelists give us is the inspired form. The Evangelists were inspired by the Holy Spirit to compile and write down the accounts as they did. **This inspiration guarantees their Gospel truth, which is free from error. But it is also good to recall that neither the Church in her official pronouncements on the nature of inspiration, nor the theologians in their speculative treatments of it, have taught that the necessary formal effect of inspiration is historicity. *The consequence of inspiration is inerrancy, i.e., immunity from formal error in what is affirmed. The opposite of inerrancy is not simply historicity but truth. But there is poetical truth as well as historical truth, rhetorical truth as well as legal truth, mythical truth as well as the Gospel truth. If a passage in the Gospels contains historical truth, it does not simply contain it because it is inspired. The reasons for its historicity will be quite other than the inspired character of the text. The inspiration may guarantee such historical truth as is there, but it will not guarantee it any more than it would guarantee the poetic truth of the hymn to Christ in Phil 2. Its guarantee is not quantitative but qualitative and analogous. The inspired Gospel truth was intended by God to give us not simply a “remembered” account of the doctrine and life of Jesus, but a “preached” form of it, “so as to offer the Church a basis of faith and of morals” (par. X).
 
Thanks so much Patg! I’m very impressed with what I’ve read about Meier’s volumes so far. Really looking forward to them. 🙂
**This inspiration guarantees their Gospel truth, which is free from error. But it is also good to recall that neither the Church in her official pronouncements on the nature of inspiration, nor the theologians in their speculative treatments of it, have taught that the necessary formal effect of inspiration is historicity. **
Something about this ^^ doesn’t sit well with me. If we cannot rely on the “historicity” of (for example) the resurrection, where does that leave us? This is a serious question.

If the Gospel writers were inspired to narrate the resurrection as a symbol or philosophical truth that transcends literal history, then (even if the source of that inspiration is/was the Holy Spirit) what we are left with is a kind of inspired theology, not a faith based upon literal historical event.

This seems directly contrary to my (admittedly facile 😊) understanding of the Catholic faith.
 
Thanks so much Patg! I’m very impressed with what I’ve read about Meier’s volumes so far. Really looking forward to them. 🙂
Something about this ^^ doesn’t sit well with me. If we cannot rely on the “historicity” of (for example) the resurrection, where does that leave us? This is a serious question.

If the Gospel writers were inspired to narrate the resurrection as a symbol or philosophical truth that transcends literal history, then (even if the source of that inspiration is/was the Holy Spirit) what we are left with is a kind of inspired theology, not a faith based upon literal historical event.

This seems directly contrary to my (admittedly facile 😊) understanding of the Catholic faith.
Everyone’s definition of “historical fact” can be different - there is the academic historian’s definition and there is that of the average pew sitter. Partly for this reason, the Church has dogmatically declared that Catholics must believe the resurrection to be a literal historic event. Note that this does not necessarily mean much to a serious historian.

To me, belief in the resurrection as a “historical fact” is a matter of faith and acceptance of the dogmatic teaching of the Church. There is little or no evidence to believe in it for any other reason. If there were, historians would would write history texts which state that a man rose from the dead 2000 years ago. They don’t write such things because there isn’t sufficient evidence to make that statement (note - this has been a much discussed topic here in the past and some disagree with these views). Would you believe in the literal historicity of a radical event, the description of which only occurs in a document written long after the event by the “insiders” of the group making the claim and for which there were no reported witnesses?

What would it take for you to “rely on the “historicity” of the resurrection”? Is that different than, for example, relying on the historicity of angels talking to shepherds in the fields around Bethlehem (which is* not* a dogmatically required belief)?

I enjoyed Meier’s books a lot but they can get pretty deep at times. That’s why we use less technical ones like And God said what… in adult education classes.
 
Are the Gospels Historical?

In the wake of the movie The Passion of The Christ many have asked if the Gospel accounts are reliable sources of information on the death of Jesus, or on His life and teaching for that matter. Some scholars and clergy, even Catholics, have argued that the Gospels are statements of faith and not history, that they were written well after the fact, even as late as the second century, and that they therefore represent the teachings of the developing Church not the events as they actually occurred. This view, unfortunately, has also found its way into parish catechetics and homiletics, as evidenced by efforts to explain away the miracles, healings and exorcisms of the Lord. These “theories”, however, run counter to the witness of the Gospels themselves, the testimony of the Fathers and the constant and unanimous teaching of the Church. Consider, for example, what St. Luke reports he was doing in writing his Gospel.

more…
 
Would you believe in the literal historicity of a radical event, the description of which only occurs in a document written long after the event by the “insiders” of the group making the claim and for which there were no reported witnesses?

What would it take for you to “rely on the “historicity” of the resurrection”?
Of course, you’re right, there’s no incontrovertible proof of, say, the resurrection - but of course, that can be said of many things that even professional historians assume as “fact.” As you well know, the whole concept of “facts” in historical research is a hotly debated one.

Having just finished Wright’s massive study about the Resurrection, my mind is in a bit of a storm about this (coming to Wright with the conviction that the resurrection was symbolic, etc.). However, I suppose I now believe that the strongest overall evidence (among other things) for its historicity is the profound effect the resurrection had on his followers.

Truly, can any other “radical” event as recounted in the Bible be said to have influenced so many people into martyrdom?
 
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