Gospel Jazz Mass

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RosalieM

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I love my new parish and was a little taken aback to see that the upcoming vigil mass this weekend will be a “gospel jazz mass”.:eek: Don’t get me wrong, I like gospel music and some jazz, but not at Catholic mass. The cantor told us it would be “spirited”.
Okay, but I’m going to a different mass and I don’t think we should be having a gospel jazz mass because I think it’s, well, Protestant.🤷
At first I thought I should go because I didn’t want to be a fuddy duddy…but I know it would upset me.
My concern is why do we have to try to cater to every taste? What’s wrong with being Catholic at a Catholic mass?
 
I LOVE the MASS and I really like jazz. Don’t think I’d appreciate the combination, though…
 
You should go. Take a few notes. Write a kind letter to the pastor asking for change. Then write another letter to the bishop stating the same. This second letter by the way is needed because the pastor will not do anything. Neither will the bishop, most likely.

Send your concern then to the Congregation for The Doctrine of The Faith. They now have a convenient e-mail address at cdf@cfaith.va

Be concise, state the problem, and reference the church document that condemns these liturgical abuses. It will make a difference.

We finally have a pope that is “cleaning house.” He needs to hear what is going on. Start writing.

Brush up on the General Instruction of The Roman Missal (G.I.R.M.) and the exhortation titled Redemptionis Sacramentum. You can cite sections and paragraphs from these as references.
 
RosalieM said:
I love my new parish and was a little taken aback to see that the upcoming vigil mass this weekend will be a “gospel jazz mass”.:eek: Don’t get me wrong, I like gospel music and some jazz, but not at Catholic mass. The cantor told us it would be “spirited”.
Okay, but I’m going to a different mass and I don’t think we should be having a gospel jazz mass because I think it’s, well, Protestant.🤷
At first I thought I should go because I didn’t want to be a fuddy duddy…but I know it would upset me.
My concern is why do we have to try to cater to every taste? What’s wrong with being Catholic at a Catholic mass?
Click to expand...
I thought all of this sort of thing had died out in the 1970’s and '80’s! What are they going to do next- an oompah band mass, a polka mass? All to be followed by a circus mass…
 
An addition to my last. I think someone should alert the pastor that historically jazz began in the brothals of New Orleans, and progressed upwards to the slimiest of dives after the US Navy closed down the Storyville section of New Orleans because of its rampant vice.
Like it or not, even considering its popularity, a church, let alone the Mass is not a proper venue for Jazz and its use thereof reeks of scandal.
 
Samuel63 said:
Send your concern then to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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Wouldn’t the more competent dicastery in this case be the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments?
 
Samuel63 said:
You should go. Take a few notes. Write a kind letter to the pastor asking for change. Then write another letter to the bishop stating the same. This second letter by the way is needed because the pastor will not do anything. Neither will the bishop, most likely.

Send your concern then to the Congregation for The Doctrine of The Faith. They now have a convenient e-mail address at cdf@cfaith.va

Be concise, state the problem, and reference the church document that condemns these liturgical abuses. It will make a difference.

We finally have a pope that is “cleaning house.” He needs to hear what is going on. Start writing.

Brush up on the General Instruction of The Roman Missal (G.I.R.M.) and the exhortation titled Redemptionis Sacramentum. You can cite sections and paragraphs from these as references.
Click to expand...
My parish is actually the seat of the city’s archbishop, so he knows about it. I thought the same thing that the pope is making things more reverent, and this gospel jazz mass shouldn’t be happening. Good thoughts, everyone. I also thought of the origins of jazz (as another post mentions) and some of that comes through in the music, for lack of better expression, I’d call it a sound of compromise with the seamy side of life. As for gospel music, I respect that it is an expression of different Christian denominations but I don’t feel it’s appropriate for a Catholic mass.
It could be the last time this happens before the new changes that come with advent; I sincerely hope so. The music director at my parish was recently awarded recognition for his achievements by the pope. This isn’t coming from him. I think it’s something they’re used to doing every year.
 
I see a lot of stone throwing here.
“Let he who has not sinned…”

Does your parish offer an Ordinary Form mass which is mostly Sung, following the rubrics, using Gregorian Chant and all the antiphons?

If it does and you want to be traditional about these things then go to that mass.

If it doesn’t then get together with a few other traditionalists and ask for one. Then ask again and again until you get what the GIRM recommends as the benchmark against which all liturgical music and other elements of liturgical style should be judged.
This should be the Ordinary form - Preferably mostly or entirely in the Vernacular (Though it is quite appropriate to have some or many parts in Latin.) This should not be a Tridentine Mass. (Lets get the O.F. right before worrying about the E.F.)

If you have this then attend it. Encourage others to do the same - both Ordained Religious and Laity. - Young & Old.

The Catholic church is Universal - it is appropriate that it should reach out to many different groups.
Gospel Music does have roots which have a link to the roots of classical Jazz as suggested above - but they are different.

Trust me when I say this: the traditional hymnal containing all those “old Favourites” sung at your normal sunday mass is 90% protestant in origin as well!!! - Many of the hymns contained within are totally fail when assessed for any standard of objective “Beauty”, and some are downright heritical. This is true of every Hymn book I’ve ever come across. It dosn’t matter it it’s “Traditional” “Modern” “Folk” “Gospel”
if you want to be really purist about it no hymns belong in the mass - they are used to replace the Antiphons which should be chanted in Gregorian Chant - but they are permitted. And no specific style is mentioned either prohibitively or permissively.

Many styles of music are available. so keep holy the Lords day. Attend mass on Sunday morning when you’re supposed to. & leave the Saturday Night “heritics” to be preached to by the priest who’s job it is to minister to them.
If the Lord can use an *** to speak to Job, and to carry Jesus - then I’m sure he can use some interesting music (that’s slightly more interesting than hearing a “traditional” hymn of praise sung like it 's a funeral dirge by a choir who didn’t practice it more than once and played by an organist who’s arthritis creaks louder than the organ pipes) that gets people to come into the church and engage with the Lords Liturgy.

So: Before you try preaching to someone else’s choir: get your own one in order!

Out of interest: You wont find the organ mentioned in the bible (And yes they did exist in pre- Christian Greek culture: so at least from the time of Maccabies onwards).
You will find references to Wind, Brass, plucked & strummed Strings, and percussion instruments: The cultural equivalents to our flutes, sax’s, guitars, trumpets, drums etc.
 
anruari said:
I see a lot of stone throwing here.
“Let he who has not sinned…”

Does your parish offer an Ordinary Form mass which is mostly Sung, following the rubrics, using Gregorian Chant and all the antiphons?

If it does and you want to be traditional about these things then go to that mass.

If it doesn’t then get together with a few other traditionalists and ask for one. Then ask again and again until you get what the GIRM recommends as the benchmark against which all liturgical music and other elements of liturgical style should be judged.
This should be the Ordinary form - Preferably mostly or entirely in the Vernacular (Though it is quite appropriate to have some or many parts in Latin.) This should not be a Tridentine Mass. (Lets get the O.F. right before worrying about the E.F.)

If you have this then attend it. Encourage others to do the same - both Ordained Religious and Laity. - Young & Old.

The Catholic church is Universal - it is appropriate that it should reach out to many different groups.
Gospel Music does have roots which have a link to the roots of classical Jazz as suggested above - but they are different.

Trust me when I say this: the traditional hymnal containing all those “old Favourites” sung at your normal sunday mass is 90% protestant in origin as well!!! - Many of the hymns contained within are totally fail when assessed for any standard of objective “Beauty”, and some are downright heritical. This is true of every Hymn book I’ve ever come across. It dosn’t matter it it’s “Traditional” “Modern” “Folk” “Gospel”
if you want to be really purist about it no hymns belong in the mass - they are used to replace the Antiphons which should be chanted in Gregorian Chant - but they are permitted. And no specific style is mentioned either prohibitively or permissively.

Many styles of music are available. so keep holy the Lords day. Attend mass on Sunday morning when you’re supposed to. & leave the Saturday Night “heritics” to be preached to by the priest who’s job it is to minister to them.
If the Lord can use an *** to speak to Job, and to carry Jesus - then I’m sure he can use some interesting music (that’s slightly more interesting than hearing a “traditional” hymn of praise sung like it 's a funeral dirge by a choir who didn’t practice it more than once and played by an organist who’s arthritis creaks louder than the organ pipes) that gets people to come into the church and engage with the Lords Liturgy.

So: Before you try preaching to someone else’s choir: get your own one in order!

Out of interest: You wont find the organ mentioned in the bible (And yes they did exist in pre- Christian Greek culture: so at least from the time of Maccabies onwards).
You will find references to Wind, Brass, plucked & strummed Strings, and percussion instruments: The cultural equivalents to our flutes, sax’s, guitars, trumpets, drums etc.
Click to expand...
Thank you! I plan to just skip vigil mass this weekend. I got in the habit of it because I used to be in another parish’s choir and wanted to worship at one weekend mass without flipping thru music and performing like on Sunday mass. Yes, my new parish has a completely gregorian mass at 9 a.m. Sunday morning and a “regular” mass at 11 a.m. Sunday and a Spanish mass at 1 p.m. Sunday.
As for the jazz/gospel mass,I don’t want to throw stones or lock horns with a pastor or a bishop, no less! I’ve sung those “iffy” hymns and Protestant songs. I think your answer is best and I feel right about switching to Sundays when I can do so.👍
Who knows, this may be the Holy Spirit stepping up my prayer life by “nudging” me while keeping a different kind of invitation (the gospel jazz mass) to people of a different mindset.
 
RosalieM said:
My concern is why do we have to try to cater to every taste? What’s wrong with being Catholic at a Catholic mass?
Click to expand...
I agree with you, I don’t think that I’d appreciate jazz music at mass… but you DO realize the irony of this statement, right?
 
Music at Mass is part of the liturgy. We can praise God with any style of music if it is performed with a sincere heart. The difficulty is that most of us have restricted tastes. Music for Masses can be in a range of styles including plainchant, polyphony, baroque, classical, Victorian, country, folk, jazz, soul, rock and rap. I can cope with most although I find Arvo Pärt’s Berlin Mass a little heavy going.

I have been to a jazz “Mass” at an Anglican Church. They have since joined the ordinariate, so I can leave out the quotes next time. I didn’t find it offensive and those involved were certainly raising up their hearts and minds to God - not to mention the trombone slides.

If you feel that a particular style of music might have an adverse effect on your prayer - don’t go. On the other hand, if you approach it with an open mind, you may find that it expands your prayer repertoire.
 
George_Stegmeir said:
An addition to my last. I think someone should alert the pastor that historically jazz began in the brothals of New Orleans, and progressed upwards to the slimiest of dives after the US Navy closed down the Storyville section of New Orleans because of its rampant vice.
Like it or not, even considering its popularity, a church, let alone the Mass is not a proper venue for Jazz and its use thereof reeks of scandal.
Click to expand...
That’s a disgustingly over-simplistic and offensive attack on black american cultural music. The origins of Jazz lie in the confluence of african musical styles with european instrumentation. Although new orleans music had a strong effect on jazz music, it most certainly was not the origin of jazz, nor has it’s influence even touched all jazz music.
 
anruari said:
Out of interest: **You wont find the organ mentioned in the bible **(And yes they did exist in pre- Christian Greek culture: so at least from the time of Maccabies onwards).
You will find references to Wind, Brass, plucked & strummed Strings, and percussion instruments: The cultural equivalents to our flutes, sax’s, guitars, trumpets, drums etc.
Click to expand...
That’s ok, we don’t believe in sola scriptura. The church says it’s the most important instrument for the liturgy. That’s good enough for me.
 
TheMc said:
That’s ok, we don’t believe in sola scriptura. The church says it’s the most important instrument for the liturgy. That’s good enough for me.
Click to expand...
Please find me a single church document that posits what you’ve stated here.

The church teaches that in the LATIN RITE, the organ and chant have pride of place, and then only when all other things are equal. It does not state in any way, shape, or form, that they are the most important instruments for the liturgy.
 
promethius said:
Please find me a single church document that posits what you’ve stated here.

The church teaches that in the LATIN RITE, the organ and chant have pride of place, and then only when all other things are equal. It does not state in any way, shape, or form, that they are the most important instruments for the liturgy.
Click to expand...
:juggle:
 
promethius said:
Please find me a single church document that posits what you’ve stated here.

The church teaches that in the LATIN RITE, the organ and chant have pride of place, and then only when all other things are equal. It does not state in any way, shape, or form, that they are the most important instruments for the liturgy.
Click to expand...
De Musica Sacra No. 61:

The principal musical instrument for solemn liturgical ceremonies of the Latin [western] Church has been and remains the classic pipe organ.

I’d also note that in the GIRM, the organ is the only instrument mentioned by name. That alone should send a strong message.

You can talk yourself in circles until 1=2 and up is down, and black is white, but anyone who reads the church documents with honesty must conclude that the organ is the principal instrument of the Roman Rite, and that gregorian chant and polyphony should be used on a regular basis, if not at every Mass.
 
TheMc said:
De Musica Sacra No. 61:
The principal musical instrument for solemn liturgical ceremonies of the Latin [western] Church has been and remains the classic pipe organ.
I’d also note that in the GIRM, the organ is the only instrument mentioned by name. You can talk yourself in circles until 1=2 and up is down, and black is white, but anyone who reads the church documents with honesty must conclude that the organ is the principal instrument of the Roman Rite, and that gregorian chant and polyphony should be used on a regular basis, if not at every Mass.
Click to expand...
There is, however, a vast difference between what you are saying here and what you said earlier, which, if you recall, was: "The church says it’s the most important instrument for the liturgy"
 
promethius said:
That’s a disgustingly over-simplistic and offensive attack on black american cultural music. The origins of Jazz lie in the confluence of african musical styles with european instrumentation. Although new orleans music had a strong effect on jazz music, it most certainly was not the origin of jazz, nor has it’s influence even touched all jazz music.
Click to expand...
Like it or not it is true. Jazz was originally developed in the Storyville section of New Orleans, and unless you consider Rag Time to be Jazz (which, historically it is not) was unknown outside the New Orleans area before 1914. Its origins in Storyville was the reason many Protestant black families did not permit such music to be played in their homes and it holds true to this day-especially in the Deep South. It is still considered the music of sin by many religious African-Americans.
 
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