Gospel of John 20:19-23-Catholic Bible vs KJV

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I have started exploring apologetics and I just began studying confession and why protestant faiths don’t believe. But…I don’t know why they don’t believe.

The Catholic Bible and the KJV both say the same thing. KJV has fancier words. The Catholic Bible says “Forgive” and the KJV says “Remit”. They both mean the same thing.

Why do they deny it when it’s right infront of them? I don’t get it. There are so many other things that are right infront of them and if they would listen to what they read…they would convert and become a Catholic…right.

I realize they can’t practice the sacrament of reconciliation because they don’t have the priests to do it. I just want someone elses insight. Thanks. Tina.
 
It has to do with 1 John 1:19
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”
What the mainline Protestant argument is, is more or less the following:
  1. God knows mens hearts
  2. We need to repent from our sins
  3. If we repent in our heart, God knows and will forgive us.
  4. Confession is simply repentance, either spoken or not, and it is only a matter between God and me.
They typical response about confession is, “Why can’t I confess my sins straight to God?”

Some have backed off of this a little, and have claimed that we are all able to hear confession (James 2). They then make “accountability partners” to confess to (if you do a web search, you’ll find a lot of sites about this), understanding that God doesn’t work through them, but rather the items listed earlier are what confer absolution.

To help answer these oddities, you may go to the following links:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9101frs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0410fea4.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9810fea2.asp

Good luck, and may God use you as an instrument to spread His love and truth,

RyanL
 
Hi Tina! 🙂

I think RyanL said it well:
What the mainline Protestant argument is, is more or less the following:
  1. God knows mens hearts
  2. We need to repent from our sins
  3. If we repent in our heart, God knows and will forgive us.
  4. Confession is simply repentance, either spoken or not, and it is only a matter between God and me.
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They typical response about confession is, “Why can’t I confess my sins straight to God?”
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I want to add that this is what they are raised to believe. They have been thaught it at it at home, among relatives and friends and probaply through school. It’s an integrated part of them to believe so.

Some of them think that a catholic confession is some sort of “psychoterapy” like Freud’s talkingcure. We get relief by talk to an other person (the priest) about things that bother us, they think. They don’t understand that Jesus forgives us through the priest. Some (mostly SDA’s even think it is blasphemic that the priest says "I absolve … ". Then he makes himself a god, they think (LOL, its nearly unbelievable what non-catholics can believe about us).

I am a convert to catholisism (from lutheranism), and I think that if you want to do apologetic work, it isn’t smart to start with the things that seems most strange to them, Mary and confession to a priest.

Explane when they ask about these aspects of catholisism, but don’t make it faster than they are able to take in. The most important thing is that you are able to focus on that it was Jesus Christ that instituted the Catholic Church and that catholic means “for all”. When they start to be curious about that, they will start some research themselves, and then you have a much better “workingplace” for the rest. 👍

:blessyou:
 
I think to understand the Scarament of Confession a book recommendation is in order.

Go and get, “Lord have Mercy” by Scott Hahn. It is a great book that explains confession from the beginning of salvation history! It is a very easy read and you will be astounded at all the opportunites God has made for us to confess our sins starting from the very beginning with Adam and Eve!

You’ll see Confession is a whole different light!
 
If you look at the 1st Letter of St. John 5:16-17, St. John tells us: “He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinineth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.” (DRB)

What St. John tells us here is that sin which is not deadly, (venial), CAN BE confessed straight to God. However, this only covers venial sins.

So, from here, where do you go to confess your Mortal Sins? (Of course the Church :))
 
Kenandbarbie said:
The Catholic Bible and the KJV both say the same thing. KJV has fancier words. The Catholic Bible says “Forgive” and the KJV says “Remit”. They both mean the same thing.
Why do they deny it when it’s right infront of them? I don’t get it. There are so many other things that are right infront of them and if they would listen to what they read…they would convert and become a Catholic…right.
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Hi
The solution lies that the original/source document is also provided on the opposite page. One has to follow the original teaching, whereever one has some query one could consult the original, otherwise the confusion would remain.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
 
In case anybody wants to see the verses here instead of looking them up, here they are.

From the Douay Rheims
Joh 20:19 Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
Joh 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
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From the KJV
Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
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I think the fallacy in the Protestant “rationalization” is the 2nd half of the statement. *** Those sins you retain they are retained.*** If that line were not in there, you could buy off on their accountability partners.
 
While Protestants might be induced to admit that the Apostles had the extraordinary power to forgive sins (granted them by the Lord Himself), we/they do not accept that this special ability was automatically passed on to the next generation of Church leaders (non-Apostles). It is considered a special feature of the Apostolic Age, along with the other miraculous powers granted to the Apostles.

Regarding confession to priests vs. fellow believers, how about James 5:16 – “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” An “accountability partner” is not considered to be able to forgive someone’s sins himself, rather he prays to God that He would forgive them, according to James.

That the evangelical view, anyway. Lutherans and probably others do believe that the clergy has the power to forgive sins.
 
dacoobob said:
While Protestants might be induced to admit that the Apostles had the extraordinary power to forgive sins (granted them by the Lord Himself), we/they do not accept that this special ability was automatically passed on to the next generation of Church leaders (non-Apostles). It is considered a special feature of the Apostolic Age, along with the other miraculous powers granted to the Apostles.
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This is a very interesting idea, that these special abilities were not passed on beyond the Apostles.

Could you refer me to the passages in scripture which tell us this.

I just assumed that some of the powers were not passed on, like the ability to write scripture, but I thought that the powers which would help them maintain a living, spiritual society had been passed on from generation to generation.
I figured that if all of these powers had ceased, then the Church would cease, except as a quaint abstraction.

After all Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

This passage shows me that they were to go to all nations, which would take some time, and that Jesus promised to be with them forever, offering them His assistance.
 
dacoobob said:
While Protestants might be induced to admit that the Apostles had the extraordinary power to forgive sins (granted them by the Lord Himself), we/they do not accept that this special ability was automatically passed on to the next generation of Church leaders (non-Apostles). It is considered a special feature of the Apostolic Age, along with the other miraculous powers granted to the Apostles.

Regarding confession to priests vs. fellow believers, how about James 5:16 – “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” An “accountability partner” is not considered to be able to forgive someone’s sins himself, rather he prays to God that He would forgive them, according to James.

That the evangelical view, anyway. Lutherans and probably others do believe that the clergy has the power to forgive sins.
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The Apostles did not have the power to forgive sins. Only Christ can forgive sins. They are sent as The Father sent the Son. They are representative of Christ, persona Christi.
 
runandsew said:
This is a very interesting idea, that these special abilities were not passed on beyond the Apostles.

Could you refer me to the passages in scripture which tell us this.
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There is no such passage, just as there is no passage that explicitly affirms apostolic succession either. On this point, as on so many others, there are only rather ambiguous, indirect statements like the one you quoted, which can be interpreted in various ways by earnest people acting in good faith.

Of course, this is the whole problem with the doctrine of sola scriptura, as evidenced by 500 years of Protestant fragmentation and fractiousness. It’s one of the reasons I’m considering becoming a Catholic.
 
dacoobob said:
There is no such passage, just as there is no passage that explicitly affirms apostolic succession either. On this point, as on so many others, there are only rather ambiguous, indirect statements like the one you quoted, which can be interpreted in various ways by earnest people acting in good faith.

Of course, this is the whole problem with the doctrine of sola scriptura, as evidenced by 500 years of Protestant fragmentation and fractiousness. It’s one of the reasons I’m considering becoming a Catholic.
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Fair enough, this is where I look to the early church fathers to see what they might have believed and taught about these subjects.
Even if they might not have spoken about a subject for several hundred years, I feel that they are reflecting what was handed down to them.
So regarding priest forgiving sins, we can see Origen, Tertullian, Hippolytus and John Chrysostom all writing about confessing to priests, and the Didache mentioning confessing during church. And that is fine with me, I will accept their views on this subject as meaning that the authority of forgiving sins was passed on down beyond the Apostolic times.
When in doubt consult the fathers.

defending confession
 
runandsew said:
Fair enough, this is where I look to the early church fathers to see what they might have believed and taught about these subjects.
Even if they might not have spoken about a subject for several hundred years, I feel that they are reflecting what was handed down to them.
So regarding priest forgiving sins, we can see Origen, Tertullian, Hippolytus and John Chrysostom all writing about confessing to priests, and the Didache mentioning confessing during church. And that is fine with me, I will accept their views on this subject as meaning that the authority of forgiving sins was passed on down beyond the Apostolic times.
When in doubt consult the fathers.

defending confession
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You don’t mean that Ignatius might have something to say about what he learned from Peter at Antioch? Or Polycarp might have taught what he learned at the feet of the Apostle John?

What an amazing concept!
 
NotWorthy said:
You don’t mean that Ignatius might have something to say about what he learned from Peter at Antioch? Or Polycarp might have taught what he learned at the feet of the Apostle John?

What an amazing concept!
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Well, you know that some protestants believe that the Church fell away from the truth very quickly right after the Apostles, with all the beliefs of the pagan religions being blended into the pure gospel of Christ.

And what would these errors be?

Well the beliefs that the Catholics hold which go against what these protestants believe of course, because they still believe in the pure gospel of Christ.

So, even if the bible states that the power to forgive sins was given the the Apostles, and that the bible tells us that teachings and traditions were passed on down from Apostle to Bishop, and the early church fathers attest to it.
And even if the Apostleship of Judas was filled with a new Apostle after his death , (which in my opinion would have been a strange thing to do if the authority and power of the Apostles were all going to end with the death of the last Apostle ).

If this belief goes against their faith tradition, they can just write it off by claiming that It was not a part of early Christianity, or that it was a pagan belief blended into Christianity.
Remember " Its the Pure Gospel of Christ" .
Some protestants believe that they possess it and Catholics don’t, again, that is their faith tradition, and traditions run very deep and are extremely hard to overcome.
 
runandsew said:
And even if the Apostleship of Judas was filled with a new Apostle after his death , (which in my opinion would have been a strange thing to do if the authority and power of the Apostles were all going to end with the death of the last Apostle ).
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That’s a good point.
runandsew said:
Some protestants believe that they possess it and Catholics don’t, again, that is their faith tradition, and traditions run very deep and are extremely hard to overcome.
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Very true. Protestants have our own “Sacred Tradition” regarding interpretations/doctrines/etc (though almost nobody would think of it that way), which most accept implicitly.
 
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