Gospel of John and Confession

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Mike,

JonNC and TriunUnity are GREAT guys to be sure. Triune is in the military and is deployed right now for something like six months. Having him gone from the forum really stinks. I miss that guy a lot. He’s truly adept in Lutheran spirituality and the Bible in general. He can debate anyone and does it really charitably but while hammering a point more effectively than I can. I miss him like crazy.

It’s really great to have you on the forum. Welcome!

Peace to you po18guy. Here’s the deal with most Lutherans. We share more in common with the Roman church than most Roman Catholics would like to admit to or have a clue. Do we differ on things? Sure! Do we differ greatly? On some but not most. On Reformation Sunday, we had a Roman Catholic priest come in and give the homily. A few Sundays before, he came to my church and sat in on the liturgy. He looked at me and he said, “This isn’t much different than our liturgy.” He was so surprised. And I was like no kidding.

JonNC is a good guy on here pushing for unity. And he tends to be more on the calmer side. There is another guy on here from the WELS church I believe he is TriuneUnity or something like that. He’s pretty knowledgeable. I myself have probably had more exposure to Roman teaching than most of them, going to a Roman Catholic High School and being exposed to Roman theology. But I tend to be a bit more reactionary when it comes to “We’re the only true church” statements.

Good luck here and I look forward to seeing your posts.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Hi Mike,

JonNC and TriunUnity are GREAT guys to be sure. Triune is in the military and is deployed right now for something like six months. Having him gone from the forum really stinks. I miss that guy a lot. He’s truly adept in Lutheran spirituality and the Bible in general. He can debate anyone and does it really charitably but while hammering a point more effectively than I can. I miss him like crazy.

It’s really great to have you on the forum. Welcome!

Thanks Gurney. Sorry to hear that he deployed. Is he over in Iraq? It’s so stupid, it just needs to end. No one should be over there.

I look forward to more discussions. Poor Giants, but I’m sure as Martin Luther would say, this just goes to prove the inefficaciousness of intercessory prayer. But hey those Padres are looking good this season.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Agreed on Iraq. But don’t cast my Giants off just yet. Did you watch Timmy pitch a shut-out on the Mets last night? Pablo is finally showing signs of life, Huff is on fire, Sanchez is alright, Brian Wilson’s closing is superb, I think Dontrelle Willis is finally going to get it together in SF, his home bay area stomping ground. They’re going to work with him around my neck of the woods–AAA Fresno. He has control issues but I think they’ll iron out. Seeing him with Romo and Wilson and Affeldt, that’d be a great closing club there.

We have the best pitching tandem around: Lincecum, Cain, Zito, Sanchez, Bumgarner
We’ve won several in a row and are inching up on the evil Dodgers. Also, rumors of a trade are circulating. Maybe Corey Hart, some say Fielder (though I doubt it), Adam Dunn, etc.

Don’t get too impressed with the Padres. They have a history of owning the regular season until the late part of it when they turn to Jello Pudding and collapse. I’d be more impressed with the Colorado Rockies. That team is genuinely awesome. The Dodger, scum!

Thanks Gurney. Sorry to hear that he deployed. Is he over in Iraq? It’s so stupid, it just needs to end. No one should be over there.

I look forward to more discussions. Poor Giants, but I’m sure as Martin Luther would say, this just goes to prove the inefficaciousness of intercessory prayer. But hey those Padres are looking good this season.

 

[Soldier_X]

Agreed on Iraq. But don’t cast my Giants off just yet. Did you watch Timmy pitch a shut-out on the Mets last night? Pablo is finally showing signs of life, Huff is on fire, Sanchez is alright, Brian Wilson’s closing is superb, I think Dontrelle Willis is finally going to get it together in SF, his home bay area stomping ground. They’re going to work with him around my neck of the woods–AAA Fresno. He has control issues but I think they’ll iron out. Seeing him with Romo and Wilson and Affeldt, that’d be a great closing club there.

We have the best pitching tandem around: Lincecum, Cain, Zito, Sanchez, Bumgarner
We’ve won several in a row and are inching up on the evil Dodgers. Also, rumors of a trade are circulating. Maybe Corey Hart, some say Fielder (though I doubt it), Adam Dunn, etc.

Don’t get too impressed with the Padres. They have a history of owning the regular season until the late part of it when they turn to Jello Pudding and collapse. I’d be more impressed with the Colorado Rockies. That team is genuinely awesome. The Dodger, scum!

Dude…Lincecum was on fire last night. That was awesome!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeah. It’s so funny how all the haters were saying he’s going through a “slump” when he’s only lost a few games all season and not all of those were his fault. He’s still inhuman, man. And Ubaldo will eventually settle down to mediocrity when Timmy is still lighting it up, you watch.

Dude…Lincecum was on fire last night. That was awesome!

 

[jbelokur]

gurneyhalleck1,

Very interesting post. True–Anglicanism does deliberately lack Papal authority, though more so in some Anglican Churches than others. With your background, you would understand this far better than I.

Our Rector tells us we may choose to be a Papist; and he certainly holds a high regard for the Pope. I’m not sure how this works, exactly. I would think to choose to be a Papist would lead one into Catholicism. It’s a complicated issue.

Anna

I’m not quite sure how one could exist in the paradox of being a “papist” and not being Catholic at the same time. Like I have said elsewhere in this forum, how can something like that papacy be a matter of personal choice within one church? What else then is up for debate? And isn’t that what has led the Episcopal church in America where it is today? If truth is truth there can only be one version of it. Relativism and Christianity cannot exist in the same sentence.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m not quite sure how one could exist in the paradox of being a “papist” and not being Catholic at the same time. Like I have said elsewhere in this forum, how can something like that papacy be a matter of personal choice within one church? What else then is up for debate? And isn’t that what has led the Episcopal church in America where it is today? If truth is truth there can only be one version of it. Relativism and Christianity cannot exist in the same sentence.

Like I said, it’s complicated.

Anna

 

[jbelokur]

Like I said, it’s complicated.

Anna

Trust me, and I say this not boasting but as a point of identification to your position in your faith journey, I was born a protestant, and a seminary trained pastor in the Wesleyan theological tradition, I was planting a church (starting a new parish within my denominational affiliation just in case your not familiar with that terminology) that was essentially Catholic from the perspective of ones own eyes. We had a very Catholic like liturgy, Catholic like Christian formation (RCIAish), I wore a cassock for heavens sake! I began to realize though that what I was doing was only a shadow of the real thing. It is not something a man or woman can produce just because they want it to be so. Trust me I truly believed in the doctrine of transubstantiation, I new the words of consecration but still I only held bread, The true priesthood is a gift of God and from that gift flows salvation. I know what it is to be at home, but Christ tells us to leave our home, our fathers and mothers, sisters and brothers for His sake. And, please trust me that I know your intentions are real and your passion for Christ authentic. Above all, seek Christ sister!

 

[peeteyg]

It says in scripture that people came to John the Baptist confessing their sins. This is a consistent typology to the OT where sin had to be confessed before a sin offering. I was reading the church fathers the other day and they said we had to confess our sins out loud. This is because angels and demons and Satan stand as witnesses to our sin and subsequent confession. Satan is an accuser of mankind before god. This is a profound thought and makes confesssion to a valid priest easy. One can also look at Isaiah 22 to see the typology used here as it relates to the Binding and Loosing authority given to Cephas and the apostles. This is why jesus gave keys to Cephas\Peter. It is worth reading these passages to understand fully jesus’ selection of a visible successor.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Trust me, and I say this not boasting but as a point of identification to your position in your faith journey, I was born a protestant, and a seminary trained pastor in the Wesleyan theological tradition, I was planting a church (starting a new parish within my denominational affiliation just in case your not familiar with that terminology) that was essentially Catholic from the perspective of ones own eyes. We had a very Catholic like liturgy, Catholic like Christian formation (RCIAish), I wore a cassock for heavens sake! I began to realize though that what I was doing was only a shadow of the real thing. It is not something a man or woman can produce just because they want it to be so. Trust me I truly believed in the doctrine of transubstantiation, I new the words of consecration but still I only held bread, The true priesthood is a gift of God and from that gift flows salvation. I know what it is to be at home, but Christ tells us to leave our home, our fathers and mothers, sisters and brothers for His sake. And, please trust me that I know your intentions are real and your passion for Christ authentic. Above all, seek Christ sister!

jbeloku,

I do understand your viewpoint. Many Catholic friends are urging me toward Catholicism. But, that is still a decision that only I can make.

A very good friend, who is Catholic, gave me 3 books by Scott Hahn: The Lamb’s Supper, Swear to God, and Rome Sweet Home. I read them and am grateful to have them. I keep referring back to them. It took 5 years for both Scott and his wife to come into the Catholic Church. They studied diligently.

At this point in my life, I am one of those people who needs to study diligently. As I’ve said before, it’s kinda like the problems of have with my night vision. “I can only drive as fast as I can see.”

I appreciate the testament of your journey and your kind words of encouragement.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .I was reading the church fathers the other day and they said we had to confess our sins out loud. This is because angels and demons and Satan stand as witnesses to our sin and subsequent confession. Satan is an accuser of mankind before god. . . . . .

peeteyg,

This may sound like a strange question, but do you believe Satan, angels, and demons can read our thoughts, or is it only our spoken words that they hear?

Anna

 

[jbelokur]

jbeloku,

I do understand your viewpoint. Many Catholic friends are urging me toward Catholicism. But, that is still a decision that only I can make.

A very good friend, who is Catholic, gave me 3 books by Scott Hahn: The Lamb’s Supper, Swear to God, and Rome Sweet Home. I read them and am grateful to have them. I keep referring back to them. It took 5 years for both Scott and his wife to come into the Catholic Church. They studied diligently.

At this point in my life, I am one of those people who needs to study diligently. As I’ve said before, it’s kinda like the problems of have with my night vision. “I can only drive as fast as I can see.”

I appreciate the testament of your journey and your kind words of encouragement.

Anna

The key to my conversion to the Catholic Church was that of authority, if the Catholic Church does indeed have the authority she says she does, and I mentally and spiritually assent to that, than understanding other areas of the Catholic faith in not a stumbling block any further. For if I can trust the Church I can trust what she teaches. This does not mean that I don’t have an obligation to understand what the Church teaches, but it does mean that not understanding certain doctrines is no longer a valid reason for me not to be in full communion any more.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The key to my conversion to the Catholic Church was that of authority, if the Catholic Church does indeed have the authority she says she does, and I mentally and spiritually assent to that, than understanding other areas of the Catholic faith in not a stumbling block any further. For if I can trust the Church I can trust what she teaches. This does not mean that I don’t have an obligation to understand what the Church teaches, but it does mean that not understanding certain doctrines is no longer a valid reason for me not to be in full communion any more.

I can respect that point of view.

Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t think it’s as simple as that. Basically look at Matthew 16:18 through the Catholic lens and the rest of the many, many theological issues are just matters of obedience without spiritual understanding or assent on the part of the believer? I think a person must believe more than Matt. 16:18 to become Catholic. The whole package needs to make sense, not just one verse that knocks the others over like dominoes. Questioning is part of the process or else we’d all just be cult members. Cults operate like that. They take a personality, wrap all the theological trust around one guy, then question nothing from there on out. And the result is people not questioning, understanding, or using their heads anymore. I’m in the same shoes as Anna right now. And I understand her caution and need to understand, question, and make sure this is right for her. ‘Because the pope said so’ is not enough for many seekers at this point I’m afraid.

The key to my conversion to the Catholic Church was that of authority, if the Catholic Church does indeed have the authority she says she does, and I mentally and spiritually assent to that, than understanding other areas of the Catholic faith in not a stumbling block any further. For if I can trust the Church I can trust what she teaches. This does not mean that I don’t have an obligation to understand what the Church teaches, but it does mean that not understanding certain doctrines is no longer a valid reason for me not to be in full communion any more.

 

[jbelokur]

I don’t think it’s as simple as that. Basically look at Matthew 16:18 through the Catholic lens and the rest of the many, many theological issues are just matters of obedience without spiritual understanding or assent on the part of the believer? I think a person must believe more than Matt. 16:18 to become Catholic. The whole package needs to make sense, not just one verse that knocks the others over like dominoes. Questioning is part of the process or else we’d all just be cult members. Cults operate like that. They take a personality, wrap all the theological trust around one guy, then question nothing from there on out. And the result is people not questioning, understanding, or using their heads anymore. I’m in the same shoes as Anna right now. And I understand her caution and need to understand, question, and make sure this is right for her. ‘Because the pope said so’ is not enough for many seekers at this point I’m afraid.

You only assume that I was speaking of the pope when I was speaking of authority. The concept of the authority of the Church while it includes the Holy father, goes beyond that to include the entire magisterium as well, and the Tradition and Scriptural backing of the authority of the Church as Christ’s body can be clearly seen. You need to read my last post and note that I did not say it is just blind faith forever, but that not having a full understanding of all the doctrines of the Church is not a stumbling block to full communion. Once one is Catholic you have a life time to seek a fuller understanding of the length, width and amazing depth of the Church.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The key to my conversion to the Catholic Church was that of authority, if the Catholic Church does indeed have the authority she says she does, and I mentally and spiritually assent to that, than understanding other areas of the Catholic faith in not a stumbling block any further. For if I can trust the Church I can trust what she teaches. This does not mean that I don’t have an obligation to understand what the Church teaches, but it does mean that not understanding certain doctrines is no longer a valid reason for me not to be in full communion any more.

You only assume that I was speaking of the pope when I was speaking of authority. The concept of the authority of the Church while it includes the Holy father, goes beyond that to include the entire magisterium as well, and the Tradition and Scriptural backing of the authority of the Church as Christ’s body can be clearly seen. You need to read my last post and note that I did not say it is just blind faith forever, but that not having a full understanding of all the doctrines of the Church is not a stumbling block to full communion. Once one is Catholic you have a life time to seek a fuller understanding of the length, width and amazing depth of the Church.

If you look back through history, do you see times when Catholics followed their Popes into very fallible actions and very fallible beliefs?

How far would you follow the Pope today? These are important questions, when I consider Catholicism.

Anna

P.S.
This is a quote from a Catholic on Gurney’s Thread, To which Atonement theory do you subscribe?

I don’t think Catholics are allowed to agree with penal substitution. I’m quite sure it is a protestant thing. Well, some say St. Anslem proposed this, but it is mostly believed by protestants (Luther adopted it). It fits well with protestantism.

When I hear a Catholic say, “I don’t think Catholics are allowed to agree with. . . . .” that sends up red flags for me. I can’t embrace such a mindset. I don’t want my agreement or disagreement with an idea or doctrine to be dictated to me—to the point that I’m not certain of how I’m “allowed” to answer a question.

 

[jbelokur]

If you look back through history, do you see times when Catholics followed their Popes into very fallible actions and very fallible beliefs?

How far would you follow the Pope today? These are important questions, when I consider Catholicism.

Anna

P.S.
This is a quote from a Catholic on Gurney’s Thread, To which Atonement theory do you subscribe?

When I hear a Catholic say, “I don’t think Catholics are allowed to agree with. . . . .” that sends up red flags for me. I can’t embrace such a mindset. I don’t want my agreement or disagreement with an idea or doctrine to be dictated to me—to the point that I’m not certain of how I’m “allowed” to answer a question.

Catholics aren’t allowed to believe that Christ was not God, they are not allowed to believe that The OT no longer has meaning,they are not allowed to reciece our Lord in Holy Communion while in a state of mortal sin, they aren’t allowed to believe that Joesph Smiths revelations are true…etc. I’m guessing that you have no problem with the Catholic Church asserting these types of faith obligations on their faithful. It is only in those areas that you personally have difficulty that you take offense. Is this an honest assessment? To be Catholic means something. It is holy other than many of the protestant sects that differ markedly from one parish to the next, where you can choose what you will and wont believe, to be Catholic means that you submit yourself wholly to Christ and His Church not as a mindless automaton but rather as one who is convinced of the truth and through faith acts in obedience. Christ Himself said if you love me keep my commandments.

 

[peeteyg]

No, demons and angels and Satan cannot read our minds. I don’t remember which church father talked about this, I think it was one of the Ante-Nicene ECF. I believe in the seen and unseen as said in the creed. We also have guardian angels. I prefer and scriptures say to confess your sins out loud. This is necessary for sins to be forgiven. Many protestants say it is between you and god. I say that there is plenty of evidence of sins confessed out loud.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

How would one of the Fathers know if Satan or demons could read our minds or not? Just because a Father makes such a supposition, why would it then be considered fact?

No, demons and angels and Satan cannot read our minds. I don’t remember which church father talked about this, I think it was one of the Ante-Nicene ECF. I believe in the seen and unseen as said in the creed. We also have guardian angels. I prefer and scriptures say to confess your sins out loud. This is necessary for sins to be forgiven. Many protestants say it is between you and god. I say that there is plenty of evidence of sins confessed out loud.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Catholics aren’t allowed to believe that Christ was not God, they are not allowed to believe that The OT no longer has meaning,they are not allowed to reciece our Lord in Holy Communion while in a state of mortal sin, they aren’t allowed to believe that Joesph Smiths revelations are true…etc. I’m guessing that you have no problem with the Catholic Church asserting these types of faith obligations on their faithful. It is only in those areas that you personally have difficulty that you take offense. Is this an honest assessment? To be Catholic means something. It is holy other than many of the protestant sects that differ markedly from one parish to the next, where you can choose what you will and wont believe, to be Catholic means that you submit yourself wholly to Christ and His Church not as a mindless automaton but rather as one who is convinced of the truth and through faith acts in obedience. Christ Himself said if you love me keep my commandments.

jbelokur,

I respect your point of view. But you didn’t answer my questions.

If you look back through history, do you see times when Catholics followed their Popes into very fallible actions and very fallible beliefs?

How far would you follow the Pope today?

I’m not asking to be argumentative. I’m ask as one investing the Catholic faith.

Anna