Gospel of John

[t68ware]

Hey all. I am hoping someone can help me think through this. It states in the Gospel of John when Jesus was baptised, John the Baptist says he would not have know who Jesus was (the Messiah) until the dove lighted upon Him. But if you read the Synoptics, when Jesus presented Himself for baptism, John tried to dissuade Him, so John knew who He was before He was baptised. So a casual reading of the two accounts, one says John had no idea who Jesus was until after He was baptised and the other account shows John knew who Jesus was before He was baptised. Thoughts?

 

[banjo]

Hey all. I am hoping someone can help me think through this. It states in the Gospel of John when Jesus was baptised, John the Baptist says he would not have know who Jesus was (the Messiah) until the dove lighted upon Him. But if you read the Synoptics, when Jesus presented Himself for baptism, John tried to dissuade Him, so John knew who He was before He was baptised. So a casual reading of the two accounts, one says John had no idea who Jesus was until after He was baptised and the other account shows John knew who Jesus was before He was baptised. Thoughts?

The Navarre Bible offers the following commentary on this…“By saying what he says in v. 31, the Precursor does not mean to deny his personal knowledge of Jesus (cf. Lk 1:36 and Mt 3:14), but to make it plain that God revealed to him the moment when he should publicly proclaim Jesus as Messiah and Son of God, and that he also understood that his own mission as precursor had no other purpose than to bear witness to Jesus Christ.”

 

[Angelos]

According to the account in Luke, John the Baptist first encountered Jesus when Panaghia Mary went to visit her cousin Elisabeth. Since Luke relates Jesus’ nativity and infancy narrative in the light of His baptism (John prepares the way for the Lord through his miraculous birth), we do not see John meet Jesus on the occasion of Jesus’ baptism. John’s testimony and mission are presented in the account of Mary’s visitation.

Matthew, on the other hand, first talks of John the Baptist and His first encounter with the Lord on the occasion of Jesus’ baptism. The account in Matthew implies that John the baptist recognises Jesus prior to baptising Him, probably through his prophetic mission and by the work of the Holy Spirit.

John is the only Evangelist to narrate Jesus’ dialogue with His precursor AFTER His baptism. In other words, only in John’s Gospel is John’s testimony presented three times as occurring after Jesus’ baptism and before the baptist’s arrest and imprisonment.

Another significant element in John’s narrative is that Jesus’ precursor directs his disciples to Jesus, who leave the Baptist to follow Jesus. At this point, the evangelist underscores the similarity between John the Baptist and Jesus’ disciples with regard to seeing signs and beleiving in Jesus. Although some of Jesus’ disciples know Jesus and believe in Him on the day they meet Him the first time, they fully and officially acknowledge His power and mission when Jesus performs His first SIGN:

John 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

More, Jesus’ disciples mostly see His signs, believe Him, and finally give testimony to Jesus. John the Baptist does the same thing: he officially knows Jesus and becomes a witness after seeing a SIGN:

John 1:32-34
And John gave** testimony**, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven; and he remained upon him. And I knew him not: but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw: and I gave testimony that this is the Son of God.

John 12:16
These things his disciples did not know at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of him and that they had done these things to him.

John 12:41
These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

John 19:34-35
But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side: and immediately there came out blood and water. And he that saw it hath given testimony: and his testimony is true.

John 20.8
Then that other disciple also went in, who came first to the sepulchre: and he saw and believed.

 

[t68ware]

According to the account in Luke, John the Baptist first encountered Jesus when Panaghia Mary went to visit her cousin Elisabeth. Since Luke relates Jesus’ nativity and infancy narrative in the light of His baptism (John prepares the way for the Lord through his miraculous birth), we do not see John meet Jesus on the occasion of Jesus’ baptism. John’s testimony and mission are presented in the account of Mary’s visitation.

Matthew, on the other hand, first talks of John the Baptist and His first encounter with the Lord on the occasion of Jesus’ baptism. The account in Matthew implies that John the baptist recognises Jesus prior to baptising Him, probably through his prophetic mission and by the work of the Holy Spirit.

John is the only Evangelist to narrate Jesus’ dialogue with His precursor AFTER His baptism. In other words, only in John’s Gospel is John’s testimony presented three times as occurring after Jesus’ baptism and before the baptist’s arrest and imprisonment.

Another significant element in John’s narrative is that Jesus’ precursor directs his disciples to Jesus, who leave the Baptist to follow Jesus. At this point, the evangelist underscores the similarity between John the Baptist and Jesus’ disciples with regard to seeing signs and beleiving in Jesus. Although some of Jesus’ disciples know Jesus and believe in Him on the day they meet Him the first time, they fully and officially acknowledge His power and mission when Jesus performs His first SIGN:

John 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

More, Jesus’ disciples mostly see His signs, believe Him, and finally give testimony to Jesus. John the Baptist does the same thing: he officially knows Jesus and becomes a witness after seeing a SIGN:

John 1:32-34
And John gave** testimony**, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven; and he remained upon him. And I knew him not: but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw: and I gave testimony that this is the Son of God.

John 12:16
These things his disciples did not know at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of him and that they had done these things to him.

John 12:41
These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

John 19:34-35
But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side: and immediately there came out blood and water. And he that saw it hath given testimony: and his testimony is true.

John 20.8
Then that other disciple also went in, who came first to the sepulchre: and he saw and believed.

I understand what you are saying, but I guess the question still remains how John’s Gospel says John did not know Jesus without the sign and Matthew did without the sign. I would find it hard to understand how Matthew would know of this conversation between John and Jesus and John would be totally ignorant of it, since John was the disciple who was closest to Jesus.

 

[Angelos]

I understand what you are saying, but I guess the question still remains how John’s Gospel says John did not know Jesus without the sign and Matthew did without the sign. I would find it hard to understand how Matthew would know of this conversation between John and Jesus and John would be totally ignorant of it, since John was the disciple who was closest to Jesus.

The question still remains because John uses a completely different plot for his Gospel and employs various literary techniques. We can also ask why Jesus goes to Jerusalem several times on different occasions only in John’s Gospel. We can also ask why John’s Gospel does not have the account of the eucharistic institution. We can also want to know why only John’s Gospel relates the three occasions Jesus appears to His disciples after His resurrection.

In Matthew, John the Baptist knows Jesus BEFORE baptising Him since the dialogue occurring between Jesus and His precursor AFTER the baptism is not given in the text.

In Luke, John the Baptist is implied to have been cast into jail even BEFORE Christ is baptised! Why? Because Jesus’ first encounter with the Baptist is said to have taken place BEFORE Jesus’ birth!

In John’s Gospel, the Baptist’s testimony is given AFTER Jesus’ baptism. More to the point, John the Evangelist aims to underline the fact that the Baptist’s mission was only to reveal the Christ to Israel. This is why John’s Gospel, unlike the other three Gospels, never says that John preached a baptism of repentance:

John 1:31
And I knew him not: but that he may be made manifest in Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.