Gospel Of John

[ALISANDRO]

Actually we do know. Passover lasted an entire week. It began on what we would call Palm Sunday and ended that Saturday. That’s why there was such a large crowd of Jews in Jerusalem that week. It was Passover Week.

We have to remember that John’s Gospel was not intended to be a historical presentation of Jesus. John’s intent is to show that Jesus is the promised Messiah by offering proofs. John organizes his material according to his theme. That’s why John’s Gospel does ot fit the Synoptics. It has two very interesting things happening simultaneously. First, there is John’s attempt to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. Second, (not intended) is John’s mystical understanding of Jesus.

Unlike the other writers, John is a mystic. He presents us a theological Jesus. He’s not itnerested in the historical fact as much as he is interested in the significance of Jesus in salvation history. What was the significance of Jesus? His Messiahship.

This does not mean that John is historically wrong. Not at all. What it means is that John only uses those points of history that prove the Messiahship of Christ. Anything else about Christ, John leaves out, because by the time that he writes his Gospel, everything that can be said about Christ’s life has been said by the Synoptic writers. He’s not interested in repeating the same story.

The day of preparation would be accurate as well as Passover Day. Because in ancient Judaism, the celebration was always at the Seder, which took place at the evening meel. From John’s perspective, Jesus dies before the Passover.

He deliberately does this to point out to the fact that Jesus is truly a faithful Jew. He does the work of salvation without violating the Jewish law. He dies before the evening arrives
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Hi Brother JR. OSF., I don’t know off-hand the location (one of the Gospels ) where it says that when our Lord dismissed His spirit there was darkness over the whole land for the space of three hours. It would not have been a significant statement to make if our Saviour had died after sunset, so your statement above is borne out, Christ did die before the evening arrived. Another point that I am sure that you could clarify for me :- the first Passover was celebrated in Egypt on the eve of the end of the 400yrs captivity, yes? Did God instruct the Children of Israel at that time to keep celebrating that Passover throughout their generations on that same day, the 14th of Abib, (April) ? If so, what day of the week did 14th April fall on in the year of our Lord’s crucifiction. If it was Thursday, it would certainly end the controversy in some quarters where it is said that Christ was not in the tomb for three days and three nights. Because the Jews reckoned any part of a day as a whole day, it would then follow that our Lord was crucified on Friday morning, died on the cross about the third hour of the day, was in the tomb for the rest of Friday, all of the Sabbath and rose on the third day which was Sunday, is all of that correct Brother?

Christian regards, ALISANDRO.

 

[chosen_people]

Passover was one day. The 14th of Nisan. This is attested in numerous places in the Bible. The Feast of Unleavened Bread lasted 8 days (likewise the Feast of Pentecost and Tabernacles). The two originally distinct feasts became conflated and were celebrated together. Passover, still is just one day. Check any Jewish calendar.

Passover or Pesach is celebrated 7 days in Israel and 8 days in the diaspora. The first day of passover is the 15th of Nissan. The passover seder is celebrated on the first night of passover (the seder is celebrated for the first two nights in the diaspora so that all Jews in the world will be celebrating the seder together). The new day begins after sundown.

Among the 25 major discrepancies in the resurrection accounts is also the day on which Yeshua was crucified. John asserts that Yeshua was crucified on the day before passover (the 14 of Nissan), the day the “pascal lamb” was slaughtered (John 13:1,29, 18:28, 19:14). According to the other three gospels (Mark14:17-25, Luke 22:14-23 and Mathew 26:20-30) Jesus was crucified on the 15th of Nissan and the “last supper” was the passover seder.

 

[inkaneer]

The tradition that Jesus died during Passover week dates back to the first century Church. It is a tradition that is believed by all of the Apostolic Churches. However, the Roman Church is the only Catholic Church that does reconcile its calendar with the Eastern calendar. That’s why we’re the only Catholics who do not celebrate Easter during Passover week. All other Catholics and Orthodox celebrate it during Passover week. The Eastern Churches inherited this from the apostles who founded them. The Roman Church acknowledges that it was during Passover week.

We do not celebrate it during the week of Passover, because the Western calendar was adjusted several times throwing off the liturgical year. That’s why your Ukrainian Catholic friends celebrate Easter during Passover and the Great Lent, as they call it, is different from our Roman Lent. In some Eastern Catholic Churches the liturgical calendar follows the Jewish calendar where the new year begins at Rosh Hashanah. Roman Catholics count the days to Easter from January 1. Eastern Catholics count the days to Pasch from Rosh Hashanah. Most Eastern Catholics simply follow the Jewish calendar, because they consider it the more orthodox thing to do. That’s a small “o” on orthodox, though the Orthodox Christians follow the same liturgical calendar as the Eastern Catholics. The Roman Catholics are the only ones who are out of synch.

As to the number of days, Jesus did die on Friday, not Thursday. In the old Jewish calendar the ordinal numbers were the same as cardinal numbers. The first day meant day one. Jesus rises on the third day if you use the Jewish method of counting days: Friday, Saturday and Sunday. If you’re a religious or an older Catholic you may remember that there was a time when the Catholic Church used the Jewish clock to pray the Divine Office. We called the hours tierce, sext, none. Tierce was the third hour of the day, but it was not 3:00 am. You had Matins at midnight, lauds at sunrise, then terce or the third hour after sunrise, which could be about 9:00 am. We use ordinal and cardinal numbers. Day one is not the same as the first day. If I’m 35 years old, then I’m in my 36th year. You see the difference between our system and their system?

When the scriptures say that Jesus died at a specific hour, they’re not using our clock. They’re counting the hours from sunrise. It is more than likely that Jesus died about noon, because they had to find a burial place. To do all the running around that they did to get the Pontius Pilate to give them the body, go back and get the body, burry him and get home before sunset, would take a little time. They could not just walk in on Pontius Pilate. As you get closer to the equator the sunset gets earlier. At the equator sunset and sunrise are at approximately 6 and 6. It does not change throughout the year as it does in the southern and northern hemispheres.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Wasn’t the date for Easter set at the Council of Nicea so that the Eastern Churches would conform to the practice of Rome? Wasn’t Easter set for the first Sunday after the first new moon after the spring equinox? I never heard of counting the days from Jan 1. If that were the case then Easter would fall on the same date every year and it doesn’t. The reason the Eastern Churches celbrate Easter on a different Sunday is that they use the older Julian calendar while the West uses the more accurate Gregorian calendar.

 

[diggerdomer]

Passover or Pesach is celebrated 7 days in Israel and 8 days in the diaspora. The first day of passover is the 15th of Nissan. The passover seder is celebrated on the first night of passover (the seder is celebrated for the first two nights in the diaspora so that all Jews in the world will be celebrating the seder together). The new day begins after sundown.

Among the 25 major discrepancies in the resurrection accounts is also the day on which Yeshua was crucified. John asserts that Yeshua was crucified on the day before passover (the 14 of Nissan), the day the “pascal lamb” was slaughtered (John 13:1,29, 18:28, 19:14). According to the other three gospels (Mark14:17-25, Luke 22:14-23 and Mathew 26:20-30) Jesus was crucified on the 15th of Nissan and the “last supper” was the passover seder.

Right. I was confused in my post…sorry. My point is what you said in the latter part…the Gospels present two clearly different days of the crucifixion.

 

[diggerdomer]

Wasn’t the date for Easter set at the Council of Nicea so that the Eastern Churches would conform to the practice of Rome? Wasn’t Easter set for the first Sunday after the first new moon after the spring equinox? I never heard of counting the days from Jan 1. If that were the case then Easter would fall on the same date every year and it doesn’t. The reason the Eastern Churches celbrate Easter on a different Sunday is that they use the older Julian calendar while the West uses the more accurate Gregorian calendar.

Yes, that’s adequately accurate.

 

[panevino]

thought I’d add this for what its worth.

1 cor 5:7 KJV - Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:…

 

[JReducation]

Wasn’t the date for Easter set at the Council of Nicea so that the Eastern Churches would conform to the practice of Rome? Wasn’t Easter set for the first Sunday after the first new moon after the spring equinox? I never heard of counting the days from Jan 1. If that were the case then Easter would fall on the same date every year and it doesn’t. The reason the Eastern Churches celbrate Easter on a different Sunday is that they use the older Julian calendar while the West uses the more accurate Gregorian calendar.

Easter is the first Sunday after the first new moon following the spring equinox. Where January 1st enters the picture is in determining when the spiring equinox happens. In our calendar we have locked it into March 22, which is not actually accurate. But they had to put the beginning of spring there in order to divide the year into four equal parts (more or less).

The celebration of Easter was established at the Council of Nicea, but it was rejected by the Eastern Catholic Churches. They continued to follow the Jewish calendar. That’s why Easter always coincides with Passover. That’s one of the points of orthodoxy and one of several points that led those who separated from the Eastern Churches to call themselves Orthodox Christians. The Eastern Christians, Orthodox and Catholics, refused to follow many of the liturgical changes that were introduced by the Roman Church. They still refuse to do so, even though they are in full communion with Rome.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Hi Brother JR. OSF., I don’t know off-hand the location (one of the Gospels ) where it says that when our Lord dismissed His spirit there was darkness over the whole land for the space of three hours. It would not have been a significant statement to make if our Saviour had died after sunset, so your statement above is borne out, Christ did die before the evening arrived. Another point that I am sure that you could clarify for me :- the first Passover was celebrated in Egypt on the eve of the end of the 400yrs captivity, yes? Did God instruct the Children of Israel at that time to keep celebrating that Passover throughout their generations on that same day, the 14th of Abib, (April) ? If so, what day of the week did 14th April fall on in the year of our Lord’s crucifiction. If it was Thursday, it would certainly end the controversy in some quarters where it is said that Christ was not in the tomb for three days and three nights. Because the Jews reckoned any part of a day as a whole day, it would then follow that our Lord was crucified on Friday morning, died on the cross about the third hour of the day, was in the tomb for the rest of Friday, all of the Sabbath and rose on the third day which was Sunday, is all of that correct Brother?

Christian regards, ALISANDRO.

Chosen People answers most of your questions about the date. As to the three days and nights in the tomb, the problem is that modern day Christians, especially Catholics, seem to enjoy debating nonsense. I was born and raised a Jew. Our anscestors did not count days as the gentiles do. They counted a day up to sunset. There were nor ordinal numbers. Therefore, there was no difference between day one and the first day. It meant the same thing, which is not the case in the gentile world. In the gentile world, a day is complete when you have completed a 24 hour cylce. In the Hebrew world a day is the actual day. Friday would be day one, Saturday would be day two and Sunday would be day three. Since Jesus died before sunset on Friday we count Friday as day one, even though there were only a few hours left to the day. That’s how we get the three days.

For a great example, look at the story of creation. It says on the first day, the Lord said. If you count the days they were not measured in 24 hour periods.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[diggerdomer]

Easter is the first Sunday after the first new moon following the spring equinox. Where January 1st enters the picture is in determining when the spiring equinox happens. In our calendar we have locked it into March 22, which is not actually accurate. But they had to put the beginning of spring there in order to divide the year into four equal parts (more or less).

The celebration of Easter was established at the Council of Nicea, but it was rejected by the Eastern Catholic Churches. They continued to follow the Jewish calendar. That’s why Easter always coincides with Passover. That’s one of the points of orthodoxy and one of several points that led those who separated from the Eastern Churches to call themselves Orthodox Christians. The Eastern Christians, Orthodox and Catholics, refused to follow many of the liturgical changes that were introduced by the Roman Church. They still refuse to do so, even though they are in full communion with Rome.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

It is not rejected by the Eastern Catholic Churches, it’s different for the Orthodox Churches. January 1 is not relevant, the equinox is.Eastern Catholics observe Easter as with all Catholics. Orthodox observe different dates for a few complex reasons as has been mentioned.

 

[ALISANDRO]

Chosen People answers most of your questions about the date. As to the three days and nights in the tomb, the problem is that modern day Christians, especially Catholics, seem to enjoy debating nonsense. I was born and raised a Jew. Our anscestors did not count days as the gentiles do. **They counted a day up to sunset. ** There were nor ordinal numbers. Therefore, there was no difference between day one and the first day. It meant the same thing, which is not the case in the gentile world. In the gentile world, a day is complete when you have completed a 24 hour cylce. In the Hebrew world a day is the actual day. Friday would be day one, Saturday would be day two and Sunday would be day three. Since Jesus died before sunset on Friday we count Friday as day one, even though there were only a few hours left to the day. That’s how we get the three days.

For a great example, look at the story of creation. It says on the first day, the Lord said. If you count the days they were not measured in 24 hour periods.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

.
Thank you Brother,J.R. OSF. for your speedy response to my post. I have highlighted the sentence in your post that confirms what I said in my post, i.e. your anscestors counted a day up to sunset. In my post I said, “The Jews counted any part of a day as a whole day”, which was meant to say the same thing. However, your explaination is clearer, thank you.
Interesting that you should have been born and raised a Jew, because I know of at least two pastors in the SDA Church that have the same heritage, Pr. Doug Bachelor, and Pr.Steve Wohlberg. However, because they are Sola Scriptura adherents (like Luther, Wycliffe et al) they are apparently, persona no gratis to Catholics, am I correct?
Anyway, thanks again for the prompt response and for my part I shall endeavour not to debate nonesense in future. By the way, it is said of Winston Churchill that he did not suffer fools gladly. Christian regards, ALISANDRO.

 

[chosen_people]

Chosen People answers most of your questions about the date. As to the three days and nights in the tomb, the problem is that modern day Christians, especially Catholics, seem to enjoy debating nonsense. I was born and raised a Jew. Our anscestors did not count days as the gentiles do. They counted a day up to sunset. There were nor ordinal numbers. Therefore, there was no difference between day one and the first day. It meant the same thing, which is not the case in the gentile world. In the gentile world, a day is complete when you have completed a 24 hour cylce. In the Hebrew world a day is the actual day. Friday would be day one, Saturday would be day two and Sunday would be day three. Since Jesus died before sunset on Friday we count Friday as day one, even though there were only a few hours left to the day. That’s how we get the three days.

For a great example, look at the story of creation. It says on the first day, the Lord said. If you count the days they were not measured in 24 hour periods.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The problem is not with the three days but with the three nights (see Mathew 12:38-40). Yeshua is said to have died Friday afternoon before sundown (Luke 23:54-55,Luke 28:1). Yeshua was supposedly resurrected on Sunday morning around dawn (Mathew 28:1;John 20:1). Therefore Yeshua was not in the ground for three days and three nights as he prophesied but for three days and two nights. The Jewish calendar does not solve this problem.

 

[inkaneer]

Easter is the first Sunday after the first new moon following the spring equinox. Where January 1st enters the picture is in determining when the spiring equinox happens. In our calendar we have locked it into March 22, which is not actually accurate. But they had to put the beginning of spring there in order to divide the year into four equal parts (more or less).

The celebration of Easter was established at the Council of Nicea, but it was rejected by the Eastern Catholic Churches. They continued to follow the Jewish calendar. That’s why Easter always coincides with Passover. That’s one of the points of orthodoxy and one of several points that led those who separated from the Eastern Churches to call themselves Orthodox Christians. The Eastern Christians, Orthodox and Catholics, refused to follow many of the liturgical changes that were introduced by the Roman Church. They still refuse to do so, even though they are in full communion with Rome.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I am sorry but the spring equinox is not measured from January 1st. Rather it is based on an astronomical event. The word equinox means that both day and night are the same length of time in both northern and southern hemispheres of the earth. That is determined by the tilt of the earth’s axis. In winter [northern hemisphere] the northern hemishere is tilted away from the sun and gets less light so the days are shorter meanwhile the southern hemisphere is tilted toward the sun and so gets more sunlight and the days are longer. It is the exact opposite in the summer . The earth reaches is furthest tilt on or about Dec. 22 and June 22 which known as the winter and summer solstice and on or about March 22 and Sep 22 both hemispheres receive an equal amont of light. These are known as the vernal and autumnal equinox.
Regarding Easter, the Orthodox follow the Julian calendar not the Jewish callendar. Also the Eastern Churches did not reject the decision of the Council of Nicea on anything. That Council set the celebration of the Resurrection to be on a Sunday [the first Sunday following the first new moon after the Spring equinox] and not any day of the week as the Jewish Passover could be. The difference between the Eastern Church and the Western Church celebrations is in the use of the old Julian calendar in the East and not the more accurate Gregorian calendar.

 

[JReducation]

The problem is not with the three days but with the three nights (see Mathew 12:38-40). Yeshua is said to have died Friday afternoon before sundown (Luke 23:54-55,Luke 28:1). Yeshua was supposedly resurrected on Sunday morning around dawn (Mathew 28:1;John 20:1). Therefore Yeshua was not in the ground for three days and three nights as he prophesied but for three days and two nights. The Jewish calendar does not solve this problem.

The prophesy was not three days and nights, just three days. Jesus repeated it again himself. He spoke of rising on the third day. That’s who the Jewish calendar helps. Because the night was not part of the promise.

As to whether he rose at dawn is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. The reason for this is the fact that the Gospels speak about the women going to the tomb. It is unlikely that they would go at dawn. It would still be dark enough to be very dangerous.

Many scholars believe that the use of the word dawn is not about the time of day, but about the event itself. Jesus Christ brings light to the world. His rising is in itself the dawn of which the writers speak. We get this from the fact that the Synoptic Gospels do not coincide in the details of the resurrection. This makes them more credible.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ALISANDRO]

The problem is not with the three days but with the three nights (see Mathew 12:38-40). Yeshua is said to have died Friday afternoon before sundown (Luke 23:54-55,Luke 28:1). Yeshua was supposedly resurrected on Sunday morning around dawn (Mathew 28:1;John 20:1). Therefore Yeshua was not in the ground for three days and three nights as he prophesied but for three days and two nights. The Jewish calendar does not solve this problem.

.
Hello chosen people, can you answer the question that I asked of Br. JR. OSF, i.e.:-

Did the Lord instruct the Children of Israel to celebrate the Passover on that same day throughout their generations, i.e.:-the fourteenth day of the first month?
Regards, ALISANDRO.

 

[coolduude]

The problem is not with the three days but with the three nights (see Mathew 12:38-40). Yeshua is said to have died Friday afternoon before sundown (Luke 23:54-55,Luke 28:1). Yeshua was supposedly resurrected on Sunday morning around dawn (Mathew 28:1;John 20:1). Therefore Yeshua was not in the ground for three days and three nights as he prophesied but for three days and two nights. The Jewish calendar does not solve this problem.

This is the text of Matthew 12:28-40:

In His teaching He was saying: "Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places,

39and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets,

40who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation."

I see nothing in there about three nights, like you claim. So if you could make that connection for me, that’d be great.

This is Christ’s prophecy (which you’re trying to debunk):

12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.

13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!”

17His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”[a]

18Then the Jews demanded of him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

(John 2:12-22)

As you can see, and as other posters pointed out, Christ said nothing about three nights. Thus, His prophecy was fulfilled.

 

[chosen_people]

.
Hello chosen people, can you answer the question that I asked of Br. JR. OSF, i.e.:-

Did the Lord instruct the Children of Israel to celebrate the Passover on that same day throughout their generations, i.e.:-the fourteenth day of the first month?
Regards, ALISANDRO.

Passover begins on **the fifteenth day **of Nissan and it is indeed celebrated on the same day throughout the generations (Exodus 12:14 "This day shall become …(which means that the festival of passover is a remembrance that is to begin on this day, the anniversary of the exodus which took place on the fifteenth of Nissan). If you read Leviticus 23:4-8 (as well as perusing Exodus 12:14-20) you can see that on the fourteenth day houses are made free from leavened food, the pesach offering is on the fourteenth of Nissan in the afternoon and passover and the Seder are on the fifteenth, which would begin after sundown. As to applying this information to your scriptures it would seem that the last supper took place on a Thursday night and Yeshua died on Friday before sunset (fifteenth of Nissan). If you go by John then everything is moved up a day. The year is a problem even if an age of 33 at the time of his death may be attributed to Yeshua. Mathew has Yeshua born during the the reign of King Herod who died in 4 b.c.e (Mathew 2:1) and according to Luke Yeshua was born in the year of the Roman census (of Quirinius) which occurred in 6 c.e. (Luke 2:1-6, Antiquities 18:1:1, Jewish Wars 7:8:1, Josephus).

 

[inkaneer]

This is the text of Matthew 12:28-40:

I see nothing in there about three nights, like you claim. So if you could make that connection for me, that’d be great.

This is Christ’s prophecy (which you’re trying to debunk):

(John 2:12-22)

As you can see, and as other posters pointed out, Christ said nothing about three nights. Thus, His prophecy was fulfilled.

Matthew 12:28 says:

“For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” DR version

“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” KJV

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” RSV

Jonah 1:17 says:

“And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah; and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.” RSV

Back to square one.

 

[coolduude]

My mistake. The actual verse is Matthew 12:40, not 12:28.

 

[chosen_people]

This is the text of Matthew 12:28-40:

I see nothing in there about three nights, like you claim. So if you could make that connection for me, that’d be great.

This is Christ’s prophecy (which you’re trying to debunk):

(John 2:12-22)

As you can see, and as other posters pointed out, Christ said nothing about three nights. Thus, His prophecy was fulfilled.

" 38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.”
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one[e] greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.

That is Matthew 12:38-42 to the best of my knowledge and understanding. Please point out my mistake if I have misquoted. By any calculation Yeshua was not three days and three nights in his tomb. The length of time that he was is in the tomb is in dispute in the Christian scriptures. According to John 20:1 Yeshua was two days and two nights. According to Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, Matthew 28:1-Yeshua was three days and two nights.

Finally, I raise these points merely as they have been raised as part of the discussion. I am a guest on this forum and have no wish to impugn on anyone’s beliefs. I am merely curious as to the accepted explanations.

 

[coolduude]

Maybe this link will help:

wcg.org/lit/jesus/howlong.htm