C
ColdComfort
Guest
No rethink for me even with the very interesting information provided by Patrick. Just confirms my opinion back when the show aired. Perhaps the OP however might re-evaluate his views. I hope so.
- Status
P
patrick457
Guest
Continuing where I left off yesterday:
Jesus said [to them], “Stop sac[rificing …] which you have …] over the altar, since they are over your stars and your angels and have already come to their conclusion there. So let them be [ensnared] before you, and let them go —about 15 lines missing—] generations …]. A baker cannot feed all creation under [heaven]. And …] to them …] and …] to us and …].
Jesus said to them, “Stop struggling with me. Each of you has his own star, and every[body—about 17 lines missing—] in …] who has come … spring] for the tree …] of this aeon …] for a time …] but he has come to water God’s paradise, and the [generation] that will last, because [he] will not defile the [walk of life of] that generation, but …] for all eternity.”
Properly translated, the section is not so much a request by Jesus to Judas, but a prediction. There is no doubt a docetic perspective here which sees a separation between the spiritual “ungenerated one” and the human outer shell, but there is no request for Judas to be the mechanism for the shedding of that shell. In the quotes given in the last post and above, we can see Jesus berating the other disciples for offering sacrifices to the lower god. Judas does not exceed the other disciples, in some positive, effectual sense; he is worse than the other disciples. Whereas the other disciples are fools, worshiping the wrong deity (Saklas) and offering sacrifices the way the Jews do, Judas, Jesus foretells, will be far worse, because he will sacrifice the very man in whom the spirit of Jesus dwells.
“Truly * say to you, Judas, [those who] offer sacrifices to Saklas … everything that is evil. But you will do more than all of them, for the man that clothes me, you will sacrifice him.”
GJ basically casts the apostles in a very negative light. In fact, it seems to associate the twelve Archons that Judas will rule over with the twelve apostles who curse Judas and try to stone him. The work is very clear that Judas has been replaced with a twelfth apostle so that their number will match the numerology of Yaldabaoth’s realms (cf. Acts 1:12-14). This negative interpretation of the twelve apostles is close to that found in the First Apocalypse of James, where the twelve Archons, who are armed adversaries of Jesus, are a ‘type’ of the twelve discples.
Apparently, whoever wrote the Gospel of Judas is criticizing the apostolic Church by identifying its main figures with the ignorant and rebellious Archons, demons who curse the very demon who made possible their atonement. GJ’s Jesus does not approve of them partaking of the Eucharist (“thanksgiving over the bread”); in fact, He laughs at them in a very sinister way and says that “[they] are not doing this because of [their] own will but because it is through this that [their] god will be praised.” In fact, this ‘god’ that the disciples worship is not the same God that sent Jesus. Whenever they partake of the Eucharist, Yaldabaoth is receiving the benefit. It is he they are worshipping, and it is this they are ignorant of.
This criticism is a reflection of the 2nd century theological dispute over whose god is the correct god. By criticizing the legitimacy of the ‘god’ to whom the apostolic Church offers sacrifice, the author participates in a broader dispute among Jews, Christians and pagans over whose god(s) should be worshipped. Pagans accused Christians of atheism because they did not offer sacrifice to the Greco-Roman gods; Jews and Christians, in turn, railed against pagans as idolaters for offering sacrifice to ‘dead’ gods and demons. Christian apologists in the 2nd century criticized pagans not so much for offering sacrifice, but that they offered to demons pretending to be gods. GJ indicts orthodox Christianity with a similar charge: they worship in error because they offer sacrifice (the Eucharist) to the wrong god who is really an apostate angel.
The disciples continue to show off their ignorance when they are unable to confess who Jesus is and are shown up by the worst demon of all, Judas Iscariot, who is able to proclaim Jesus’ true identity and is demonstrably more perfect than they. For an early Christian gnostic text to say that Judas the demon ‘got it’ while the Twelve could not - and that even Judas the accursed disciple was more perfect than they - is a characterization of the Twelve that could not be more subversive or severe. We can be reminded here of the gospel of Mark and its picture of the blind disciples. It is in Mark that the demons are the entities who recognize Jesus and confess Him, including Peter who is rebuked as Satan (1:34; 3:11; 5:6-7; 8:31-33).
The reason why the author of GJ is very harsh on the apostles is not because he hates Christianity, but rather because he is worried that Christians were being led astray by the Apostolic Church, which claimed to rely on teachings derived from the Twelve. The author (perhaps basing himself on a very literal reading of Mark) reasons that the apostles were actually so ignorant and faithless that even the demons - including Judas - know more than they do. In other words, the author is attacking the idea of Apostolic Tradition.*
Jesus said [to them], “Stop sac[rificing …] which you have …] over the altar, since they are over your stars and your angels and have already come to their conclusion there. So let them be [ensnared] before you, and let them go —about 15 lines missing—] generations …]. A baker cannot feed all creation under [heaven]. And …] to them …] and …] to us and …].
Jesus said to them, “Stop struggling with me. Each of you has his own star, and every[body—about 17 lines missing—] in …] who has come … spring] for the tree …] of this aeon …] for a time …] but he has come to water God’s paradise, and the [generation] that will last, because [he] will not defile the [walk of life of] that generation, but …] for all eternity.”
I quoted this because it will be relevant for the following section. Continuing:
Properly translated, the section is not so much a request by Jesus to Judas, but a prediction. There is no doubt a docetic perspective here which sees a separation between the spiritual “ungenerated one” and the human outer shell, but there is no request for Judas to be the mechanism for the shedding of that shell. In the quotes given in the last post and above, we can see Jesus berating the other disciples for offering sacrifices to the lower god. Judas does not exceed the other disciples, in some positive, effectual sense; he is worse than the other disciples. Whereas the other disciples are fools, worshiping the wrong deity (Saklas) and offering sacrifices the way the Jews do, Judas, Jesus foretells, will be far worse, because he will sacrifice the very man in whom the spirit of Jesus dwells.
“Truly * say to you, Judas, [those who] offer sacrifices to Saklas … everything that is evil. But you will do more than all of them, for the man that clothes me, you will sacrifice him.”
GJ basically casts the apostles in a very negative light. In fact, it seems to associate the twelve Archons that Judas will rule over with the twelve apostles who curse Judas and try to stone him. The work is very clear that Judas has been replaced with a twelfth apostle so that their number will match the numerology of Yaldabaoth’s realms (cf. Acts 1:12-14). This negative interpretation of the twelve apostles is close to that found in the First Apocalypse of James, where the twelve Archons, who are armed adversaries of Jesus, are a ‘type’ of the twelve discples.
Apparently, whoever wrote the Gospel of Judas is criticizing the apostolic Church by identifying its main figures with the ignorant and rebellious Archons, demons who curse the very demon who made possible their atonement. GJ’s Jesus does not approve of them partaking of the Eucharist (“thanksgiving over the bread”); in fact, He laughs at them in a very sinister way and says that “[they] are not doing this because of [their] own will but because it is through this that [their] god will be praised.” In fact, this ‘god’ that the disciples worship is not the same God that sent Jesus. Whenever they partake of the Eucharist, Yaldabaoth is receiving the benefit. It is he they are worshipping, and it is this they are ignorant of.
This criticism is a reflection of the 2nd century theological dispute over whose god is the correct god. By criticizing the legitimacy of the ‘god’ to whom the apostolic Church offers sacrifice, the author participates in a broader dispute among Jews, Christians and pagans over whose god(s) should be worshipped. Pagans accused Christians of atheism because they did not offer sacrifice to the Greco-Roman gods; Jews and Christians, in turn, railed against pagans as idolaters for offering sacrifice to ‘dead’ gods and demons. Christian apologists in the 2nd century criticized pagans not so much for offering sacrifice, but that they offered to demons pretending to be gods. GJ indicts orthodox Christianity with a similar charge: they worship in error because they offer sacrifice (the Eucharist) to the wrong god who is really an apostate angel.
The disciples continue to show off their ignorance when they are unable to confess who Jesus is and are shown up by the worst demon of all, Judas Iscariot, who is able to proclaim Jesus’ true identity and is demonstrably more perfect than they. For an early Christian gnostic text to say that Judas the demon ‘got it’ while the Twelve could not - and that even Judas the accursed disciple was more perfect than they - is a characterization of the Twelve that could not be more subversive or severe. We can be reminded here of the gospel of Mark and its picture of the blind disciples. It is in Mark that the demons are the entities who recognize Jesus and confess Him, including Peter who is rebuked as Satan (1:34; 3:11; 5:6-7; 8:31-33).
The reason why the author of GJ is very harsh on the apostles is not because he hates Christianity, but rather because he is worried that Christians were being led astray by the Apostolic Church, which claimed to rely on teachings derived from the Twelve. The author (perhaps basing himself on a very literal reading of Mark) reasons that the apostles were actually so ignorant and faithless that even the demons - including Judas - know more than they do. In other words, the author is attacking the idea of Apostolic Tradition.*
P
patrick457
Guest
What the author is doing basically is to challenge the apostolic Church’s teachings. As you all may know there is the idea of Sacred Tradition, the teachings handed down by Jesus to the apostles and by the apostles to their successors. So what GJ does is argue that these teachings are wrong, because the foundational link in the chain was corrupt.* Because the disciples were ignorant and faithless, whatever information they passed on was bogus. Following their teachings leads people astray, and joining in their rituals tricks them into worshipping the wrong god, which would lead to the annihilation rather than the salvation of countless Christians. In effect, the author insinuating that they are right because they have the real ‘knowledge’ (gnosis), while the apostolic Church is wrong because they are built upon corrupt foundations.
Some even think that the author attacks the idea of Jesus’ death as being sacrificial alongside the reenactment in the Eucharist. They would have seen the idea of God sending His Son down to earth to suffer and die for the sins of humanity as some form of cosmic child abuse. This is probably why in the Gospel of Judas the Twelve are accused of engaging in child sacrifice and understand Judas the demon as the one who initiated it. The Sethians pointed out the problem: if Jesus’ death really was a sacrifice made by God for the purpose of salvation, why would a demon (John 6:70; also cf. Luke 22:3; John 13:2,27) be the instrument? And why would Judas be cursed for his involvement?
The apostolic doctrine struck them as dangerous and humorous at the same time, because they felt that it showed up the ignorance and ineffectiveness of the apostolic faith. Judas was a demon, and the one who put out Jesus’ death warrant was Nebro-Yaldabaoth. Judas collaborated with him, and together they brought about Jesus’ sacrifice, which was nothing less than apostasy and murder. The sacrifice was a sacrifice to Nebro-Yaldabaoth/Saklas and his Archons, so all Eucharistic offerings serve only to worship and extol him.
Judas’ role in the Passion is presented in GJ in such such a way that his actions are understood as a mystery with supernatural involvement and consequences, consistent with Sethian mentality, which understands earthly activities as corresponding to larger and more profound events in the spiritual world. The spiritual activity has been hidden from humans in such a way that only through revelation given by a descending aeon from the Pleroma can the true meaning of the earthly occurrence become known.
The paradigm here is not a mirror image as it is in Valentinianism, where earthly events are imperfect shadows of the activities of the upper aeonic world. In Sethianism, humans are participants in a supernatural drama. This always involves an action by the upper aeons to redeem its lost light, and a counteraction by Yaldabaoth and his assistants to stop redemption. The stories involve intrigue, suspense and trickery on the part of both parties as they engage in a primordial and historical war over the human spirit. Since some of the action occurs on earth in historical time, the war does not involve just aeons and archons, but also human beings.
So basically, what we have here is not a Judas who is a human actor betraying a human Jesus as a good friend or a trusted confidant, but a Judas who is aligned with the demons who rule this world. The Archons, who wage war against the Father above, wish to kill Jesus before the Father can implement whatever plan of His own He may have been contriving against them, and their use their pawn, Judas the “thirteenth demon.” In effect, Judas did the most heinous thing imaginable by sacrificing the body of Jesus to the chief Archon (Nebro-Yaldabaoth/Saklas), taking on an instrumental part in the cosmic archonic war.
Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, this baptism (…) my name (…) to me. Truly I say to you, Judas, those who offer sacrifices to Saklas (…) everything that is evil. But you will do more than all of them, for the man that clothes me, you will sacrifice him.
Already your horn has been raised,
your wrath has been kindled,
your star has shown brightly,
and your heart has (…).”
Jesus predicts that Judas will be successful in committing this crime. The meaning of “already your horn has been raised” is particularly telling, since it appears in the Psalms to refer to the fact that one has been victorious in battle and has blown his horn triumphantly after the defeat of his enemies (Psalm 89:24; 92:10; 112:9). The phrase, “your wrath kindled,” refers to Judas’ motivation, while the ascendancy of his star is astrological language referring to the determination of Judas’ actions, that he no longer has a choice in the matter. His actions will be instrumental in destroying Jesus.
Some even think that the author attacks the idea of Jesus’ death as being sacrificial alongside the reenactment in the Eucharist. They would have seen the idea of God sending His Son down to earth to suffer and die for the sins of humanity as some form of cosmic child abuse. This is probably why in the Gospel of Judas the Twelve are accused of engaging in child sacrifice and understand Judas the demon as the one who initiated it. The Sethians pointed out the problem: if Jesus’ death really was a sacrifice made by God for the purpose of salvation, why would a demon (John 6:70; also cf. Luke 22:3; John 13:2,27) be the instrument? And why would Judas be cursed for his involvement?
The apostolic doctrine struck them as dangerous and humorous at the same time, because they felt that it showed up the ignorance and ineffectiveness of the apostolic faith. Judas was a demon, and the one who put out Jesus’ death warrant was Nebro-Yaldabaoth. Judas collaborated with him, and together they brought about Jesus’ sacrifice, which was nothing less than apostasy and murder. The sacrifice was a sacrifice to Nebro-Yaldabaoth/Saklas and his Archons, so all Eucharistic offerings serve only to worship and extol him.
- P.S. This line of argument seems kinda familiar, ain’t it?
Judas’ role in the Passion is presented in GJ in such such a way that his actions are understood as a mystery with supernatural involvement and consequences, consistent with Sethian mentality, which understands earthly activities as corresponding to larger and more profound events in the spiritual world. The spiritual activity has been hidden from humans in such a way that only through revelation given by a descending aeon from the Pleroma can the true meaning of the earthly occurrence become known.
The paradigm here is not a mirror image as it is in Valentinianism, where earthly events are imperfect shadows of the activities of the upper aeonic world. In Sethianism, humans are participants in a supernatural drama. This always involves an action by the upper aeons to redeem its lost light, and a counteraction by Yaldabaoth and his assistants to stop redemption. The stories involve intrigue, suspense and trickery on the part of both parties as they engage in a primordial and historical war over the human spirit. Since some of the action occurs on earth in historical time, the war does not involve just aeons and archons, but also human beings.
So basically, what we have here is not a Judas who is a human actor betraying a human Jesus as a good friend or a trusted confidant, but a Judas who is aligned with the demons who rule this world. The Archons, who wage war against the Father above, wish to kill Jesus before the Father can implement whatever plan of His own He may have been contriving against them, and their use their pawn, Judas the “thirteenth demon.” In effect, Judas did the most heinous thing imaginable by sacrificing the body of Jesus to the chief Archon (Nebro-Yaldabaoth/Saklas), taking on an instrumental part in the cosmic archonic war.
Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, this baptism (…) my name (…) to me. Truly I say to you, Judas, those who offer sacrifices to Saklas (…) everything that is evil. But you will do more than all of them, for the man that clothes me, you will sacrifice him.
Already your horn has been raised,
your wrath has been kindled,
your star has shown brightly,
and your heart has (…).”
Jesus predicts that Judas will be successful in committing this crime. The meaning of “already your horn has been raised” is particularly telling, since it appears in the Psalms to refer to the fact that one has been victorious in battle and has blown his horn triumphantly after the defeat of his enemies (Psalm 89:24; 92:10; 112:9). The phrase, “your wrath kindled,” refers to Judas’ motivation, while the ascendancy of his star is astrological language referring to the determination of Judas’ actions, that he no longer has a choice in the matter. His actions will be instrumental in destroying Jesus.
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patrick457
Guest
By the way, let’s compare two translations here - the first is the 2006 National Geographic translation by Meyer et.al., and the other is 2011 the translation by Lance Jenott.
One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples, gathered together and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed.
The disciples said to [him], “Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of thanksgiving? We have done what is right.”
He answered and said to them, “I am not laughing at you. are not doing this because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised.”
They said, “Master, you are …] the son of our god.”
Jesus said to them, “How do you know me? Truly * say to you, no generation of the people that are among you will know me.”
When his disciples heard this, they started getting angry and infuriated and began blaspheming against him in their hearts.
When Jesus observed their lack of [understanding, he said] to them, “Why has this agitation led you to anger? Your god who is within you and …] have provoked you to anger [within] your souls. [Let] any one of you who is [strong enough] among human beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face.”
They all said, “We have the strength.”
But their spirits did not dare to stand before [him], except for Judas Iscariot. He was able to stand before him, but he could not look him in the eyes, and he turned his face away.
Judas [said] to him, “I know who you are and where you have come from. You are from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one who has sent you.”
Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him, “Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. For someone else will replace you, in order that the twelve [disciples] may again come to completion with their god.”
Judas said to him, “When will you tell me these things, and [when] will the great day of light dawn for the generation?”
But when he said this, Jesus left him.
===
One day he came in Judea to his disciples, and found them seated, gathered together, practicing godliness. When he saw] his disciples gathered together, seated, giving thanks over the bread, he] laughed. But the disciples said to him, “Teacher, why are you laughing at our] thanksgiving? What have we done? It is what’s right.” He responded to them saying, “I’m not laughing at you. Nor are you doing this by your will; but rather it is by this that your god [will be] praised.”
They said, “Teacher, you …] are the son of our god.” Jesus said to them, “How do you] know me? Indeed I say to you, no race of people among you will know me.”
When the disciples heard this, [they] began to get contentious and angry, and were blaspheming against him in their hearts. But when Jesus saw their foolishness, he said] to them, “Why has confusion brought forth anger? Your god who is within you and his stars] have become contentious with your souls. Let the stable] one among you people bring forth the perfect human and stand before my face.”
And they all said, “We are strong.” But their spirit could not dare to stand in his] presence, except for Judas Iscariot. He could stand before him, but not look into his eyes; instead he turned his face away. Judas said to him, “I know who you are and whence you have come. You have come from the immortal realm of Barbelo, and he who sent you, I am not worthy to proclaim his name.”
Now since Jesus knew that he (Judas) was considering something lofty, he said to him, “Separate from them and I will tell you the mysteries of the kingdom; not so you may go there, but so that you will mourn deeply. For indeed there is another who will take your place, so that the twelve elements] shall be complete in their god.” And Judas said to him, “What day will you tell me about this? And when will the great day of light dawn for that] race?” Yet when he said this, Jesus left him.*
One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples, gathered together and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed.
The disciples said to [him], “Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of thanksgiving? We have done what is right.”
He answered and said to them, “I am not laughing at you. are not doing this because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised.”
They said, “Master, you are …] the son of our god.”
Jesus said to them, “How do you know me? Truly * say to you, no generation of the people that are among you will know me.”
When his disciples heard this, they started getting angry and infuriated and began blaspheming against him in their hearts.
When Jesus observed their lack of [understanding, he said] to them, “Why has this agitation led you to anger? Your god who is within you and …] have provoked you to anger [within] your souls. [Let] any one of you who is [strong enough] among human beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face.”
They all said, “We have the strength.”
But their spirits did not dare to stand before [him], except for Judas Iscariot. He was able to stand before him, but he could not look him in the eyes, and he turned his face away.
Judas [said] to him, “I know who you are and where you have come from. You are from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one who has sent you.”
Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him, “Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. For someone else will replace you, in order that the twelve [disciples] may again come to completion with their god.”
Judas said to him, “When will you tell me these things, and [when] will the great day of light dawn for the generation?”
But when he said this, Jesus left him.
===
One day he came in Judea to his disciples, and found them seated, gathered together, practicing godliness. When he saw] his disciples gathered together, seated, giving thanks over the bread, he] laughed. But the disciples said to him, “Teacher, why are you laughing at our] thanksgiving? What have we done? It is what’s right.” He responded to them saying, “I’m not laughing at you. Nor are you doing this by your will; but rather it is by this that your god [will be] praised.”
They said, “Teacher, you …] are the son of our god.” Jesus said to them, “How do you] know me? Indeed I say to you, no race of people among you will know me.”
When the disciples heard this, [they] began to get contentious and angry, and were blaspheming against him in their hearts. But when Jesus saw their foolishness, he said] to them, “Why has confusion brought forth anger? Your god who is within you and his stars] have become contentious with your souls. Let the stable] one among you people bring forth the perfect human and stand before my face.”
And they all said, “We are strong.” But their spirit could not dare to stand in his] presence, except for Judas Iscariot. He could stand before him, but not look into his eyes; instead he turned his face away. Judas said to him, “I know who you are and whence you have come. You have come from the immortal realm of Barbelo, and he who sent you, I am not worthy to proclaim his name.”
Now since Jesus knew that he (Judas) was considering something lofty, he said to him, “Separate from them and I will tell you the mysteries of the kingdom; not so you may go there, but so that you will mourn deeply. For indeed there is another who will take your place, so that the twelve elements] shall be complete in their god.” And Judas said to him, “What day will you tell me about this? And when will the great day of light dawn for that] race?” Yet when he said this, Jesus left him.*
P
patrick457
Guest
Judas said, “Master, as you have listened to all of them, now also listen to me. For I have seen a great vision.”
When Jesus heard this, he laughed and said to him, “You thirteenth spirit, why do you try so hard? But speak up, and I shall bear with you.”
Judas said to him, “In the vision I saw myself as the twelve disciples were stoning me and persecuting [me severely]. And I also came to the place where …] after you. I saw [a house …], and my eyes could not [comprehend] its size. Great people were surrounding it, and that house a roof of greenery, and in the middle of the house was [a crowd—two lines missing—], saying, ‘Master, take me in along with these people.’”
[Jesus] answered and said, “Judas, your star has led you astray.” He continued, “No person of mortal birth is worthy to enter the house you have seen, for that place is reserved for the holy. Neither the sun nor the moon will rule there, nor the day, but the holy will abide there always, in the eternal realm with the holy angels. Look, I have explained to you the mysteries of the kingdom and I have taught you about the error of the stars; and …] send it …] on the twelve aeons.”
Judas said, “Master, could it be that my seed is under the control of the rulers?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Come, that I —two lines missing—], but that you will grieve much when you see the kingdom and all its generation.”
When he heard this, Judas said to him, “What good is it that I have received it? For you have set me apart for that generation.”
Jesus answered and said, “You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the other generations—and you will come to rule over them. In the last days they will curse your ascent to the holy [generation].”
===
Judas said, “Teacher, just as you listened to all of them, now listen to me. For I have seen a great vision.” But when Jesus heard (this) he laughed. He said to him, “Why are you so worked up, you thirteenth daimon? If you speak too, I shall bear with you.”
Judas said to him, “I saw myself in the vision. The twelve disciples are stoning me. They’re chasing me rapidly]. Yet then I came to the place where I had followed] you. I saw a house in this place], and its size my eyes could not measure. Great people were surrounding it, and that house was roofed with † lightning. † And in the middle of the house there was …] …] Teacher, receive me too with these people.”
Jesus] responded saying, “Your star has led you astray, Judas. For indeed, no mortally born human is worthy to enter the house that you saw. For that is the place kept for the holy ones, the place where neither the sun nor moon nor day will rule, but they will always stand in the realm with the holy angels. Behold, I have told you the mysteries of the kingdom and I have taught you about the error of the stars. And …] has been sent on high] over the twelve realms.”
Judas said, “Teacher, surely my own seed does not dominate over the rulers.” Jesus responded saying to him, “Come, and I shall speak] with you about the holy race – not so that you will go to it], but so that you will mourn deeply when you see the kingdom with its entire race.”
When Judas heard this, he said to him, “What profit have I gained by your setting me apart from that race?” Jesus answered, saying, “You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the rest of the races, and you will rule over them. In the last days they <will …> to you. And you will not go up to the holy race.”
When Jesus heard this, he laughed and said to him, “You thirteenth spirit, why do you try so hard? But speak up, and I shall bear with you.”
Judas said to him, “In the vision I saw myself as the twelve disciples were stoning me and persecuting [me severely]. And I also came to the place where …] after you. I saw [a house …], and my eyes could not [comprehend] its size. Great people were surrounding it, and that house a roof of greenery, and in the middle of the house was [a crowd—two lines missing—], saying, ‘Master, take me in along with these people.’”
[Jesus] answered and said, “Judas, your star has led you astray.” He continued, “No person of mortal birth is worthy to enter the house you have seen, for that place is reserved for the holy. Neither the sun nor the moon will rule there, nor the day, but the holy will abide there always, in the eternal realm with the holy angels. Look, I have explained to you the mysteries of the kingdom and I have taught you about the error of the stars; and …] send it …] on the twelve aeons.”
Judas said, “Master, could it be that my seed is under the control of the rulers?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Come, that I —two lines missing—], but that you will grieve much when you see the kingdom and all its generation.”
When he heard this, Judas said to him, “What good is it that I have received it? For you have set me apart for that generation.”
Jesus answered and said, “You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the other generations—and you will come to rule over them. In the last days they will curse your ascent to the holy [generation].”
===
Judas said, “Teacher, just as you listened to all of them, now listen to me. For I have seen a great vision.” But when Jesus heard (this) he laughed. He said to him, “Why are you so worked up, you thirteenth daimon? If you speak too, I shall bear with you.”
Judas said to him, “I saw myself in the vision. The twelve disciples are stoning me. They’re chasing me rapidly]. Yet then I came to the place where I had followed] you. I saw a house in this place], and its size my eyes could not measure. Great people were surrounding it, and that house was roofed with † lightning. † And in the middle of the house there was …] …] Teacher, receive me too with these people.”
Jesus] responded saying, “Your star has led you astray, Judas. For indeed, no mortally born human is worthy to enter the house that you saw. For that is the place kept for the holy ones, the place where neither the sun nor moon nor day will rule, but they will always stand in the realm with the holy angels. Behold, I have told you the mysteries of the kingdom and I have taught you about the error of the stars. And …] has been sent on high] over the twelve realms.”
Judas said, “Teacher, surely my own seed does not dominate over the rulers.” Jesus responded saying to him, “Come, and I shall speak] with you about the holy race – not so that you will go to it], but so that you will mourn deeply when you see the kingdom with its entire race.”
When Judas heard this, he said to him, “What profit have I gained by your setting me apart from that race?” Jesus answered, saying, “You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the rest of the races, and you will rule over them. In the last days they <will …> to you. And you will not go up to the holy race.”
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chero23
Guest
So last night I’m watching on national geographic, a report on the Gospel of Judas. It was a 2 hr report. In it they talked about how they found the book, put it together and made sure it was authentic.
Well, they spent some time going after st. Ireneus, they spoke about he as an early church father, he did not want that gospel As a legit book bc of its content.
They finally read some of what the gospel said, and in it, it said, Jesus arrived late to the late supper, he got there laughing and laughing. He then told the apostles, you guys have been fooled, I am not god, their is something stronger than me.
I knew then that it was fake as well and that the national geography was giving false testimony.
Well, they spent some time going after st. Ireneus, they spoke about he as an early church father, he did not want that gospel As a legit book bc of its content.
They finally read some of what the gospel said, and in it, it said, Jesus arrived late to the late supper, he got there laughing and laughing. He then told the apostles, you guys have been fooled, I am not god, their is something stronger than me.
I knew then that it was fake as well and that the national geography was giving false testimony.
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patrick457
Guest
I know it’s a bit lengthy (okay, it’s very lengthy - because of my fault
), but I actually posted on the Gospel of Judas on a recent thread. Why don’t you take a look?
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Edward_H
Guest
I am impressed with your thorough contributions. Nice to see. Thank you.
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dailey
Guest
Are you serious? That is just…odd.
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patrick457
Guest
To summarize the work’s content in a few words: disciples offer Eucharist - Jesus laughs at them. Judas thinks he’s so special - Jesus laughs at him. Jesus tells Judas all sorts of stuff that Judas will never enjoy anyway - Jesus is arrested. The end.
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Publisher
Guest
The Gospel of Judas was also written to speak against martyrdom and dying needlessly which the proto-orthodox writers of the 2nd and 3rd glorified. Those Christians that accepted the Gospel of Judas were often vilified by the proto-orthodox Christians since they did not willfully seek death for their faith.
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brb3
Guest
Patrick …
U should do an EWTN 2hr special on the real GJ meaning …
U should do an EWTN 2hr special on the real GJ meaning …
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brb3
Guest
I too caught the last 1/2 hr of GJ on Nat.Geo. Was really comical…pure fiction.
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Celticnovice
Guest
This
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Harry1941
Guest
I agree with you, I been watching the Gospel of Judas on youtube. He never wented to rat on Jesus. Judas was told by the Lord to do so. One day the Disciples were praying at a meal, and Jesus started laughing, the Disciples were upset over it. The reason the Lord was laughing was because they were praying to the god who created this world, our natural world. God is the Creator of the soul of man. The natural world was here billions of years before the book of Genesis was written. Judas’s mind was openr to the secrets of heaven., taught by the Lord.
Harry
…
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patrick457
Guest
I’d advise you to read this whole thread first. Yes, it’s long, but I think you’ll find that some of the interpretations that National Geographic had pushed for are based on faulty translations of certain passages.I agree with you, I been watching the Gospel of Judas on youtube. He never wented to rat on Jesus. Judas was told by the Lord to do so. One day the Disciples were praying at a meal, and Jesus started laughing, the Disciples were upset over it. The reason the Lord was laughing was because they were praying to the god who created this world, our natural world. God is the Creator of the soul of man. The natural world was here billions of years before the book of Genesis was written. Judas’s mind was openr to the secrets of heaven., taught by the Lord.
Harry
You do realize that GJ’s cosmological scenario (where the material universe is created by a lower ‘god’ and his minions distinct from the true God) is gnostic and runs contrary to Christian teaching, don’t you? And I hope you don’t hold GJ’s extremely negative portrait of the disciples.
Besides Judas isn’t even the ‘good guy’ here: he is the “thirteenth demon,” the pawn of Nebro/Saklas, the Demiurge who created and rules the material world. If the disciples committed a heinous crime in (unknowingly) offering sacrifice to Saklas, Judas will perpetrate the worst: he will sacrifice Jesus’ bodily shell in an attempt to prevent Him from completing His mission.
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superjezzi101
Guest
When the Bible was put together all the accounts of Jesus’ life were put into account and only the ones that matched the Tradition (oral passing down) of these stories were allowed to be accepted into the bible. The Bible wasn’t finalized until the Council of Trent and thousands of scholars have looked over the other Gospel accounts. As a whole, the scholars came to an agreement that what was said in certain accounts was not anywhere close to the Tradition. These Gospels, like that of Judas Iscariot, are considered banned works of the Faith because they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit and eyewitness accounts. One can be interested in Judas’ story, but living a life around the Gospel of Judas could be considered heretical in the eyes of the Church.
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Harry1941
Guest
I wasn’t answeriing the National Geographic. I was answering the way I was taught and believed to be true. The passion of the cross was the last temptation which the Lord, as the greatest Prophet, endured; also it was a means of glorifying His Human, Divine and uniting it with the Divine of the Father; but it was not redemption. This is the reason Judas was told to turn the Lord in, by the Lord Himself. The Lord knew these thing had to be done. The Lord would have never risen as to His Human, if He had not glorified it from the cross.
The desciples weren’t there with Judas when the high priest gave him thirty coins of silver. Judas turn the Lord in, but not for thirty silver coins. The Desciples weren’t there to see Judas hang himself or junp to his death. The Gospels weren’t written by the Disciples themselves. They were written after their death.
Harry
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Harry1941
Guest
Code:
There was another man in history who was also taught the secrets of heaven,by the Lord, He was born 1688. He was not accept by the Catholic Church. The 18th century Pope wanted nothing to do with him. I'll give you a cue. He wrote the book name "Heaven and Hell"
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MarkInOregon
Guest
I have to ask – how can you be a devout Catholic – if you don’t beleive what the Catholic Church teaches? If you reject what the Catholic Church teaches --why do you think you’re Catholic and why do you want to claim such affiliation?
Peace,
Mark
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