Gospel Play???

[Shoreguy1105]

This past weekend my wife and I attended mass at the church we just joined (we were told we had to join this parish since are new home fell within its boundaries). After the Gospel Acclamation (at which time the congregation stood), the Deacon told the congregation to be seated and along with the Celebrant and the Lector proceeded to proclaim the Gospel much like the Passion on Passion Sunday with the Deacon taking the part of the narrator, the Celebrant the part of Christ, and the Lector the part of the Samaritan woman. I have never seen this done before and would like to know if this is permitted. My belief was the only the Celebrant or a Deacon could proclaim the Gospel. My wife, who is Methodist, said it felt more like a play then the proclamation of God’s Word. By the way the Pastor was in the rear of the Church and appeared to approve of this action. Should I inform the Bishop? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[puzzleannie]

ongoing thread on this very topic
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=221275

 

[benedictgal]

This past weekend my wife and I attended mass at the church we just joined (we were told we had to join this parish since are new home fell within its boundaries). After the Gospel Acclamation (at which time the congregation stood), the Deacon told the congregation to be seated and along with the Celebrant and the Lector proceeded to proclaim the Gospel much like the Passion on Passion Sunday with the Deacon taking the part of the narrator, the Celebrant the part of Christ, and the Lector the part of the Samaritan woman. I have never seen this done before and would like to know if this is permitted. My belief was the only the Celebrant or a Deacon could proclaim the Gospel. My wife, who is Methodist, said it felt more like a play then the proclamation of God’s Word. By the way the Pastor was in the rear of the Church and appeared to approve of this action. Should I inform the Bishop? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Even though we already do have an ongoing thread on this, what you witnessed was wrong. According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[63.] Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”,139 is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.140 Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.141

There are only two instances when the Gospel may be read in dialogue form: Palm Sunday and Good Friday, as the Passion is proclaimed during this time.

Furthermore, geographic boundaries, as far as I can tell, shouldn’t necessarily bind you to belonging to that particular parish. My territorial parish is charismatic and somewhat of a nightmare. I belong to one that is about a 10-minute drive from my house and is okay (the only caveat is that they use OCP, but, then again, so does 99% of my diocese). Furthermore, if you cannot, in good cnoscience, be a part of a parish that has liturgical abuses, go somewhere else.

Our cathedral parish has very few people who live in its territorial boundaries. When IH-35 was extended to feed directly into our second international bridge, it wiped out most of the housing. So, many of the parishioners belong from all over town. That is also the case with some of the older parishes whose neighborhoods have been the unfortunate victims of urban sprawl.

 

[Shoreguy1105]

Thank you for answering my question. One other thing, would it be prudent to contact the local Ordinary about this abuse? I feel that many people will accept such practices as normal and be lead astray. By the way, I was very started when I found a parish in my new area I like and was told I could not join since I was not in their territory. This was especially hurtful because I want to resume taking an active roll in my parish (I was active with my former parish for many years and my family went there not because it was right next door (it was several miles away as opposed to the chruch a few blocks away) but because we enjoyed being members).

 

[benedictgal]

Thank you for answering my question. One other thing, would it be prudent to contact the local Ordinary about this abuse? I feel that many people will accept such practices as normal and be lead astray. By the way, I was very started when I found a parish in my new area I like and was told I could not join since I was not in their territory. This was especially hurtful because I want to resume taking an active roll in my parish (I was active with my former parish for many years and my family went there not because it was right next door (it was several miles away as opposed to the chruch a few blocks away) but because we enjoyed being members).

I would contact the local Ordinary. From what you described, this is serious. However, before you approach him, sit down with your pastor for a friendly chat. Explain what disturbed you (non-emotionally) and quote the relevent sections from Redemptionis Sacramentum.

Unfortunately, too many people caught the alleged Spirit of Vatican II without reading what the council documents actually said.

If you get nowhere with your pastor, then write the bishop. After all, it is the right of every Catholic to have the Mass celebrated in the manner in which the Church wants.

 

[Shoreguy1105]

Again, thank you for your advise. If I have any feedback about what happens I will let you know.

 

[agapewolf]

Depends on what is considered “youth.” Seeing as how the vatican has approved and encouraged youth massses, I think it is a fair debatable question considering that in the Lectionary of Masses for children:

Introduction, p 23:

Plays within the Liturgy of the Word:

Mass is not an historical reenactment of the events of salvation history and care shold be taken not to give the impression that the liturgy of the word is a play. This is not to say that dramatic elements may not be used, e.g., the readings may at times be divided into parts distributed among the children; …**

I’m sure there will be an arguement now that youth are not considered children in this case, but again the fact that there is such a thing as a youth mass could suggest that there would be elements such as this which would be appropriate.

I’m not arguing that it would be effective, just possibly allowed.

 

[John_Lilburne]

The 1973 Directory for Masses with Children has this:
“47. … Depending on the text of the reading, it may be helpful for the children to read it in parts distributed among them, as is provided for the reading of the Lord’s passion during Holy Week.”

It also has: “6. The Directory is concerned with children who have not yet entered the period of preadolescence. It does not speak directly of children who are physically or mentally handicapped, because a broader adaptation is sometimes necessary for them. Nevertheless, the following norms amy also be applied to the handicapped, with the necessary changes.”

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“32. Special celebrations of Mass should observe the guidelines established for them: … for Masses with children, cf. Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, Directory for Masses with Children, 1 November 1973: AAS 66 (1974), pp. 30-46;”

But the GIRM also has:
“109. … But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.”

I find the GIRM confusing here. In n. 32 is endorses splitting the readings. In n. 109 it says specifically that this is “not at all appropriate”.

 

[Phemie]

But this only applies at Masses with children in which only a few adults participate, as per the Directory for Masses with Children #47

And this document defines “children” thus:

1. The Directory is concerned with children who have not yet entered the period of preadolescence. It does not speak directly of children who are physically or mentally handicapped, because a broader adaptation is sometimes necessary for them. [7] Nevertheless, the following norms may also be applied to the handicapped, with the necessary changes.

Definitely doesn’t apply to youth, which for the purposes of World Youth Day are defined as those between 16-35.

 

[agapewolf]

Dir for Masses with Children show the allowable differences from the normal GIRM.

In a regular parish Sunday mass, follow the GIRM

in a children’ mass, the things in the DMC are allowed.

 

[agapewolf]

But this only applies at Masses with children in which only a few adults participate, as per the Directory for Masses with Children #47

And children as defined in this document are not, by any stretch of the imagination, teenagers.

I think this idea is debatable. In the very fact that the vatican has approved and encouraged youth masses means that there are differences… one could argue that there is some adaptation from the DMChildren.

 

[Phemie]

I think this idea is debatable. In the very fact that the vatican has approved and encouraged youth masses means that there are differences… one could argue that there is some adaptation from the DMChildren.

No, it’s not debatable since the DMC defines ‘children’ as those " who have not yet entered the period of preadolescence." So ages 4-10.

 

[benedictgal]

Phemie is right in her points. Furthermore, Paschale Solemnitatis, the Circular letter released by the Congregation for Divine Worship that outlines how Holy Week (and Lent) is to be celebrated says this regarding the reading of the Passion (and, here is the section regarding the only time that the Gospel may be divided up, so to speak):

1. The passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator, and the people. The passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers. In the latter case, the part of the Christ should be reserved to the priest.

The proclamation of the passion should be without candles and incense; the greeting and the sings of the cross are omitted; and only a deacon asks for the blessing, as he does before the Gospel. [37] For the spiritual good of the faithful, the passion should be proclaimed in its entirety, and the readings that proceed it should not be omitted.

1. After the passion has been proclaimed, a homily is to be given.

I bring this particular point up because there are those who have wondered about when the Gospel may be done in dialogue form. Palm Sunday and Good Friday are the only times.

Now, regarding the Directory for Masses with Children, Phemie’s take on it, as I mentioned earlier, is correct. Furthermore, we can’t stretch these things to make contort them into something that should not happen. That is how abuses happen. Remember, we are not called to be creative and engage in experiments based on some notion or personal idiosyncracy. We are called to receive the Holy Sacrifice and celebrate in the manner and form the Church requests.

 

[Shoreguy1105]

For a point of clairification, the mass I atteneded was not a mass for childern, in fact most of the people in attendence were over the age of 50.

 

[benedictgal]

For a point of clairification, the mass I atteneded was not a mass for childern, in fact most of the people in attendence were over the age of 50.

Then, what you witnessed was wrong. It was illicit.

 

[Shoreguy1105]

thanks,

It really has not gotten any better at this parish which I was told I had to belong to (since I fall within it’s boundries). Now they have the congregation seated for the Gospel reading. I really can not in good conscience go there anymore.

 

[benedictgal]

thanks,

It really has not gotten any better at this parish which I was told I had to belong to (since I fall within it’s boundries). Now they have the congregation seated for the Gospel reading. I really can not in good conscience go there anymore.

Sitting in the Gospel should only happen if you are elderly or disabled. My dad suffers from a bad back (and he also has a disability), so he sat down for the Gospel. That’s understandable. However, I can’t use wearing 3-inch pumps as an excuse. Vanity doesn’t count.

Besides, if Pope Benedict XVI can stand while the entire Passion narrative is being chanted by three deacons and the Sistene Chapel choir (and that was probably longer than the simple proclamation of it in dialogue form), then, we can surely stand, too.

Regarding your territorial issue, we are no longer bound by geography as far as parish membership is concerned. In my case, I am very grateful because our geographic parish is run by charismatics and that is not very good (bad liturgies and abuses all over the place). Furthermore, when IH-35 extended out into our second International Bridge (heading into Mexico), that cut a huge swath through our Cathedral’s neighborhood. In short, the parish lot a lot of families due to demolition. However, those who had to move never changed parishes. I go to a parish that is about 10 minutes north of my neighborhood. My dad belongs to the Cathedral.

Now, if you don’t have transportation (I didn’t have a car until three years after I graduated from UT), you’re either stuck with walking or taking the bus. I stayed in my neighborhood parish because it was within walking distance. However, when I was working at the Capitol, I was able to walk to either the Chancery or the Cathedral. And, friends gave me rides to Mass in other parts of town. I also took the bus to go to Mass in South Austin so I could be with my grandmother.

 

[Shoreguy1105]

I wanted to post the response I received from the Diocesans Office of Worship in response to asking them about the situation described earlier in this thread.

"The decision to proclaim the Gospel in parts would be that of the pastor who is free to make a pastoral judgment as to what would be the most beneficial for his assembly. In some cases, many present are very attentive to the Word of God, and would find that this special proclamation would heighten the importance of these Lenten Scriptures, especially during Cycle A on the 3rd, 4th and 5th Sundays of Lent

when the Scrutinies are celebrated with those about to be Baptized. On very special occasions also, the Scriptures may be sung or chanted, which is a slight departure from the norm, used again, for the good of the faithful.

The decision to have the assembly be seated during the Passion would also be that of the pastor. Yes, ordinarily, we stand for the Gospels, but the Introduction to the Lectionary makes it clear that the faithful are

“to listen to the word of God with and inward and outward reverence that will bring them continuous growth

in the spiritual life and draw them more deeply into the mystery which is celebrated.” # 45

In some cases where the length of the passage may cause more concern for one’s self, and distract from what it is that we should be doing – paying attention to and focusing on Jesus, the posture of sitting may well be the most conducive, especially where we are encouraged to make eye contact with those proclaiming the Scriptures, becoming fully engaged in them.

The recent General Instruction of the Roman Missal also pronounces again the place that silence has in our liturgies and rituals. In some cases where long narratives are prescribed for a particular Sunday, the interjection of silence at certain points, gives all of us more opportunity to absorb what has been proclaimed in the scriptures so far, adding a more reflective dimension to the Liturgy of the Word.

I hope that these few thoughts help you to see the wise choices made occasionally by pastors, who understand the nature and needs of their people. I suggest that we all pray for our priests who have many pastoral responsibilities and who care deeply for the Liturgy and the good people charged to their spiritual care.

Sincerely,

Sister M "

 

[benedictgal]

I wanted to post the response I received from the Diocesans Office of Worship in response to asking them about the situation described earlier in this thread.

"The decision to proclaim the Gospel in parts would be that of the pastor who is free to make a pastoral judgment as to what would be the most beneficial for his assembly. In some cases, many present are very attentive to the Word of God, and would find that this special proclamation would heighten the importance of these Lenten Scriptures, especially during Cycle A on the 3rd, 4th and 5th Sundays of Lent

when the Scrutinies are celebrated with those about to be Baptized. On very special occasions also, the Scriptures may be sung or chanted, which is a slight departure from the norm, used again, for the good of the faithful.

The decision to have the assembly be seated during the Passion would also be that of the pastor. Yes, ordinarily, we stand for the Gospels, but the Introduction to the Lectionary makes it clear that the faithful are

“to listen to the word of God with and inward and outward reverence that will bring them continuous growth

in the spiritual life and draw them more deeply into the mystery which is celebrated.” # 45

In some cases where the length of the passage may cause more concern for one’s self, and distract from what it is that we should be doing – paying attention to and focusing on Jesus, the posture of sitting may well be the most conducive, especially where we are encouraged to make eye contact with those proclaiming the Scriptures, becoming fully engaged in them.

The recent General Instruction of the Roman Missal also pronounces again the place that silence has in our liturgies and rituals. In some cases where long narratives are prescribed for a particular Sunday, the interjection of silence at certain points, gives all of us more opportunity to absorb what has been proclaimed in the scriptures so far, adding a more reflective dimension to the Liturgy of the Word.

I hope that these few thoughts help you to see the wise choices made occasionally by pastors, who understand the nature and needs of their people. I suggest that we all pray for our priests who have many pastoral responsibilities and who care deeply for the Liturgy and the good people charged to their spiritual care.

Sincerely,

Sister M "

Sister M is clearly wrong here with regard to the reading of the Gospel in parts. This is clearly against #109 in the GIRM (2002 Edition). Furthermore, it also violates Redemptionis Sacramentum’s mandate that only clergy (deaon, priest, bishop) are to read the Gospel.

The pastor has no such leeway in this case, nor does he have any when it comes to the posture for the Gospel (unless the folks are elderly or disabled or have some physical impediment that prevents them from standing for long periods of time).

 

[japhy]

The decision to proclaim the Gospel in parts would be that of the pastor who is free to make a pastoral judgment as to what would be the most beneficial for his assembly.

He’s free within the realm of choices given to him. He’s not allowed to go outside the regulations justly imposed on him by his bishop, conference of bishops, the CDWDS, or the Pope.

the Scriptures may be sung or chanted, which is a slight departure from the norm, used again, for the good of the faithful.

Hah! Not at all! See GIRM nn. 38-41; here’s an excerpt:In the rubrics and in the norms that follow, words such as “say” and “proclaim” are to be understood of both singing and reciting, according to the principles just stated above. … In the choosing of the parts actually to be sung, however, preference should be given to those that are of greater importance and especially to those to be sung by the priest or the deacon or the lector, with the people responding, or by the priest and people together.