Gospel Sung

[Andrewcarey]

yea…we have a really good Bishop here in my Diocese so I’m hoping that things will change with the music so I can join the church choir.

Quite all right. I hope I didn’t sound rude there.

Generally speaking, Protestant hymns are allowed if the words are not heretical. But I’m also pretty sure that all music is supposed to be approved by the bishop or bishops conference.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** Originally Posted by ABostonCatholic View Post
I thought not singing the psalms was the norm, and that singing them was an abuse.**

**Where did you get that idea? The Psalms were always originally sung. That’s what the Greek word “Psalmos” means–from the word “psallein”–to sing.

Haven’t you heard of monks SINGING the Psalms at the Divine Office? Are you saying that they would be doing an abuse?**

 

[ABostonCatholic]

** Originally Posted by ABostonCatholic View Post
I thought not singing the psalms was the norm, and that singing them was an abuse.**

**Where did you get that idea? The Psalms were always originally sung. That’s what the Greek word “Psalmos” means–from the word “psallein”–to sing.

Haven’t you heard of monks SINGING the Psalms at the Divine Office? Are you saying that they would be doing an abuse?**

If I had known you in 2003, I doubt I ever would have become Catholic.

As I have explained a couple times already, I thought that reciting them was the norm because when I first started going to Mass, having come from a Baptist background where there was an excessive amount of singing, including of Psalms, my church rarely had any music, and the psalms were not sung. Did I know ANYTHING of the monks at the time? No. My first impression is the one that has stuck with me, for better or worse.

Deal with it.

 

[jmcrae]

If I had known you in 2003, I doubt I ever would have become Catholic.

Maybe you became Catholic on the basis of a misunderstanding?

Deal with it.

How is this now our problem?

 

[ABostonCatholic]

Maybe you became Catholic on the basis of a misunderstanding?

How is this now our problem?

Oddly enough, the other posts are not here now. I guess the mods deleted them.

I don’t remember everything I said.

In regards to the first point, it was a comment more on basil’s attitude.

Here is how I imagine our meeting would have gone?

Me: “Wow! I went to my first Catholic Mass today! I was amazed at how reverent and silent the service was. There was no music that tried to manipulate our emotions, and all the Scripture was read in a plain voice so that we could actually hear, understand it, and reflect on it.”

bpbasilphx (and everyone else): “That’s not the norm! There’s supposed to be music at Mass! That’s our tradition! That’s how it’s always been done! Every other religion in the world does it! Are you more Catholic than the pope or something? You obviously don’t know what the Mass is about!”

[edit: I think most potential converts would have shirked away at that point]

Yes, my interest in the church was based on a misconception. I experienced this head on a few years back when I went to a retreat that was completely indistinguishable in worship style from anything I had done as a Protestant. When I talked to my priest about this later on, he explained that there are different cultures in the Church, some which focus on traditional music, some on new music, some on silence, etc. but all are acceptable."

Now, if I went to far in pushing my preferences on those of you here, I’m sorry. But all of this started with me saying that I didn’t like the fact that the Gospel was chanted. And I told you my reasons why I felt that way, then you reacted as if I said that the Mass is a cannibalistic feast! But my preference is well within the bounds of what is and is not acceptable.

 

[jmcrae]

Oddly enough, the other posts are not here now. I guess the mods deleted them.

I don’t remember everything I said.

In regards to the first point, it was a comment more on basil’s attitude.

Here is how I imagine our meeting would have gone?

Me: “Wow! I went to my first Catholic Mass today! I was amazed at how reverent and silent the service was. There was no music that tried to manipulate our emotions, and all the Scripture was read in a plain voice so that we could actually hear, understand it, and reflect on it.”

bpbasilphx (and everyone else): “That’s not the norm! There’s supposed to be music at Mass! That’s our tradition! That’s how it’s always been done! Every other religion in the world does it! Are you more Catholic than the pope or something? You obviously don’t know what the Mass is about!”

[edit: I think most potential converts would have shirked away at that point]

Perhaps, for a time. But if the Holy Spirit is with them, they will still feel the irresistable pull to the Church. It is, after all, the Holy Spirit who converts us to the Catholic Church; not its members.

Yes, my interest in the church was based on a misconception. I experienced this head on a few years back when I went to a retreat that was completely indistinguishable in worship style from anything I had done as a Protestant. When I talked to my priest about this later on, he explained that there are different cultures in the Church, some which focus on traditional music, some on new music, some on silence, etc. but all are acceptable."

This is very true. It’s one of the great things about the Church, is that it is able to accommodate every culture and every mode of self-expression. That’s part of what makes it “Catholic” (universal).

Now, if I went to far in pushing my preferences on those of you here, I’m sorry. But all of this started with me saying that I didn’t like the fact that the Gospel was chanted. And I told you my reasons why I felt that way, then you reacted as if I said that the Mass is a cannibalistic feast! But my preference is well within the bounds of what is and is not acceptable.

Well, it seemed like you were calling someone an “abuser” of the Mass who was actually (for once!!) following the actual rubrics of the Mass. We are so often forced to endure real abuses that it is so refreshing to discover someone actually doing it right - and then you went and criticized him for it.

In my own case, I was thinking, NO, NO, NO!! Don’t discourage your priest from doing it right!! Because who knows what he’ll come up with in place of that next year, if he thinks that the congregation doesn’t like him to do things correctly.

I think that’s what was behind the reactions that you got.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

Well, it seemed like you were calling someone an “abuser” of the Mass who was actually (for once!!) following the actual rubrics of the Mass. We are so often forced to endure real abuses that it is so refreshing to discover someone actually doing it right - and then you went and criticized him for it.

In my own case, I was thinking, NO, NO, NO!! Don’t discourage your priest from doing it right!! Because who knows what he’ll come up with in place of that next year, if he thinks that the congregation doesn’t like him to do things correctly.

I think that’s what was behind the reactions that you got.

Well, here is what I actually said:

ABostonCatholic:

I thought not singing the psalms was the norm, and that singing them was an abuse.

I thought it was an egregious abuse. But apparently not.

That’s the only time I said the word abuse.

Anyway, I’m sick of talking about this. If we can agree that, given the options, I can choose a quiet Low Mass (TLM or NO) rather than a Mass with music without being thought of as a lesser Catholic, then great; I’m fine with that

 

[Digitonomy]

In fact, saying holy words in an ordinary speaking voice was totally unheard of in ANY religion until the Latin church invented Low Mass.

I find this unlikely - but my knowledge of other religions is not vast enough to disprove the statement.

bpbasilphx:

Chanting the lessons is the norm in all the Eastern Churches, including those in union with the Roman Church.

I suppose the point depends on what you consider a norm, but I have attended Maronite, Ruthenian, and Romanian liturgies at which the readings were not chanted IIRC. Although I thoroughly enjoy the liturgies where they are chanted.

jmcrae:

It is a concession to our North American weakness that it is permitted to be spoken, or that parts of it can be spoken rather than sung.

Spoken masses are certainly not limited to North America, and I really doubt the adoption of current instructions allowing this were primarily due to the influence of our continent.

 

[jbebeau]

ABostonCatholic:

Sorry to see you getting so beat up about this.

I understand what you are saying, our society is obsessed with music, or more specifically noise. Look at ipods and everything. It’s almost as if people can’t be silent. So at your most intimate moment with God, you want the dine of the world to fade away. And yes, I can see how you can love the Low Mass, the simplicity and silence can lend itself to entering the sacred mysteries so much easier sometimes. I went to the EF for the entire Triduum, which had all the smell and bells and chants, I loved every moment of it; it was like being in heaven. But Sunday morning, and feeling exhausted, going to the 7:15 am, Low Mass, was just as profound.

Anyway, while I understand where you are coming from, I prefer to work to maintain and improve sacred music within our churches, not to just hand all musicover to secular culture. Just my thoughts.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

ABostonCatholic:

Sorry to see you getting so beat up about this.

I understand what you are saying, our society is obsessed with music, or more specifically noise. Look at ipods and everything. It’s almost as if people can’t be silent. So at your most intimate moment with God, you want the dine of the world to fade away. And yes, I can see how you can love the Low Mass, the simplicity and silence can lend itself to entering the sacred mysteries so much easier sometimes. I went to the EF for the entire Triduum, which had all the smell and bells and chants, I loved every moment of it; it was like being in heaven. But Sunday morning, and feeling exhausted, going to the 7:15 am, Low Mass, was just as profound.

Anyway, while I understand where you are coming from, I prefer to work to maintain and improve sacred music within our churches, not to just hand all musicover to secular culture. Just my thoughts.

Thank you

 

[bkovacs]

Some traditions are best to be dispensed with.

**The whole purpose of tradition is to preseve it and pass it on.**What you think is not the mind of the Church. High mass, with the Bishop, several priests, deacons and lesser ministers is the NORM.

Is the Mass going to be a time of pure prayer?

You’re the only one who says that signing detracts from prayer. Not the Church. Not the Fathers. The Mass is NOT the time for one’s personal devotion.

But now we have amplification, so it’s not necessary for that reason.

**Following your reasoning, we shouldn’t have candles either. Do you want to get rid of them, too?

I might add that for years I was choir director and cantor in a large Orthodox Church half the size of a city block. The architecture enhanced natural sound. No artificial amplification was needed.**

But what’s the point of understanding them if we can’t interpret them? Besides, I really don’t think it’s easier to understand

**It’s not the duty of the reader to interpret the scriptures. That’s for the homiy.

Again, what you think is not the mind of the Church.

Deal with it.**

I take it he prefers Protestant Ceremonies?. Where their is no tradition!. Gregorian Chant, incense, candles, reverence, etcc. All 100% Roman Catholic. Check out an Extra Ordinary Form Mass. You will be awe struck at tradition. And traditions are best maintained and passed on to future generations, not dispensed with!. Remember were not. Nor ever will be Protestant or like them. Were members of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The church founded by Christ himself, not by Calvin, or Luther, or Henry VIII, etcc.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

I take it he prefers Protestant Ceremonies?. Where their is no tradition!. Gregorian Chant, incense, candles, reverence, etcc. All 100% Roman Catholic. Check out an Extra Ordinary Form Mass. You will be awe struck at tradition. And traditions are best maintained and passed on to future generations, not dispensed with!. Remember were not. Nor ever will be Protestant or like them. Were members of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The church founded by Christ himself, not by Calvin, or Luther, or Henry VIII, etcc.

Bkovacs, as I said many times before, I became Catholic because I did not like the Protestant services. Read the rest of the thread.