Gossip and Detraction

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Hello folks,

I’m currently trying stop gossiping and speaking ill of those around me. This is an ongoing and surprisingly difficult process. I was wondering if you might be able to help determine what might be sinful and what might not.

These are some situations which I’m currently trying to figure out
  • I’m currently seeing a counselor. He has asked the names of my friends to try and establish a connection. Recently I’ve been trying to distance myself from those friends due to some actions which I disagree with. Would it be permissible to discuss the situations in therapy despite the fact that he now knows the people involved and my comments will not paint them in a positive light?
-I have other friends who occasionally inquire about my present state of happiness. In the course of my conversations am I able to paint people in a less than glowing light? Is it OK to mention how they might be aggravating more or conducting an action that isn’t moral.

-If an individual is very public about particular sin (e.g. pornography) is it OK to mention that he or she indulges in that sin? If anyone were to ask these individuals they would freely admit that they watch porn. Must I wait for an individual to discover that fact for themselves? Does it depend on my intention?

-If I were discuss the fact that that “people around me” were committing a specific to individuals who have no reasonable way of discovering the perpetrators identity would I still be committing a sin?

-Must I always speak positively about an individual? Obviously we should try and be charitable whenever possible but if I’m asked my opinion about someone and it is negative do I lie? Change the subject? Or can I give my honest opinion even if it isn’t flattering.
 
I hope someone far wiser than I am can help you answer your questions. All I can say is that when I first became a Christian the Spirit really convicted me about speaking ill of anyone. I remember leaving the room sometimes when I perceived gossip to be occurring. However, over time, I began to see a lot of gossip in the church, and it became nearly impossible to disassociate myself from it without leaving the church all together, which I certainly didn’t do. Instead, I simply acclimated myself to the situation I was in and became less concerned about gossip. I don’t recommend this course of action. And I guess I could add that we might want to remember Jesus’ words: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

Dan
 
Hi, good for you! This is a hard vice to give up. Talking to your councilor is ok. The other things are harder. Some things to consider:
  • how would you feel if what you said got back to the person?
  • could what you say damage a person’s reputation?
  • what are your motives for sharing these things, is it because it makes you feel important to know these things, and have attention. A trainer who works with my kids is constantly talking about others and I can’t figure out why what he is telling me me is relevant to anything else we talk about. I avoid any conversation because I think it makes HIM look bad more than the people he is talking about.
    -are you genuinely seeking to improve a situation, or just gossiping about someone. For instance i know people who complain and complain about the same people but never do anything different. I dislike talking to them.
    -think about how what you disclose makes you look, does it make you seem
    Ike someone a person can rely on, or does it make you sound judgmental and loose lipped. How would it benefit a conversation?
  • most importantly when in doubt I would stay quiet.
 
I’ve struggled with this. I think it comes from a reliance on creatures–expecting them to act a certain way, and when they inevitably don’t, needing someone else to complain to about it. I think the therapy is ok. Other times try not to use names or be vague and only if it actually needs to be said. I’m working on it.

One time a friend and I were chatting and I was expressing disillusionment about Catholics who end up not really being catholic (don’t practice or believe all the teachings.). I was about to talk about someone in particular, but this time I managed to leave out the name and anything identifying and just say “someone I know.” The next day or so the person in question called me; we hadn’t talked in a while and she had become much more serious about her faith, was complaining herself about cafeteria Catholics, and wanted to spend more time with me and my friends! So that was my wake up call. Thank God I didn’t name names.

At any rate, it’s a fine line I pray to understand. Confiding in someone in desperate situations is one thing. Useless derogatory gossip, like judging someone’s clothes, is obviously bad…it’s the middle ground that is hard.

My question is for wives…I assume you would want to tell your husband everything going on with you, personal things, so how do you avoid gossip?
 
MacBP said:
Hello folks,

I’m currently trying stop gossiping and speaking ill of those around me. This is an ongoing and surprisingly difficult process. I was wondering if you might be able to help determine what might be sinful and what might not.

These are some situations which I’m currently trying to figure out
  • I’m currently seeing a counselor. He has asked the names of my friends to try and establish a connection. Recently I’ve been trying to distance myself from those friends due to some actions which I disagree with. Would it be permissible to discuss the situations in therapy despite the fact that he now knows the people involved and my comments will not paint them in a positive light?
-I have other friends who occasionally inquire about my present state of happiness. In the course of my conversations am I able to paint people in a less than glowing light? Is it OK to mention how they might be aggravating more or conducting an action that isn’t moral.

-If an individual is very public about particular sin (e.g. pornography) is it OK to mention that he or she indulges in that sin? If anyone were to ask these individuals they would freely admit that they watch porn. Must I wait for an individual to discover that fact for themselves? Does it depend on my intention?

-If I were discuss the fact that that “people around me” were committing a specific to individuals who have no reasonable way of discovering the perpetrators identity would I still be committing a sin?

-Must I always speak positively about an individual? Obviously we should try and be charitable whenever possible but if I’m asked my opinion about someone and it is negative do I lie? Change the subject? Or can I give my honest opinion even if it isn’t flattering.
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Good for you to be aware of harmful situations. Participating in gossip is not good for our souls. Gossip is like poisinous venom. It circulates through us and grows more toxic the more we participate in it. We may not think that it is harmful to us, but indeed it is. Remember these words of Scripture:

Psalm 5:9 Not a word from their mouth can be trusted; their heart is filled with destruction. Their throat is an open grave; with their tongue they speak deceit.

Luke 6:45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Bring your desire to stop gossiping to the Lord in prayer. We can only overcome our sinfulness with God’s help. Whenever your tempted to gossip, pretend the person is standing right next to you. Would you still say those things? And remember, practice, practice, practice. Good luck. You are in my prayers.
 
I would think derogatory gossip about a person’s clothes or style
(( such as joking about Donald Trump’s horrific hairstyle – what IS that ?? ))
would be the least sinful form of gossip, LOL.

I think what is sinful is to reveal a person’s private sins, no matter how severe that they
were, if they are not publicly known and especially IF the person is known to you
to be trying to turn their life around. That would not be kind or virtuous at ALL.

But at work, with me, there is a woman who steals you blind, bullies you,
and pretends to be your friend so that she can gain your confidence and then
ROYALLY screw you out of your commission (and hence your RIGHTFUL pay)
and fakes being nice to people, when in fact she is a hateful person all around.
I DELIBERATELY warn people about her, by NAME, to stay clear of her whenever possible
and also about another co-worker who has taken up the habit of sneakily and deliberately
STEALING from his co-workers, and I am not ashamed at all to do so, in fact I would regard it as seriously wrong NOT to do so, for these people, especially her,
are remorseless and malicious.

But any detraction that makes fun of another person’s weaknesses (buck teeth,
pimples, whatever, especially if intended to seriously ridicule the person and cause people to think mockingly of them, when they are decent people) is extremely wrong and should be confessed.
 
Just remember what Thumper’s Dad always told him, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.” If you know someone who is engaging in a particular sin (like porn or adultery etc…) the rest of the world doesn’t have to hear about it from you. It is best to keep one’s negative opinions about others to one’s self; of course you aren’t going to like certain people but why is important to you to tell everybody that? It all comes down to respect for others and treating them the way you would wish to be treated by them. Would you be okay with someone casually talking about what they consider your immoral actions to their friends and people who don’t even know you? One exception would be your counselor, what you tell him is private, won’t be taken out of the room and he can use what you say to help you break this habit. Another exception would be if you have first hand knowledge that a crime is being commited and then it should be reported to law enforcement. Gossip is a bad habit, but once you recognize you are doing it, you can stop and turn your attention to the more cheerful aspects of life. :rolleyes:
 
MacBP said:
Hello folks,

I’m currently trying stop gossiping and speaking ill of those around me. This is an ongoing and surprisingly difficult process. I was wondering if you might be able to help determine what might be sinful and what might not.

These are some situations which I’m currently trying to figure out
  • I’m currently seeing a counselor. He has asked the names of my friends to try and establish a connection. Recently I’ve been trying to distance myself from those friends due to some actions which I disagree with. Would it be permissible to discuss the situations in therapy despite the fact that he now knows the people involved and my comments will not paint them in a positive light?
-I have other friends who occasionally inquire about my present state of happiness. In the course of my conversations am I able to paint people in a less than glowing light? Is it OK to mention how they might be aggravating more or conducting an action that isn’t moral.

-If an individual is very public about particular sin (e.g. pornography) is it OK to mention that he or she indulges in that sin? If anyone were to ask these individuals they would freely admit that they watch porn. Must I wait for an individual to discover that fact for themselves? Does it depend on my intention?

-If I were discuss the fact that that “people around me” were committing a specific to individuals who have no reasonable way of discovering the perpetrators identity would I still be committing a sin?

-Must I always speak positively about an individual? Obviously we should try and be charitable whenever possible but if I’m asked my opinion about someone and it is negative do I lie? Change the subject? Or can I give my honest opinion even if it isn’t flattering.
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CCC 2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:
  • of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
  • of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
  • of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.
CCC 2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.

CCC 2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.
 
Gossip based on assuming something actually happened is bad. If you don’t know for sure then you don’t know. This doesn’t mean you should attempt to ask others to confirm your suspicions by asking questions that might not help things. For example, the result might be: “Why are you asking everyone about Jane? Is there something going on?” Bottom line: If you don’t know, you don’t know.

In those rare cases when someone is acting strangely and you have evidence of stealing at work (because you saw it happen), then you should discreetly go to your boss or immediate superior and report the matter. That will usually mean your boss should collect all of his employees together and tell them: “I’ve spoken to Debbie, and although she didn’t notice it at first, someone took some money from her purse. So, I just want everyone here to be more careful.” If you’ve told the truth and theft continues, leave it to the management to get to the bottom of things.

The adage that “If you don’t have anything good to say about someone, don’t say anything publicly.” is very true. Sure, you can tell a relative you trust, your husband or a therapist, or a trusted friend, that so and so is really getting on my nerves because [fill in the blank]. We’re all not perfect and we should encourage each other to try to focus on a solution and not on our anger or annoyance.

Be careful of others around you who think that explaining, in excruciating detail, all the faults of the people they know is always a good thing. And when they ask for your confirmation, answer honestly. If you don’t know any of these people, offer some positive advice. I had to take the somewhat drastic action of speaking much, much less to an old friend because he would go on and on and on about every little thing that was not going his way in his life. In other words, he wanted reality to conform to him, and what he wanted. I finally had to tell him, politely, that he was always so negative that it was affecting me emotionally. But I saw him at an event recently and we caught up on things without much of the negativity. He knows I still like him.

One of my close friends, who recently converted from Methodist to Catholic, told me about the gossip where she works. When I asked her how she dealt with it, she said, “I just don’t involve myself with those conversations.” It’s apparent who the gossips are and she is polite to all, but chooses not to add to the gossip-fest.

At my former job, I knew this very nice and very sweet lady. She worked in a department that had some gossip going on. But she told me her secret: she did her job well, she was polite to everybody, and when attempts were made to pull her into the gossip circle, she just told people she wasn’t interested in hearing it.

Once you realize what other people’s triggers are, you can offer polite answers. For example, “You never comment on my clothes.” From those who are a bit obsessed with fashion. Possible responses are: “Well, your body type is different from mine and the clothes you wear wouldn’t suit me.” If they press you further - just a thought - as long as they look nice, just say, “You look nice.” The end.

Different people are - well - different. What doesn’t matter to you, may mean a great deal to the other person.

Unless you know for a fact that someone is cheating on their wife, involved in criminal activity or is dishonest, don’t overreact. Talk to someone you trust and find the right approach to the situation.

Hope this helps,
Ed
 
“If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all” is very nice-sounding,
and a nice ideal, but would be impossible to live out in practice.
Especially if you are dealing with a malicious and wicked person.

By the way, the wicked person at work screwed me over AGAIN, today,
at least once, that I know of. On purpose. I know, because she watches everything like a hawk (I have 10 months of experience of her tricks, stealing and malice, so I know how she acts and is constantly scheming, so I am not wrong about this).

If she is screwing me like this, she is screwing her other co-workers out of their rightful pay, and they have the right to be warned, and I am warning them, bluntly, and I am committing no sin. This woman, even if she is never prosecuted (and I pray she isn’t , just invited to go work somewhere else for everyone’s peace of mind and financial security),
even if she is never charged with anything, is in fact a habitual criminal. Stealing from your co-workers, on purpose, is theft and is therefore criminal, and she does this habitually and people have a right to know it. If she hasn’t screwed over a particular person YET, rest assured, she is GOING TO the first chance she gets. And she will do so, as she always does, with the utmost arrogance and without the slightest remorse.
I do not mean that this woman has committed acts of theft in the past, is sorry or even partly sorry for them, and striving to avoid such things now. I mean that she is STILL doing them, without remorse, and feels that nobody has any right to get in her way or expect her to follow any rules and woe betide anyone who opposes her almighty will.
She needs to be stopped. She is NOT going to repent voluntarily.
So I am now praying, specifically, that God do something to STOP HER and STOP
her ENABLERS. That kind of prayer is not sinful, either. To FAIL to pray such prayers is, ipso facto, to therefore actually PRAY that she continue her thieving and bullying and psychopathic behavior unabated to the great detriment of myself and other hard working co-workers. And THAT is SINFUL.

It is not sin, not at all, not one iota, to expose that fact and to report it as often as you know it happens. It would be evil NOT TO.
Some acts of detraction are necessary, and the remorseless evil person
has MADE them so.

In 25 years of work, I never went around gossiping about co-workers, even those with faults as serious or more so than mine. Some gossip? I’m sure I did, for which I am repentant very much so, but really exposing a person for this kind of thing? NEVER.
And I never had just cause to either. This person REALLY takes the proverbial Cake.
You don’t know what hell-on-earth IS, until you’ve dealt with a person who can
best be described as a Sociopath. And any psychiatrist with an ounce of knowledge
will agree with what I have just said 100%.

Despite the above comments, I enjoyed EdWest’s post very much.
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
“If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all” is very nice-sounding,
and a nice ideal, but would be impossible to live out in practice.
Especially if you are dealing with a malicious and wicked person.

By the way, the wicked person at work screwed me over AGAIN, today,
at least once, that I know of. On purpose. I know, because she watches everything like a hawk (I have 10 months of experience of her tricks, stealing and malice, so I know how she acts and is constantly scheming, so I am not wrong about this).

If she is screwing me like this, she is screwing her other co-workers out of their rightful pay, and they have the right to be warned, and I am warning them, bluntly, and I am committing no sin. This woman, even if she is never prosecuted (and I pray she isn’t , just invited to go work somewhere else for everyone’s peace of mind and financial security),
even if she is never charged with anything, is in fact a habitual criminal. Stealing from your co-workers, on purpose, is theft and is therefore criminal, and she does this habitually and people have a right to know it. If she hasn’t screwed over a particular person YET, rest assured, she is GOING TO the first chance she gets. And she will do so, as she always does, with the utmost arrogance and without the slightest remorse.
I do not mean that this woman has committed acts of theft in the past, is sorry or even partly sorry for them, and striving to avoid such things now. I mean that she is STILL doing them, without remorse, and feels that nobody has any right to get in her way or expect her to follow any rules and woe betide anyone who opposes her almighty will.
She needs to be stopped. She is NOT going to repent voluntarily.
So I am now praying, specifically, that God do something to STOP HER and STOP
her ENABLERS. That kind of prayer is not sinful, either. To FAIL to pray such prayers is, ipso facto, to therefore actually PRAY that she continue her thieving and bullying and psychopathic behavior unabated to the great detriment of myself and other hard working co-workers. And THAT is SINFUL.

It is not sin, not at all, not one iota, to expose that fact and to report it as often as you know it happens. It would be evil NOT TO.
Some acts of detraction are necessary, and the remorseless evil person
has MADE them so.

In 25 years of work, I never went around gossiping about co-workers, even those with faults as serious or more so than mine. Some gossip? I’m sure I did, for which I am repentant very much so, but really exposing a person for this kind of thing? NEVER.
And I never had just cause to either. This person REALLY takes the proverbial Cake.
You don’t know what hell-on-earth IS, until you’ve dealt with a person who can
best be described as a Sociopath. And any psychiatrist with an ounce of knowledge
will agree with what I have just said 100%.
Click to expand...
If you have proof this person is stealing then you report it. If it is true then she would be fired and likely prosecuted. What she does wherever else she goes is not your problem.
In my opinion it is a problem not reporting something like this because I would construe that as cooperating in her crime.
 
**If you have proof this person is stealing then you report it. If it is true then she would be fired and likely prosecuted. What she does wherever else she goes is not your problem.
In my opinion it is a problem not reporting something like this because I would construe that as cooperating in her crime. **

Hi thistle,
thank you so very much for your comments above.

It is true, and has been reported for 10 months (actually, people
have been reporting her vile behavior for nearly two years, but 10 months
since she was brought into OUR department, ruining the atmosphere).

For some reason, she has not been terminated. They seem to feel,
and some have let it slip, that in a commission-sales environment,
an employee STEALING another employee’s wages via bullying them out of their
sale, is “to be expected” and not stealing.
It is stealing, not aggressive selling, but stealing, and their rationalization of her
wicked behavior is despicable and diabolical and based only on the fact
that they are getting profits from her abominable actions.

They wouldn’t feel that way if the $100 commission she steals from me (alone) at a pop,
were instead taken out of their cash register drawer.
Then they WOULD have her prosecuted, you can count on it.
The hypocrites.

A person who robs his or her co-workers habitually (and she does), who bullies them (which is illegal harassment), who has made threats of bodily harm - loudly - against those she heard had reported her (which is a Federal Offense and considered “workplace terrorism” by the Federal Government, and she has done this in the past and should have been terminated for THAT ALONE), anyway, a person who does all these things, and more, will DEFINITELY, and probably already is, stealing from the Company directly albeit, as she is very clever, probably stealthily. And, a person who robs co-workers who are working to make their daily bread, is 10,000 times worse, from the angle of proportionality, than someone who stole 100,000 from a trillionaire. Both are WRONG ACTS, but the trillionaire won’t lose his electricity or be thrown out in the street from the loss. We co-workers are being robbed of our ability to support ourselves, our families, our bills, our church. This is ESPECIALLY evil and disgusting. This is depriving the worker of his just wages, it is thus a Sin That Cries To Heaven For Vengeance, on her part and on the part of her knowing enablers.

I do not want her arrested, I want her to repent and STOP IT.
To wish her to be arrested, I would have to wish ALL mortal sinners to be
arrested for their mortal sins (which in God’s eyes deserve DEATH, not mere arrest)
or worse. That is not my wish. I want her to repent and be saved.
But I also, because she will not stop this, I want her OUT OF my life completely until she DOES repent, if she will ever respond to God’s grace.
As for her arrest, that is up to God. If He knows that that is the only way to bring her to her senses, or to protect needy co-workers from her malice, then he may just see to it that that, in fact, happens to her, and it will be entirely her own fault.

So I agree 98.9% with your comments, but I don’t want her prosecuted if that can be avoided (as a mercy to her).
But asking God to help us get her out of the company and out of our lives, this
truly extremely=malicious (word that rhymes with Witch)? Yes, definitely. And how dare such a hateful and belligerent, thieving person claim to be a Catholic??? Which she does, and that is very embarassing.
 
Thanks for the comments everyone. As I later reflected on this post I can see that most of the scenario’s I mentioned in my OP were best served by not speaking at all. I do have another situation which I would appreciate (name removed by moderator)ut.

I administered some fraternal correction to a friend of mine. After I did so I was concerned what effects doing so might have on our relationship and so I decided to confide the situation to my friend. I was careful not mention the specific details of what had transpired but in the course of the conversation it was clear that the corectee had done wrong and the very general nature of the correction was revealed. During the course of the conversation I made a deliberate effort to try and maintain the corectee’s reputation with my confident; however, I do not know that it was effective.

Since detraction was the aim but was instead a side effect would this still be mortal? Especially when its considered that in the immediate aftermath I tried to make reparations. Would the law of double effect cover this?

It’s situations like this that make me wonder if I’m scrupulous or just developing a better conscience…
 
Thistle posted the relevant portion of the Catechism, but I just wanted to particularly highlight this line:
  • of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
Of course, this implies that a person can disclose another’s fault if there is an “objectively valid reason” to do so. And if there is an objectively valid reason, it’s not detraction.

I think there is a big difference between standing around the water cooler whispering, “So did you hear about what So-And-So did!?” and confiding in a trusted friend about a difficult situation in order to receive useful feedback and advice, even if it paints another person in a negative light. Of course, we need to do our best to speak honestly and not divulge things that don’t need to be divulged. Just do the best you can to only divulge what truly needs to be divulged in order for your friend to get an accurate sense of what is going on. You may find that names are not even necessary.
 
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