Got Milk? Got Ethics?

[Mary_Gail_36]

I responded at length in another thread having the same subject, so I won’t repeat verbatim here what I said there.

First, I will admit that I don’t know for sure why those New York dairymen keep their cattle indoors all the time. Perhaps there are climatic reasons for that. In my area there are lots of dairy operations and not one keeps the animals indoors. It’s more expensive and more work to do that. But there may be good reasons, like proximity to markets in an inclement climate.

Second, while I think the guy who hit the cow on the head with a wrench was out of line (I would have fired him for it in principle because it shows how stupid he is.), it has to be recognized that the cow almost certainly reacted to the “startle” of it, rather than pain per se. I achieve exactly the same result by simply cracking a whip a few inches from the animal’s face or backside. But that’s not the real point. Cattle in a field under the most ideal conditions butt each other head-on all the time. It’s part of their “pecking order” thing. Picture two 1,000+ pound animals smacking head-on at full tilt and showing no ill effects from it at all, and you quickly realize that’s a lot more force than that guy could possibly deliver with the wrench or whatever he had. Up the scale a bit and make it two 2,000 pound horned bulls. The force of just one of them would break every bone in a human body and rupture every internal organ. I have seen bulls do it and then proceed to munch grass or keep at it as if it did not affect them at all. I have seen bulls tear up steel pipe gates with their heads just to get at cows in the next pasture. We can’t project onto animals what we, ourselves would experience.

Third, perhaps the most stupid thing in the clip (I didn’t see the whole program. I don’t care to watch propaganda films as a general rule.) is the comment that the poor cows are “kept perpetually pregnant”. Well, yes. Cows become fertile again about 30-60 days after their calves are born. In an open, idyllic field, if there’s a bull in the herd, the cow inevitably becomes pregnant again that quickly if she’s healthy. Their gestation period is about the same as that of humans. That’s the way it is with animals. Almost all female mammals, wild or domestic, are pregnant most of the time unless (as with our pets) people prevent it. That’s how they replenish the species. They need to, because their lives are short relative to ours, and their survival rate in a natural state is much lower than ours. Just because humans don’t want to be pregnant most of the time does not inform us that animals hate it or even know about it. Just because Diane Sawyer thinks Planned Parenthood and public funding of abortion are the marvels of the age, that does not mean animals share the sentiment.

I’ve driven through Upstate New York various times. I often see fields with cows. I also know it gets really cold and snowy in upstate New York, so I guess it’s a good idea to put them indoors when it was cold.

My Dad was a dairy farmer in Sicily. Even there, on cold winter days, cows went inside.

 

[Marfran]

Allow me to paraphrase what I am reading here…

Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good feeling now.

No, vz71, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the animals do not care about our intellectual theories, etc. They only want to stretch their legs and move about freely in the sun, and we deprive them of this because we are selfish and are motivated by the dollar. I shouldn’t say “we.” I mean the big corporations.

 

[Marfran]

I’ve driven through Upstate New York various times. I often see fields with cows. I also know it gets really cold and snowy in upstate New York, so I guess it’s a good idea to put them indoors when it was cold.

My Dad was a dairy farmer in Sicily. Even there, on cold winter days, cows went inside.

Mary, when was your Dad a farmer??? Things have changed, and in the United States TODAY, things are really different on “factory farms.” I’ll bet your Dad didn’t run a “factory farm.” And you already said that he let his dairy cows outside.

I saw an article on a farm in Wisconsin–I’ll have to see if I can find it online. The dairy wanted to expand, and the citizens all fought the expansion, but permission was given for this dairy farm to increase operations by the town it was located in.

The cows live exclusively indoors year around, and NEVER see the light of day. They are not even given hay or any bedding. The floors are covered with sand, because it is easier for ther humans to keep clean.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’ve driven through Upstate New York various times. I often see fields with cows. I also know it gets really cold and snowy in upstate New York, so I guess it’s a good idea to put them indoors when it was cold.

My Dad was a dairy farmer in Sicily. Even there, on cold winter days, cows went inside.

In the other thread, a Canadian fellow whose family has a dairy operation told me dairy cattle are more sensitive to extreme cold than are beef cattle. My personal experience of cattle-raising is with beef cattle only, so I had (and have) no reason to question or doubt what he said or what your father did. I’m sure they’re right.

I only know that in the region in which I live, British beef breeds like Herefords or Angus never need to be in barns.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Mary, when was your Dad a farmer??? Things have changed, and in the United States TODAY, things are really different on “factory farms.” I’ll bet your Dad didn’t run a “factory farm.” And you already said that he let his dairy cows outside.

I saw an article on a farm in Wisconsin–I’ll have to see if I can find it online. The dairy wanted to expand, and the citizens all fought the expansion, but permission was given for this dairy farm to increase operations by the town it was located in.

The cows live exclusively indoors year around, and NEVER see the light of day. They are not even given hay or any bedding. The floors are covered with sand, because it is easier for ther humans to keep clean.

Well the gentleman who bought the farm land bought it for his cows to use. He has a cheese making business. Cows are free to roam and eat the grass. In the winter, when it’s cold, they go inside. Maybe a month or 2.

 

[Marfran]

Well the gentleman who bought the farm land bought it for his cows to use. He has a cheese making business. Cows are free to roam and eat the grass. In the winter, when it’s cold, they go inside. Maybe a month or 2.

Cows are free to roam and eat the grass!!! Sounds like heaven (for cows)!!! Well, that’s not a description of a “factory farm.” Smaller scale operations often do let their cows have time in the pasture. It’s the large scale corporate farms that all the fuss is about.

 

[vz71]

No, vz71, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the animals do not care about our intellectual theories, etc.

OK, I can agree with you on that point.
Animals do not have these cares.

They only want to stretch their legs and move about freely in the sun,

I am not certain there is a human qualified to judge the thoughts of an animal.
We may decide what we may want in the situation, but I have serious doubts that we can know with any real certainty the wants and or desires of any animal…assuming they even have wants and desires.

and we deprive them of this because we are selfish and are motivated by the dollar. I shouldn’t say “we.” I mean the big corporations.

And not even all big corporations, but this one specifically, while the camera crew was there.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Mary, when was your Dad a farmer??? Things have changed, and in the United States TODAY, things are really different on “factory farms.” I’ll bet your Dad didn’t run a “factory farm.” And you already said that he let his dairy cows outside.

I saw an article on a farm in Wisconsin–I’ll have to see if I can find it online. The dairy wanted to expand, and the citizens all fought the expansion, but permission was given for this dairy farm to increase operations by the town it was located in.

The cows live exclusively indoors year around, and NEVER see the light of day. They are not even given hay or any bedding. The floors are covered with sand, because it is easier for ther humans to keep clean.

I’m not entirely certain what the difference is between a “great big farm” and a “factory farm”, if there is any.

I don’t think we really know what cattle consider “good circumstances” versus “bad circumstances” except at the extremes of the latter. Perhaps they prefer walking on straw or rice hulls to walking on sand. Perhaps they prefer laying down in sawdust to laying down in sand. But I don’t think we know. I certainly don’t. We do know that regardless of the conditions in which they live, they’re up and down constantly throughout a 24 hour period. It’s roughly predictable, but not entirely. They alternate eating with laying down over and over again. I have not made a study of it, but I do know they’re up eating a good part of the night as well as during the day. It’s just how they are, and probably relates to the way their stomachs work more than anything else. They don’t “sleep” the way we do, either.

From my observation, their choice of places to lay down are not consistent, and probably have more to do with their body temperatures than with anything else. Larger cattle tend to just plop down anywhere, even when it’s very cold. Smaller ones tend to find a place where there is more insulation between their bodies and the ground. Cattle have big, compact bodies with heat-generating fermentation and a lot of muscular action going on in their digestive tracts. If they get the right kind of food, they generate an enormous amount of heat. That’s brought home dramatically when, for example, you see steam pouring off their backs during a rain or snow storm. For large cattle, it might just be that the sand, which would tend to dissipate heat, is more comfortable than, say, straw, that would not.
I’m not saying it is, but it could be. I have seen cattle lay down on bare ground, gravel, or even a muddy spot when there was a nice grassy place nearby, so it could be.

Again, I think we need to be cautious about making assumptions concerning animal comfort. Oftentimes those who raise animals understand what makes them more or less comfortable better than those who don’t, and only have their own comfort experiences to go by.

I’m not entirely sure the “confined” milk cows never see the light of day. Maybe not, but I’ll bet daylight comes into the barns from either the sides or those translucent “skylight” panels you can insert into metal roofs. I have seen barns with those. But it wouldn’t make sense to purposely keep them in the dark, because it would not be efficient, notwithstanding that cattle in an open field will get up and graze in total darkness every night of the world. Even in the clip, there is quite a bit of light coming from somewhere or other; a lot more than cattle have even on a moonlit night.

Granted, if they’re indoors all the time they don’t get to admire the scenery. But to tell the truth, I have seen thousands of cattle in my time, and I have never seen one do anything that made me think any of them cared anything about the environment except “there’s food here-there’s not food here”, “there’s water here-there’s no water there”, “here’s that guy that brings things I eat” (even if it’s the wrong guy, and he isn’t bringing anything), “this cow is in heat”, “that’s my calf and something strange is near it, attack!”, “that’s not my calf, I don’t care what happens to it” “there’s another bull and there are cows in heat…charge!” “there are no other cattle around…panic”.

That’s pretty close to the sum and total of their lives, no matter where they are. As little as my posts might make it seem so, I really do like cattle. But I don’t attribute to them things that I would attribute to a human being, because they’re very different.

 

[Marfran]

I’m not entirely certain what the difference is between a “great big farm” and a “factory farm”, if there is any.

I don’t think we really know what cattle consider “good circumstances” versus “bad circumstances” except at the extremes of the latter. Perhaps they prefer walking on straw or rice hulls to walking on sand. Perhaps they prefer laying down in sawdust to laying down in sand. But I don’t think we know. I certainly don’t. We do know that regardless of the conditions in which they live, they’re up and down constantly throughout a 24 hour period. It’s roughly predictable, but not entirely. They alternate eating with laying down over and over again. I have not made a study of it, but I do know they’re up eating a good part of the night as well as during the day. It’s just how they are, and probably relates to the way their stomachs work more than anything else. They don’t “sleep” the way we do, either.

From my observation, their choice of places to lay down are not consistent, and probably have more to do with their body temperatures than with anything else. Larger cattle tend to just plop down anywhere, even when it’s very cold. Smaller ones tend to find a place where there is more insulation between their bodies and the ground. Cattle have big, compact bodies with heat-generating fermentation and a lot of muscular action going on in their digestive tracts. If they get the right kind of food, they generate an enormous amount of heat. That’s brought home dramatically when, for example, you see steam pouring off their backs during a rain or snow storm. For large cattle, it might just be that the sand, which would tend to dissipate heat, is more comfortable than, say, straw, that would not.
I’m not saying it is, but it could be. I have seen cattle lay down on bare ground, gravel, or even a muddy spot when there was a nice grassy place nearby, so it could be.

Again, I think we need to be cautious about making assumptions concerning animal comfort. Oftentimes those who raise animals understand what makes them more or less comfortable better than those who don’t, and only have their own comfort experiences to go by.

I’m not entirely sure the “confined” milk cows never see the light of day. Maybe not, but I’ll bet daylight comes into the barns from either the sides or those translucent “skylight” panels you can insert into metal roofs. I have seen barns with those. But it wouldn’t make sense to purposely keep them in the dark, because it would not be efficient, notwithstanding that cattle in an open field will get up and graze in total darkness every night of the world. Even in the clip, there is quite a bit of light coming from somewhere or other; a lot more than cattle have even on a moonlit night.

Granted, if they’re indoors all the time they don’t get to admire the scenery. But to tell the truth, I have seen thousands of cattle in my time, and I have never seen one do anything that made me think any of them cared anything about the environment except “there’s food here-there’s not food here”, “there’s water here-there’s no water there”, “here’s that guy that brings things I eat” (even if it’s the wrong guy, and he isn’t bringing anything), “this cow is in heat”, “that’s my calf and something strange is near it, attack!”, “that’s not my calf, I don’t care what happens to it” “there’s another bull and there are cows in heat…charge!” “there are no other cattle around…panic”.

That’s pretty close to the sum and total of their lives, no matter where they are. As little as my posts might make it seem so, I really do like cattle. But I don’t attribute to them things that I would attribute to a human being, because they’re very different.

Ridgerunner: I always like your posts and it’s obvious that you are a conscientious cattleman and that you don’t treat your animals as machines, and that they are grass fed and get to experience the outdoors and move around as God intended.

I have often heard it said that when a person chooses to change their diet for ethical reasons, and wants to gradually ease into animal-free eating, the first place to start is not by eliminating meat, but by eliminating dairy and eggs because these two groups of animals receive the “worst” treatment. It is also said that the “beef” cattle are the best treated animals in the agri-business industry (the steak animals–not the hamburger).

In regards to your statement: From my observation, their choice of places to lay down are not consistent… If an animal is confined to a stall, it doesn’t have any choice on where to lie down, and confining any animal for long periods of time to one tiny spot is not humane, is it? Doing it to a dog or a cat would not be humane…and is a cow any different??? A cow I imagine is probably slightly less adept at algebraic equations than say a dog, but I still believe that it is cognizant of its environment and is capable of feeling pain and discomfort and frustration.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ridgerunner: I always like your posts and it’s obvious that you are a conscientious cattleman and that you don’t treat your animals as machines, and that they are grass fed and get to experience the outdoors and move around as God intended.

I have often heard it said that when a person chooses to change their diet for ethical reasons, and wants to gradually ease into animal-free eating, the first place to start is not by eliminating meat, but by eliminating dairy and eggs because these two groups of animals receive the “worst” treatment. It is also said that the “beef” cattle are the best treated animals in the agri-business industry (the steak animals–not the hamburger).

In regards to your statement: From my observation, their choice of places to lay down are not consistent… If an animal is confined to a stall, it doesn’t have any choice on where to lie down, and confining any animal for long periods of time to one tiny spot is not humane, is it? Doing it to a dog or a cat would not be humane…and is a cow any different??? A cow I imagine is probably slightly less adept at algebraic equations than say a dog, but I still believe that it is cognizant of its environment and is capable of feeling pain and discomfort and frustration.

I have no objection to anyone refusing to eat meat, milk or eggs for what they feel are ethical reasons. I do have a problem with propaganda films that make people question their food sources for reasons that don’t hold water.

It’s possible, I guess, that the people who have the NY dairy keep the cows in stalls day and night. But I see no evidence of that in the film clip, and it would be stupid besides.
As I admitted, I am not a dairyman and never have been. But I have been in dairy facilities. Cattle are pretty easily trainable for some kinds of things. They learn when “milking time” is and will line up at the milk parlor door, in exactly the same order, day after day. They know when and how to exit the parlor. They know when and where they will be fed. Now, since this is an indoor facility, then obviously they are fed indoors. Indeed, the film shows that. Cattle will “take their place” in stanchions too, based on some kind of “pecking order” they perceive, and will go to the same one, time after time. The purpose of stanchions is to prevent cattle from butting each other away from the food (they’re greedy in the same way dogs are) and to keep them from trampling, urinating or defecating on their own food, which they will do if not prevented. I didn’t see any means of locking the cattle into those stanchions, wherefore I assume they can back out of them and leave at their leisure. They do show cows walking around outside of them, so I think it’s pretty plain that they’re not “locked in” to a stall. The only part that sort of looks like it is the milking area itself. Sometimes dairy farmers will put “gates” behind each cow, but only during the milking, which only lasts a few minutes. Some dairymen don’t do that, but they run some additional risk of injury to themselves if they don’t. It would be extraordinarily stupid to lock them in. First of all, one would be taking one’s life in one’s hands in trying to clean the stall. And surely any dairyman would know that he’s asking for foot problems if the cattle can’t move around. Commercial milk is checked for the presence of antibiotics and if a cow got an infected foot, she’s off the production line.

They never explain why a cow here or there is “down”. Sometime that happens. Sometimes a cow gets sick or even dies for reasons nobody saw coming, just like people do. But if one gets down completely on its side, you have to get them up pretty quickly. Sometimes they lay down like that for no reason you can tell. They aren’t very smart, and their digestive systems go bad if they lay flat very long. So you have to get them up if you can. Normally, they won’t stay down, but you don’t want to take chances if you don’t have to. If one is down and you want it up, you do exactly what’s shown on the film. You pull back and up on the tail. You couldn’t possibly lift them. Doing that triggers a natural reflex on the part of the cow to get up itself. With horses you pull forward and up by the mane. That’s because it’s natural for cattle to get up back feet first, but with horses it’s front feet first. Supposedly there is a primeval reason for that, but I won’t go into it here.

Personally, I wouldn’t want to be a dairyman. It’s very hard work, far more exacting in the care given to the cattle than is the case with beef production. It takes a lot of capital investment. It’s smellier by far because of the grain given to the milk cows. And it’s economically much riskier. You’re regulated to within an inch of your life by numerous governmental acronym organizations. You can’t go on vacation, and you have to work sick when you get sick. My hat’s off to those guys. And to those pampered TV propagandists who will, it seems, resort to any deception to make a working entrepreneur look bad and create some public alarm where there is no justification for it, I donate a heartfelt bronx cheer.

 

[Marfran]

And to those pampered TV propagandists who will, it seems, resort to any deception to make a working entrepreneur look bad and create some public alarm where there is no justification for it, I donate a heartfelt bronx cheer.

So even though this is a journalistic news piece shown on the national news, you think it is a piece of propoganda?

What motivation do journalists have to make working entrepeneurs look bad??? Is there no journalistic integrety? Should we not even turn on the nightly news???

 

[Ridgerunner]

So even though this is a journalistic news piece shown on the national news, you think it is a piece of propoganda?

What motivation do journalists have to make working entrepeneurs look bad??? Is there no journalistic integrety? Should we not even turn on the nightly news???

Re Question #1: Absolutely.

Re Question #2: Ideology and vanity.

Re Question #3: Some, but not a whole lot nowadays.

Re Question #4: Oh, sure, taking the precaution, of course, of installing a windshield wiper on our TV screens. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself.)

 

[vz71]

Should we not even turn on the nightly news???

I wouldn’t.
But if you do, you may want to have a big sign on the wall next to the television to remind you…
“This journalist has an agenda that may not serve your best interests.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I wouldn’t.
But if you do, you may want to have a big sign on the wall next to the television to remind you…
“This journalist has an agenda that may not serve your best interests.”

Or in the case of those with the same agenda it can be used to serve their interests in just this way, pointing out that it is a national newscast so how could be wrong?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Cows are free to roam and eat the grass!!! Sounds like heaven (for cows)!!! Well, that’s not a description of a “factory farm.” Smaller scale operations often do let their cows have time in the pasture. It’s the large scale corporate farms that all the fuss is about.

It seems as if the OP has changed the subject of the thread to the Ethics of factory farming.

The OP is generalizing that all dairy farms are factory farms because of one proven incident captured on film.

No one is arguing that illegal animal cruelty should be legal.

Is there a point given that the underlying purpose of the thread “animal cruelty” is something that wrong and should be wrong and is punishable by law both God’s and mans.

I as a milk consumer don’t put a gun to factory farmer head and tell them to beat dairy cows for fun. His sin is his own.

I as a consumer must assume that, until proven otherwise, my milk producers treat their herds with dignity. Just like I assume that someone that claims to be vegan, really is.

 

[Sair]

Practically speaking, rights mean nothing unless they are acknowledged and recognised in law. That doesn’t mean these rights do not exist in theory - in terms of our ability to understand the needs of our fellow sentient beings.

Let us take, for example, the rights of women in Saudi Arabia - they are pretty much nonexistent, except for the fact that international bodies exist who recognise universal human rights.

By the same token, the fact that many people in the West don’t recognise the basic rights of other animals - the rights to live free from exploitation and commodification, the rights to pursue their natural inclinations and to be spared unnecessary suffering - does not mean that these rights do not, in theory, exist.

The mere fact that humans can make moral judgements based upon knowledge and experience forms the basis upon which we make laws that enshrine the rights of those who might otherwise be exploited by the mighty. There is no actual reason we should ignore the basic rights of other animals - other than our own greed and intellectual immobility.

 

[vz71]

By the same token, the fact that many people in the West don’t recognise the basic rights of other animals - the rights to live free from exploitation and commodification, the rights to pursue their natural inclinations and to be spared unnecessary suffering - does not mean that these rights do not, in theory, exist.

You need to define the term some here.
Commodification can mean many things. Some of these definitions make this right you speak of completely false and incompatible with Catholic teaching.

Please be more specific.

I would hate to prove the case that these rights you speak of are a myth only to have the definition changed after the fact.

 

[Ridgerunner]

By the same token, the fact that many people in the West don’t recognise the basic rights of other animals - the rights to pursue their natural inclinations

What do you think their natural inclinations are? Go ahead and start with the natural inclinations of cattle, if you would.

 

[masha]

I don’t think animals have “rights” - because “right” is essentially a contractual term and animals are not the sort of creatures who are able to enter into contracts. But, animals are God’s creatures, and as such they possess an inherent dignity, and when we fail to treat them as creatures of dignity - creatures who belong to God and who are under our stewardship, then we do fail in an ethical sense.

Because animals don’t have the same mental and spiritual capacity, and because domesticated animals are so completely in our power, our treatment of them reflects on us. When we abuse animals, or allow the to be abused for our own benefit, we are displaying our own sad lack of empathy.

I don’t think there can be a discussion about the dairy industry without discussing factory farming, because so much of the dairy industry is “factory” style milk production. Factory farming is where most of the issues relating to animal treatment & food production come from. The animals are treated as machines, not as creatures.

Blessings,
Masha

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I don’t think there can be a discussion about the dairy industry without discussing factory farming, because so much of the dairy industry is “factory” style milk production. Factory farming is where most of the issues relating to animal treatment & food production come from. The animals are treated as machines, not as creatures.

I disagree. Using the term “factory farming” and then lumpping all large production farms into this term and saying that “factory farming” treats the animals as machines is a gross over generalization.

Not all large producers act in the manner you state or are shown in the various videos that are put out there. All the videos prove is that the one producer that is in the video works in this way when the video was taken.

There have been shows on networks like TLC that show large producers who do not treat their animals as “machines”.