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Crescentinus
Guest
I think that part of the war against wealth is the Occupy Movements. They at least seem to antagonize those who disagree with them and have more money than them.
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septimine
Guest
I’m not talking about socialism – I’m talking about Christians and private charities doing those kinds of things that we’ve ceded to the government. The government is only needed because nothing else is there. At least not on the scale required to replace the welfare programs. I don’t think socialism is a good thing, but it came to be because the churches were not taking care of the poor.
There’s sort of a false “religion” if you like around the government. The idea is of course that any time “the people” act, that it means government. It’s not true. The government is a tool of the people, it is not the people. The people can use a different tool to fix these problems – but unless we deal with the issues, I think we’re going to create chaos by pulling the rug out from under the people stuck on welfare. It’s not reasonable to replace welfare with nothing. We should replace welfare with a system of private and religious charities, but I don’t think we should throw millions of welfare recipients out on the streets with no hope and no skills and no way to get what they need to survive.
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ACCT
Guest
My friends,
In the last week or two, I have heard frequently from you that the current financial mess has been caused by the failures of free markets and deregulation. I have heard from you that the lust after profits, any profits, that is central to free markets is at the core of our problems. And I have heard from you that only significant government intervention into financial markets can cure these problems, perhaps once and for all. I ask of you for the next few minutes to, in the words of Oliver Cromwell, consider that you may be mistaken. Consider that both the diagnosis and the cure might be equally mistaken.
Consider instead that the problems of this mess were caused by the very kinds of government regulation that you now propose. Consider instead that effects of the profit motive that you decry depend upon the incentives that institutions, regulations, and policies create, which in this case led profit-seekers to do great damage. Consider instead that the regulations that may have been the cause were supported by, as they have often been throughout US history, the very firms being regulated, mostly because they worked to said firms’ benefit, even as they screwed the rest of us. Consider all of this as you ask for more of the same in the name of fixing the problem. And finally, consider why you would ever imagine that those with wealth and power wouldn’t rig a new regulatory process in their favor.
One of the biggest confusions in the current mess is the claim that it is the result of greed. The problem with that explanation is that greed is always a feature of human interaction. It always has been. Why, all of a sudden, has greed produced so much harm? And why only in one sector of the economy? After all, isn’t there plenty of greed elsewhere? Firms are indeed profit seekers. And they will seek after profit where the institutional incentives are such that profit is available. In a free market, firms profit by providing the goods that consumers want at prices they are willing to pay. (My friends, don’t stop reading there even if you disagree - now you know how I feel when you claim this mess is a failure of free markets - at least finish this paragraph.) However, regulations and policies and even the rhetoric of powerful political actors can change the incentives to profit. Regulations can make it harder for firms to minimize their risk by requiring that they make loans to marginal borrowers. Government institutions can encourage banks to take on extra risk by offering an implicit government guarantee if those risks fail. Government policies can direct self-interest into activities that only serve corporate profits, not the public
In the last week or two, I have heard frequently from you that the current financial mess has been caused by the failures of free markets and deregulation. I have heard from you that the lust after profits, any profits, that is central to free markets is at the core of our problems. And I have heard from you that only significant government intervention into financial markets can cure these problems, perhaps once and for all. I ask of you for the next few minutes to, in the words of Oliver Cromwell, consider that you may be mistaken. Consider that both the diagnosis and the cure might be equally mistaken.
Consider instead that the problems of this mess were caused by the very kinds of government regulation that you now propose. Consider instead that effects of the profit motive that you decry depend upon the incentives that institutions, regulations, and policies create, which in this case led profit-seekers to do great damage. Consider instead that the regulations that may have been the cause were supported by, as they have often been throughout US history, the very firms being regulated, mostly because they worked to said firms’ benefit, even as they screwed the rest of us. Consider all of this as you ask for more of the same in the name of fixing the problem. And finally, consider why you would ever imagine that those with wealth and power wouldn’t rig a new regulatory process in their favor.
One of the biggest confusions in the current mess is the claim that it is the result of greed. The problem with that explanation is that greed is always a feature of human interaction. It always has been. Why, all of a sudden, has greed produced so much harm? And why only in one sector of the economy? After all, isn’t there plenty of greed elsewhere? Firms are indeed profit seekers. And they will seek after profit where the institutional incentives are such that profit is available. In a free market, firms profit by providing the goods that consumers want at prices they are willing to pay. (My friends, don’t stop reading there even if you disagree - now you know how I feel when you claim this mess is a failure of free markets - at least finish this paragraph.) However, regulations and policies and even the rhetoric of powerful political actors can change the incentives to profit. Regulations can make it harder for firms to minimize their risk by requiring that they make loans to marginal borrowers. Government institutions can encourage banks to take on extra risk by offering an implicit government guarantee if those risks fail. Government policies can direct self-interest into activities that only serve corporate profits, not the public
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ACCT
Guest
The dollar is not on its death bed yet. The dollar will probably lose 50% of its purchasing power in the next 3 - 4 years. However, in the long-term the dollar is toast. At that point the government will give welfare recipients worthless paper dollars. People will ask for bread and they will get a stone.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
It is not possible. You might as well say “We need to rid the world of all human suffering”. Isn’t that a more laudable goal than just equal income distribution?
The reality is that this world is not Paradise. It was corrupted by original sin, and will always be corrupted by original sin until the end of the world. The poor will always be with us, and we will always be responsible for taking care of the poor. To be poor and to help the poor are key ways of obtaining heaven, which is the real goal.
Income distribution is not the problem. If it was, then Jesus would have railed on it. What he did rail on is that not everyone takes their responsibility to be charitable seriously.
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ACCT
Guest
To all of those who want the government to help the poor, I have a one word answer, DEFAULT!
Default on the national debt is one answer that the politicians and financial alchemists in Europe and the United States don’t want to face up to yet: Default! Debt writedowns. Essentially, the same debt cleansing process we see happen in consumer and corporate bankruptcies all the time, only on a much bigger scale.
To keep pretending that European countries and the United States can afford to pay for stimulus programs, social welfare budget busters, and more by borrowing until kingdom come is absolute folly! Investors know this. So I believe they will apply increasing pressure to the one instrument that best represents the failed European and American socialist experiment — the currency itself!
The Euro is toast and in the long-term the dollar is toast. The philosophy of socialism is failure! We have built the failed global economy on the quicksands of pride. Our economy will never improve without the common sense that only comes from God. Friends, the best way that you help poor people is not to become poor yourself. Get as far as you can from this failed socialist government economy! Time is short! Do not waste time!
Default on the national debt is one answer that the politicians and financial alchemists in Europe and the United States don’t want to face up to yet: Default! Debt writedowns. Essentially, the same debt cleansing process we see happen in consumer and corporate bankruptcies all the time, only on a much bigger scale.
To keep pretending that European countries and the United States can afford to pay for stimulus programs, social welfare budget busters, and more by borrowing until kingdom come is absolute folly! Investors know this. So I believe they will apply increasing pressure to the one instrument that best represents the failed European and American socialist experiment — the currency itself!
The Euro is toast and in the long-term the dollar is toast. The philosophy of socialism is failure! We have built the failed global economy on the quicksands of pride. Our economy will never improve without the common sense that only comes from God. Friends, the best way that you help poor people is not to become poor yourself. Get as far as you can from this failed socialist government economy! Time is short! Do not waste time!
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Then I guess we will have to change the three Lenten disciplines into “prayer, fasting, and accumulating wealth”.
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Captain_America
Guest
I really object to the heavy-handed politics in this post. POLITICS is not for this area of the website.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
Actually, the FIRST way to help the poor is to NOT be poor yourself.
Not being poor is different than accumulating wealth.
Prayer and fasting are very effective enablers for avoiding poverty, so there is no need to change the lenten disciplines, they already support the goals of not being poor.
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ACCT
Guest
I think that you are mistaken to believe that politics is separate from God.
“Our Constitution puts politics under theology, democracy under God. But today, politics denies its divine foundation. Politics is today the supreme and absolute science. We once lived in the age of the Theological Man; then cam the age of the Economic Man; now we are in the age of the Political Man. The Theological Man lived for God; the Economic Man lived for profit; the Political Man lives for the State…So important has politics become, that now men judge religion by its attitude toward politics, rather than* politics** by its attitude toward religion(Bishop Sheen).” *
“Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” Many are looking to the past and are seeing parallels to the atmosphere forming in our own nations to what was lived in other nations before tyranny came to rule. Our Lady’s words today are words of warning. She says that the world is rejecting Her Son’s Sacrifice and renewing His sufferings with sin that goes on without repentance. Our Lady has told us we have no future without Jesus. Our Lady also has taught that it is good to reflect upon the mistakes of the past so that we can choose a better future for ourselves.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Apparently you are unaware that the third Lenten discipline is almsgiving.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
“Please Do Not Discuss Politics Here” (Robert Bay, forum moderator) (from the sticky at the top of “Social Justice” forum)
I don’t think Bishop Sheen would have recommended that you break the rules of a forum that you agreed to when you joined.
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ACCT
Guest
I am not discussing politics. ** IF** the moderator thinks that I am discussing politics, I will leave this forum forever. I have bigger fish to fry.
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ACCT
Guest
Rules Do Not Work
Congress believes in salvation by law **(rules). **Congress thinks that if only there were a perfect law (rule), there would be a perfect society. A discussion on rules-based and principles-base standards would be enlightening. The SEC gave detailed reasons why both standards are subject to manipulation. The SEC agrees with me that rules (laws) do not work! Rules are for children who cannot think. However, objectives-oriented standard setting will solve the problem. The Sarbanes Oxley law promises that we all will soon be following the spirit of the law? I wonder where we are going to find a Solomon in government who has the wisdom to look into a man’s heart.
Congress believes in salvation by law **(rules). **Congress thinks that if only there were a perfect law (rule), there would be a perfect society. A discussion on rules-based and principles-base standards would be enlightening. The SEC gave detailed reasons why both standards are subject to manipulation. The SEC agrees with me that rules (laws) do not work! Rules are for children who cannot think. However, objectives-oriented standard setting will solve the problem. The Sarbanes Oxley law promises that we all will soon be following the spirit of the law? I wonder where we are going to find a Solomon in government who has the wisdom to look into a man’s heart.
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epan
Guest
Agreed. Combined US govt spending is currently $1.30 for every $1.00 in revenue. Until the Obama administration, conservatives have steadily increased this spending gap faster than moderates and liberals, since WW2. Reagan in particular grew government while professing to want to shrink it.
We have a generation of retirees who lived off the fat of a US economy which had no rivals at the end of WW2, and who feel entitled to their benefits. We have gone from 30 workers per retiree, to 2 workers (soon to be 1).
The Chinese economy will surpass the US economy within this decade. The labor market for new workers is global. A US engineering grad is competing with a Chinese grad, who is better educated, more motivated, and who will work for a fraction of US wages.
The average south Korean works 1,000 more hours per year than the average German.
Automation is rapidly replacing all manufacturing jobs, worldwide. China is experiencing serious unemployment problems now.
It seems that the world economy must be recreated. I believe tat this “great recession” is only the beginning of a sequence of events brought on by our rapidly changing world which is not structurally capable of handling the problems.
Politicians have responded by turning inward and taking what they can for themselves. I have personally seen a food storage bag full of hundred’s going to a secretary in Washington DC, and then seen the legislative results. This was during the Bush administration. The legislation was a taxation issue for alternative energy producers. T Boone Pickens was said to be involved by the person who was picking up the money. Where is Obama’s economic reform? Why is his cabinet the same guys who created the current crisis? Why is Hilary Clinton one of the the largest recipients of healthcare and insurance industry contributions?
So we know we have these problems. The difference between east Germany and west, or north Korea and south, is one of morality and ethics. Each example is of countries of the same people under different systems. There has been a groundswell of the 99%. That ay be a start, but it is incoherent and lacking leadership and organization.
We may be at a turning point, where things will radically change for the better, or will continue to spiral on the current course.
M
Matilda_Bennett
Guest
Just to clarify…
When this forum asks its posters not to discuss politics, what we have in mind is discussions of particular parties, candidates, political figures, etc. We allow for discussions on political philosophy or general political questions.
Thank you for your cooperation.
When this forum asks its posters not to discuss politics, what we have in mind is discussions of particular parties, candidates, political figures, etc. We allow for discussions on political philosophy or general political questions.
Thank you for your cooperation.
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ACCT
Guest
Thanks! That was my understanding of the word, “politics.”
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ACCT
Guest
Very good! Have you noticed that the quality of products and service has declined as our morality has declined?
D
Dan_Grelinger
Guest
I’m missing why that would be apparent. As it is not true, I am aware of that.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
If you knew that then why didn’t you get it when I replaced “almsgiving” by “accumulating wealth” in response to the posting that made the ridiculous claim that the best way to help the poor is to make sure you are not poor yourself? It is entirely possible to live a greedy self-centered life ensuring that I am not poor and not do anything at all to help the poor. So accumulating wealth, while there is nothing wrong with that, is not always the best way to help the poor.
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