Government Greed

[Bubba_Switzler]

It’s not a conspiracy. There is a lot of evidence showing that unregulated derivatives are responsible for the recent crash, that the government provided bailout money at near-zero or zero interest, that the bailout money was used for even more financial speculation, that similar asset bubbles are now appearing in Asia and elsewhere, and so forth.

Do you believe that unregulated derivatives caused the South Sea bubble or the Tulipmania bubble or the canal bubble? Do you believe that the VA allowed patients do die while collecting bonuses due to unregulated derivatives?

 

[ralfyman]

Do you believe that unregulated derivatives caused the South Sea bubble or the Tulipmania bubble or the canal bubble? Do you believe that the VA allowed patients do die while collecting bonuses due to unregulated derivatives?

What I mean is that there is no world-wide conspiracy. Instead, we have groups of financial elite in different countries engaged in crony capitalism and unregulated financial speculation. They may compete or cooperate with each other.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What I mean is that there is no world-wide conspiracy. Instead, we have groups of financial elite in different countries engaged in crony capitalism and unregulated financial speculation. They may compete or cooperate with each other.

Do you believe that either crony capitalism or financial speculations explains the VA deaths?

 

[BobCatholic]

If a regular person wants more money, they’re called “greedy”

When government wants more money (higher taxes) how is that not also greedy?

 

[ralfyman]

Do you believe that either crony capitalism or financial speculations explains the VA deaths?

I don’t think so, but that was never my point.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I don’t think so, but that was never my point.

My point is that your obsession with the “financial elite” blinds you to much of what is going on in the world and with economics over the span of human civilization.

 

[ralfyman]

My point is that your obsession with the “financial elite” blinds you to much of what is going on in the world and with economics over the span of human civilization.

That’s because the credit that government needs comes from the financial elite. This is particularly important for the U.S., where money supply is essentially controlled by the Fed, which is not a government central bank but a consortium of private banks.

Given that, what is the role of government? It is management that works for the investors.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

That’s because the credit that government needs comes from the financial elite. This is particularly important for the U.S., where money supply is essentially controlled by the Fed, which is not a government central bank but a consortium of private banks. Given that, what is the role of government? It is management that works for the investors.

So you do believe that the VA deaths were caused by the ‘financial elite’?

 

[ralfyman]

So you do believe that the VA deaths were caused by the ‘financial elite’?

It is caused by the same greed that affects the private sector, which is the point of the article that you shared.

Wall Street need government to legalize its operations, control the populace, and keep the petro-dollar propped up using the military. In return, it provides easy credit to both government and households.

Government needs easy credit from Wall Street to finance the military, which is needed to keep the petro-dollar propped up, and to provide government services to households as well as tax cuts.

Households need credit from banks to finance a middle class lifestyle, and will support government that supports Wall Street banks, uses the military to keep the petro-dollar propped up, and provides both tax cuts and government services.

All of these ultimately hinge on keeping the petro-dollar propped up, which is why the country spends incredible amounts of money to finance the military.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

It is caused by the same greed that affects the private sector, which is the point of the article that you shared.

Wall Street need government to legalize its operations, control the populace, and keep the petro-dollar propped up using the military. In return, it provides easy credit to both government and households.

Government needs easy credit from Wall Street to finance the military, which is needed to keep the petro-dollar propped up, and to provide government services to households as well as tax cuts.

Households need credit from banks to finance a middle class lifestyle, and will support government that supports Wall Street banks, uses the military to keep the petro-dollar propped up, and provides both tax cuts and government services.

All of these ultimately hinge on keeping the petro-dollar propped up, which is why the country spends incredible amounts of money to finance the military.

What does this network of greed have to do with the VA? You claim it is caused by “the same greed” but you draw no connection. I can’t figure out if you believe that the ‘financial elite’ caused the VA to kill patients or if you are simply trying to change the subject.

 

[johnmann]

There’s a fundamental problem with this logic.

If the free market and government are both equally greedy, it shouldn’t matter who we put in charge. But it does matter. A lot. We like free markets because they’re more greedy. They squeeze efficiency out of their operations. We don’t like the government running businesses because it’s not greedy enough. It’s inefficient.

And yet, sometimes we should prefer inefficiency. For example, we don’t want prisons or orphanages to be profitable. In general, when you have a market that can’t choose whether or not to use your product, it’s a monopoly and it may be best if the government or a non-profit ran it.

Milton Friedman wanted federal parks to be owned and operated by the non-profit Sierra Club. So maybe he would have wanted non-profit prisons but I imagine he would have seen the problem with for-profit prisons.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

There’s a fundamental problem with this logic.

If the free market and government are both equally greedy, it shouldn’t matter who we put in charge. But it does matter. A lot. We like free markets because they’re more greedy. They squeeze efficiency out of their operations. We don’t like the government running businesses because it’s not greedy enough. It’s inefficient.

And yet, sometimes we should prefer inefficiency. For example, we don’t want prisons or orphanages to be profitable. In general, when you have a market that can’t choose whether or not to use your product, it’s a monopoly and it may be best if the government or a non-profit ran it.

Milton Friedman wanted federal parks to be owned and operated by the non-profit Sierra Club. So maybe he would have wanted non-profit prisons but I imagine he would have seen the problem with for-profit prisons.

Maybe there is more to this than simply deciding who is greedy and who is not. It doesn’t help that the term ‘greed’ itself is so slopilly employed by all. But however it is defined, the idea that we should put the least greedy in charge of society is an inherently flawed idea that leads to all manner of human suffering.

 

[ralfyman]

What does this network of greed have to do with the VA? You claim it is caused by “the same greed” but you draw no connection. I can’t figure out if you believe that the ‘financial elite’ caused the VA to kill patients or if you are simply trying to change the subject.

The article that you shared is not about the VA: it only refers to VA deaths as an example of government self-interest.

Where is the point that government self-interest is the same as business self-interest? It is found in the last paragraph of the article that you shared.

Where does the network of greed come in? You can see that in the same last paragraph of the article, especially in references to “impulses” that seduce both government and business. What about mutual cooperation between government and business? Read the last sentence of the article.

So, you see, I did not change the topic.

 

[ralfyman]

Maybe there is more to this than simply deciding who is greedy and who is not. It doesn’t help that the term ‘greed’ itself is so slopilly employed by all. But however it is defined, the idea that we should put the least greedy in charge of society is an inherently flawed idea that leads to all manner of human suffering.

Are you implying that the U.S. government is the least greedy compared to non-government organizations?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The article that you shared is not about the VA: it only refers to VA deaths as an example of government self-interest.

Where is the point that government self-interest is the same as business self-interest? It is found in the last paragraph of the article that you shared.

Where does the network of greed come in? You can see that in the same last paragraph of the article, especially in references to “impulses” that seduce both government and business. What about mutual cooperation between government and business? Read the last sentence of the article.

So, you see, I did not change the topic.

That’s a pretty slender reed to hang your ‘financial elite’ theory on.

“It’s also true that the managerial class would benefit from the bureaucratization of America.”

Unless you are defining the term far more broadly than I had assumed, this is not a reference to a ‘financial elite’ but to the vast swath of managerial bureaucracy that inhabits government and big business alike.

Are you implying that the U.S. government is the least greedy compared to non-government organizations?

I wouldn’t even know how to compare the two. Nobody seems interested in grapling with what ‘greed’ actually means.

 

[ralfyman]

That’s a pretty slender reed to hang your ‘financial elite’ theory on.

“It’s also true that the managerial class would benefit from the bureaucratization of America.”

Unless you are defining the term far more broadly than I had assumed, this is not a reference to a ‘financial elite’ but to the vast swath of managerial bureaucracy that inhabits government and big business alike.

Please read the first sentence of the last paragraph of the article mentioned in the OP.

I wouldn’t even know how to compare the two. Nobody seems interested in grapling with what ‘greed’ actually means.

Please consider the last paragraph of the article mentioned in the OP.