Government Intrusion in the Church - How to Respond?

[Neil_Anthony]

We’re starting to see government intrusion in the church, like many countries have had over the centuries. But its new to us, so how do we respond when these hypothetical things happen:

1. Goverment orders that a homosexual ex-seminarian be re-accepted to the seminary and allowed to be a priest.
2. Government orders bishop to ordain women as priests, and bishop obeys.
3. Government orders church to erect signs in the church that promote un-catholic opinions.
4. Government appoints a new bishop over the diocese and imprisons the legitimate bishop.

What do we do in these cases? How far do we go along before we start breaking the law?

 

[Dtmccameron]

Those seem like strange things for the government to…do. You’ld sooner see making the sign of the cross in public banned than you would those. The governments of the world are pushing for secularism, so I’d think they’ld rather get rid of the Church than they would pervert it.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Number 4 actually happened in European countries where Catholicism was the official state religion, especially during the Imperial period.

Graduation from seminary does NOT guarantee ordination. I know several men in this category.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Those seem like strange things for the government to…do. You’ld sooner see making the sign of the cross in public banned than you would those. The governments of the world are pushing for secularism, so I’d think they’ld rather get rid of the Church than they would pervert it.

Something similar is happening in my country right now, a bishop is being taken to court because he wouldn’t let a homosexual be an altar server. It could be the same thing with priests as with altar servers.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Number 4 actually happened in European countries where Catholicism was the official state religion, especially during the Imperial period.

Graduation from seminary does NOT guarantee ordination. I know several men in this category.

Did the pope recognize these bishops appointed by the state?

 

[Wesley7]

You would respond by being willing to cooperate with the government authorities. Anyhow, since congress and the judiciary branch are composed of people who share ideas and dialogue with each other.

~ Wesley

 

[incense]

Read about St. Thomas More and how he handled King Henry VIII 's subjugation of the Church. According to the book, A Man of Courage, More said that Richard III and Henry both were able to do it legally, by the law, because people in authority did not do their jobs. They were either afraid, greedy, or thought they were being diplomatic. Only one bishop resisted the King.

Which is what we see happening here. The ones with authority are not asking to see Obama’s birth certificate. Congress is passing bills that aren’t fully in writing yet. Money games with stocks and bonds and oil and company ownership are somehow manipulated to give wealth to certain people, while taken away from retirees and other average citizens. Hate crimes are enacted to control speech and even thought, and what morality we can teach our children.

I think we learn to be as diplomatic as possible, but prepare ourselves to not deny our Church or God. He wrote a book on how to face fear.

I would love to see a book discussion on St. Thomas More and his writings.

 

[diggerdomer]

We’re starting to see government intrusion in the church, like many countries have had over the centuries. But its new to us, so how do we respond when these hypothetical things happen:

1. Goverment orders that a homosexual ex-seminarian be re-accepted to the seminary and allowed to be a priest.
2. Government orders bishop to ordain women as priests, and bishop obeys.
3. Government orders church to erect signs in the church that promote un-catholic opinions.
4. Government appoints a new bishop over the diocese and imprisons the legitimate bishop.

What do we do in these cases? How far do we go along before we start breaking the law?

Wow! Unbelievable!

Can you help by giving us at least one concrete objective instance of where any of these things are happening?

They all defy my imagination.

Thanks and best wishes.

 

[Drawmack]

Read about St. Thomas More and how he handled King Henry VIII 's subjugation of the Church.

Just out of curiosity, does that book mention how Thomas More was personally responsible for the martyrdom of almost 200 Protestant reformers?

The ones with authority are not asking to see Obama’s birth certificate.

Barack’s Hawaiian birth certificate is available on the internet and has been since before he was elected.latimesblogs.latimes.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/13/bobirthcertificate.jpg

Hate crimes are enacted to control speech and even thought, and what morality we can teach our children.

Source please, can you give me one hate crime law Obama has signed? Can you give me one law censoring the morality we are allowed to teach our children? Can you give me one law which attempts to control thought?

I know that a lot of people have a lot of problems with Obama, but really do we need to just make stuff up?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Read about St. Thomas More and how he handled King Henry VIII 's subjugation of the Church. According to the book, A Man of Courage, More said that Richard III and Henry both were able to do it legally, by the law, because people in authority did not do their jobs. They were either afraid, greedy, or thought they were being diplomatic. Only one bishop resisted the King.

Which is what we see happening here. The ones with authority are not asking to see Obama’s birth certificate. Congress is passing bills that aren’t fully in writing yet. Money games with stocks and bonds and oil and company ownership are somehow manipulated to give wealth to certain people, while taken away from retirees and other average citizens. Hate crimes are enacted to control speech and even thought, and what morality we can teach our children.

I think we learn to be as diplomatic as possible, but prepare ourselves to not deny our Church or God. He wrote a book on how to face fear.

I would love to see a book discussion on St. Thomas More and his writings.

Thank you, that’s exactly what I was looking for, an example to research. I’ll check out “A Man of Courage”.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Wow! Unbelievable!

Can you help by giving us at least one concrete objective instance of where any of these things are happening?

They all defy my imagination.

Thanks and best wishes.

I hope you didn’t misread the OP, I said these were hypothetical future problems… but I can give you some examples of why I think they could become issues:

1. Goverment orders that a homosexual ex-seminarian be re-accepted to the seminary and allowed to be a priest.

Similar case going on in Ontario now, a Bishop being forced to re-instate a gay alter server who lives with another gay man, and the parishioners who complained are being fined $20,000 each for complaining to the bishop about the alter server.

1. Government orders bishop to ordain women as priests, and bishop obeys.

This seems very likely to happen in the future, but I haven’t heard of any challenges yet.

1. Government orders church to erect signs in the church that promote un-catholic opinions.

In the middle ages some catholic countries forced Jewish Synagogues to allow catholics to proclaim the gospel during their services. In our age the dominant religion, human secularism, is getting increasingly demanding about insisting on teaching relativism to our children. In quebec, the Catholics schools have been forced to teach all religions as being equal, and they can not opt out of this curriculum.

1. Government appoints a new bishop over the diocese and imprisons the legitimate bishop.

This has been happening in China since the 1950’s.

So, I reason that if these things could happen in some places at some times, they could happen here, and wondering how we’re supposed to deal with it. Sort of trying to be prepared!

 

[Mattapoisett64]

What I think we’ll see is that these types of actions won’t come on directly, head-on, but through indirect pressure – such as through the tax code. The government order a church to ordain a woman? Heaven forfend! We have the First Amendment, don’t you know!

BUT: It’s much easier to forsee a time where the government will take the position that it needs to defend what it regards as “human rights” by removing tax favored treatment for institutions - and donors to that institution - that do not bend to what the government defines as “human rights.” Your church doesn’t ordain women? Fine - but you and your donors have lost their tax exemption / donation deductibility. No same-gender marriages? Sure - but here’s your property tax and income tax bills. No third “transgendered” bathroom in your facility – here’s a nice OSHA fine.

 

[BillP]

Similar case going on in Ontario now, a Bishop being forced to re-instate a gay alter server who lives with another gay man, and the parishioners who complained are being fined $20,000 each for complaining to the bishop about the alter server.

Kind of jumping the gun aren’t you? The case wasn’t even filed until June 17th (a month ago), and hasn’t yet been ruled on. So the Bishop isn’t being “forced” to do anything is he?

Besides that, a close reading of the actual details might be eye-opening.

• Cocoran claims that he and his room-mate are chaste, not in a sexual relationship and have publically subscribed to Church teaching on homosexual chastity and the definition of marriage.

While Corcoran does live with another gay man, they are devout Catholics who refrain from sexual activity in accordance with church teaching, he said.

.

• Twelve parishioners, offended by the presence of these two children of God, took it upon themselves to “go to the Bishop” with a bunch of accusations, based on their interpretation of some of the content of Cochoran’s wewbsite. And it appears that these 12 parishioners were actually more concerned with getting their pastor fired…

By complaining to De Angelis about Corcoran the 12 parishioners had intended to express their unhappiness with St. Michael’s pastor Fr. Allan Hood, said Reg Ward, one of the authors of the letter to De Angelis. They blamed Hood for inviting Corcoran and his roommate to become altar servers.

“It was just one more way of Fr. Hood saying he’s boss and to hell with everybody else, like what the church is saying and everybody else,” said Ward.

Hood refused to speak with The Catholic Register on the record, citing diocesan policy against priests speaking to the media.

Ward and Lawless have written a series of letters to De Angelis complaining about Hood since he was appointed to St. Michael’s in July 2008. Ward claims the dissatisfaction with Hood runs deeper than just 12 parishioners in one of the Peterborough diocese’s larger parishes.

“Dorothy (Ward’s wife) and I know personally 25 or 30 who have left the church, are going to church elsewhere,” Ward said. “We know some of them who aren’t going to church at all.”

In short, I think the guy has a case. The bishop should have ascertained that the two men weren’t “notorious and public sinners” by interviewing them, then told the 12 to shut the hell up and practice a little charity.

Which, by the way, is what the plaintiff is asking for! Its a pity the Bishop didn’t choose to act a little more Christ-like when dealing with the rogue parishioners.

1. Government orders church to erect signs in the church that promote un-catholic opinions.

In the middle ages some catholic countries forced Jewish Synagogues to allow catholics to proclaim the gospel during their services. In our age the dominant religion, human secularism, is getting increasingly demanding about insisting on teaching relativism to our children. In quebec, the Catholics schools have been forced to teach all religions as being equal, and they can not opt out of this curriculum.

I’ll admit, this one had Coca-cola shooting out my nose in laughter! You’re concerned that some government, in the future, might try to control the message at Catholic Churches **because the Catholic Church has, in the past, done exactly the same thing to Jews!

**Oh, irony! thy name is Neil!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Kind of jumping the gun aren’t you?

Yes… I’m very bored and I spend my days daydreaming about what-if scenarios. It’s all hypothetical at this point.

Although, if the government forced my parish to let bad examples help on the altar, I couldn’t continue going there. So it would be an easy decision for me - find another parish. But it would be difficult for the priests and bishops - do they do the right thing and go to jail, or cave in?

 

[incense]

In short, I think the guy has a case. The bishop should have…

What!!! You’re saying the government should step in if someone isn’t allowed to be an altar boy at mass!!!

No thank you. I believe China has a state Catholic Church, perhaps that’s what you’re seeking? Or perhaps you can look at the Episcopal or Anglican churches if you’re hunting for one that worships man’s opinions instead of God.

Talk about litigation happy.

 

[Corki]

What!!! You’re saying the government should step in if someone isn’t allowed to be an altar boy at mass!!!

Exactly! Bill doesn’t seem to have a problem with the government stepping in and telling a Bishop how to run his diocese and how to direct his priests.

And the guy shouldn’t have a case. A gay person living publically with another gay person is just as scandalous as an unmarried straight woman living together with a man. I don’t care if they are having sex or being chaste. They shouldn’t be given public ministries. You don’t get a “pass” by playing the “gay” card, unless you are in a “hate speech” jurisdiction.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I hope you didn’t misread the OP, I said these were hypothetical future problems… but I can give you some examples of why I think they could become issues:

1. Goverment orders that a homosexual ex-seminarian be re-accepted to the seminary and allowed to be a priest.

Similar case going on in Ontario now, a Bishop being forced to re-instate a gay alter server who lives with another gay man, and the parishioners who complained are being fined $20,000 each for complaining to the bishop about the alter server.
2. Government orders bishop to ordain women as priests, and bishop obeys.

This seems very likely to happen in the future, but I haven’t heard of any challenges yet.

1. Government orders church to erect signs in the church that promote un-catholic opinions.

In the middle ages some catholic countries forced Jewish Synagogues to allow catholics to proclaim the gospel during their services. In our age the dominant religion, human secularism, is getting increasingly demanding about insisting on teaching relativism to our children. In quebec, the Catholics schools have been forced to teach all religions as being equal, and they can not opt out of this curriculum.

1. Government appoints a new bishop over the diocese and imprisons the legitimate bishop.

This has been happening in China since the 1950’s.

So, I reason that if these things could happen in some places at some times, they could happen here, and wondering how we’re supposed to deal with it. Sort of trying to be prepared!

Hi Neil,

I live in the US, and the very idea of parishioners being fined for complaining about something, in ANY dollar amount, let alone this high a figure makes me want to ask if you have a link to this!
Is your country basically saying that they can set fines on members of any church, or is your catholic church fining these members?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Hi Neil,

I live in the US, and the very idea of parishioners being fined for complaining about something, in ANY dollar amount, let alone this high a figure makes me want to ask if you have a link to this!
Is your country basically saying that they can set fines on members of any church, or is your catholic church fining these members?

Here’s the story in a reputable catholic newspaper :

catholicregister.org/content/view/3256/849/

We’re all hoping that the ‘human rights tribunal’ will throw the case out…