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foundthelight
Guest
I think I will go with plain Scripture guided by the Holy Spirit and take Peter at his word.
- Status
G
geezerbob
Guest
Please explain what Jesus meant in Matthew 25:31-46. Nobody attached any fine print to that and it’s pretty clear, to me, at least. The loss for not doing good works is eternal damnation and the reward for doing them is eternity with God. Can you twist that portion of the Bible around to mean something other that what it clearly states?
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foundthelight
Guest
Saul received the Holy Spirit and prophesied. Does that mean he was saved? Your argument doesn’t hold water.
M
mnmom
Guest
The works in scripture are referring to works of the law of the Pharases (my spelling is not right). Catholics do not believe works save you. Grace does. Also in scripture, James it states “faith without works is dead”. How is that justified. It is not faith or works. It is faith and working through love. You can not have just works or just faith. You need faith working through love. 
As Jesus stated do as the Pharases tell you not as they do. Catholics do NOT believe in works riteousness.
As Jesus stated do as the Pharases tell you not as they do. Catholics do NOT believe in works riteousness.
T
Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
Does one Scripture reference nullify another?
Everlasting life is God’s free gift.
The Holy Spirit is God’s free gift.
Have you really found a Scripture that will nullify this?
I’m saved, and I do works.
Is this evident to you all?
We can be strong in alotta kinds of works, but we may falter on other works and deeds.
At the Judgment Seat of Christ we will receive reward and suffer loss. Oh, well.
Get over it.
Rejoice, anyway.
Believe and receive the forgiveness of sins, and Everlasting Life.
And, do yer best…
G
geezerbob
Guest
Nice tap dance, but you never did explain just what Jesus meant by the parable of the sheep and the goats.
T
Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
In this life: Can a Catholic (or anyone) possess everlasting life - and know it?
Has the Church ever believed, and therefore taught: that it would be a “sin” to say that we already have it? (Everlasting life.)
Is it in the denial that we have it now: somehow the key to having it later?
Is this a necessity: a required virtuous denying of oneself, or something?
Superstition? -To say that we have it now: might even jinx it?
-Should we cross our hearts, and fingers?
(I don’t know whether to laugh, or cry.)
Say a consensus was therefore reasonably initiated, and Catholics were asked the big question:
“Do you now have everlasting life, through Jesus Christ?” -What would we hear?
It appears that most in the Catholic Church do profess belief in, “the forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.” But, it also appears that many in the Catholic Church do not (in fact) believe that they now possess it. (Dogmatically, it does seem quite elusive.)
St. Francis of Assisi’s words have been coined quite often in the saying, “in dying we are born to eternal life.” What did he mean? (Is he referring to John 3? 1 Peter 1:3? Or maybe, Romans 6:7?)
How many people have missed the boat and assumed what he said to mean:
“Oh, we have to wait until we die (in order) to be born to eternal life.” ?]
-So close, and yet so far.
Good thing: in the Bible, Jesus made it clear why we have to be born-again (made-alive spiritually) before we die (physically). Because, in reality, no one can be saved after they die. Not a deed done (by any) after we die will do. Souls must be saved in this life. (2 Corinthians 6:2. Hebrews 2:3. James 5:19-20. Romans, chapter 1. Romans 6:23. John 3 . John 5:24. John 11:25-26. Ephesians 2. Colossians 2.)
Is the “everlasting life” that Jesus promised to all who would believe: The great unmerited, undeserved, (charitable) gift of God? -Yes, or, no? (Ephesians 2:8-9. Titus 3:4-8. John 5:24; 6:37-40; 11:25-26. Romans 10:8-13. Acts 2:21. 1 John 5:10-20.)
Or, do we have to painstakingly get through a maze of required dogmatic “canon law” to earn or merit it? (Algernon.)
Are we meeting quota? Are we saved by what our Savior did for us?
Or, are we saved (by reward) through our deeds, works, intentions and devotions? (Colossians 2:12-15. Titus 3:5. Romans, 3-8. Romans 10:3. Galatians 3. Isaiah 64:6. Philippians 3:9. Hebrews 11:7.)
Has the Church ever believed, and therefore taught: that it would be a “sin” to say that we already have it? (Everlasting life.)
Is it in the denial that we have it now: somehow the key to having it later?
Is this a necessity: a required virtuous denying of oneself, or something?
Superstition? -To say that we have it now: might even jinx it?
-Should we cross our hearts, and fingers?
(I don’t know whether to laugh, or cry.)
Say a consensus was therefore reasonably initiated, and Catholics were asked the big question:
“Do you now have everlasting life, through Jesus Christ?” -What would we hear?
It appears that most in the Catholic Church do profess belief in, “the forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.” But, it also appears that many in the Catholic Church do not (in fact) believe that they now possess it. (Dogmatically, it does seem quite elusive.)
St. Francis of Assisi’s words have been coined quite often in the saying, “in dying we are born to eternal life.” What did he mean? (Is he referring to John 3? 1 Peter 1:3? Or maybe, Romans 6:7?)
How many people have missed the boat and assumed what he said to mean:
“Oh, we have to wait until we die (in order) to be born to eternal life.” ?]
-So close, and yet so far.
Good thing: in the Bible, Jesus made it clear why we have to be born-again (made-alive spiritually) before we die (physically). Because, in reality, no one can be saved after they die. Not a deed done (by any) after we die will do. Souls must be saved in this life. (2 Corinthians 6:2. Hebrews 2:3. James 5:19-20. Romans, chapter 1. Romans 6:23. John 3 . John 5:24. John 11:25-26. Ephesians 2. Colossians 2.)
Is the “everlasting life” that Jesus promised to all who would believe: The great unmerited, undeserved, (charitable) gift of God? -Yes, or, no? (Ephesians 2:8-9. Titus 3:4-8. John 5:24; 6:37-40; 11:25-26. Romans 10:8-13. Acts 2:21. 1 John 5:10-20.)
Or, do we have to painstakingly get through a maze of required dogmatic “canon law” to earn or merit it? (Algernon.)
Are we meeting quota? Are we saved by what our Savior did for us?
Or, are we saved (by reward) through our deeds, works, intentions and devotions? (Colossians 2:12-15. Titus 3:5. Romans, 3-8. Romans 10:3. Galatians 3. Isaiah 64:6. Philippians 3:9. Hebrews 11:7.)
C
Church_Militant
Guest
This passage nowhere says anything about the Word of God.
and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.”
Our “works of righteousness” follow us after Jesus saves us.
We do not do works of righteousness (in order) to get saved.You diminish the bolded parts in your gospel. Why?
“Washing of regeneration”=Baptism according to John 3:5, Acts 2:38 and 22:16 as well as others.
“Justified by grace”=Catholic teaching.
“hope of eternal life”= Not once saved always saved…
“that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.”: Here again, you seek to minimize something at Paul obviously emphasizes. No one here will assert that we are saved by our works, but this verse and many many others plainly state that good works play a greater role in our salvation than you seem to be preaching.
Really? As I pointed out, no one here is going to tell you that we are saved by our good works because that is not what we believe. However, if you look into the Old Testament, the whole concept of repentance as you present it is lacking in the clear aspect of penance. The Catholic Church has consistently translated metanoia in the New Testament, consistent with both the repentance from sin and the penitential actions that display that repentance. the fact that both concepts apply biblically means that your message concerning penances is scripturally deficient.
Yeah… we know that…
Well “duh”…
”Faithful catholics will say AMEN and ALLELUIA because we believe every word of what those verses are saying!
However, you messed up in quoting verse 18, which plainly tells us that Our Lord passed on through the apostles the ministry of reconciliation, which ties directly into John 20: 21-23 “23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”
Are you trying to be cute here?
How Is A Catholic Saved?
You do realize a couple of things don’t you?
- Faithful Catholics are born again Christians.
- Proselytizing Catholics here at CAF is a violation of the rules you agreed to when you joined us.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Ya know…the sarcasm really reflects the image of Jesus to us. NOT!
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foundthelight
Guest
Another example.
These He condemned could have done nothing without the Holy Spirit. Yet He condemned them.
Faith and works. Not one or the other.
T
Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
We know that Jesus will do the right thing on Judgment Day.
He’s the real authority on all of that.
In the Scriptures, were the Apostles at odds with one another, or with God?
No. -Right?
You believe that I dodge some Scriptures; and I believe you make a wash of other Scriptures.
Where do we go from here?
C
Church_Militant
Guest
We go with the fact that you are preaching a deficient and different gospel, as I point out here. Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
S
Stephen_C
Guest
Well who is your authority on these matters? If you disagree with anyone on what Scripure is saying…who do you take this to…who is your authority? How is this resolved? Who is the final word on this? And who is wrong…why?
S
SyCarl
Guest
Protestants do not deny that good works will come as a result of faith. A true saving faith is one that results in works.
With the goats an the sheep, Jesus is explaining the evidence which will show that the judgement is just. The goats had the opportunity to prove their faith but didn’t, showing that it was not a true faith. The sheep had the opportunity to do good works and did some. This was the evidence that they had true saving faith. Please note that Jesus is not dealing with someone who had no opportunity to do a good work, such as someone with a death bed repentance. Such a case shows that we do not need works to be saved but does not deny that the death bed repenter should have done them if he had the chance.
The sheep and the goats both had the chance. With the goats they had failed to do even one to provide evidence. With the sheep all we know is that they did at least one.
The point is that if we have faith we will do what we should do. We should not expect a reward for doing nothing other than what we should be doing. Jesus makes this clear clear in Luke 17:9-10
T
Tom
Guest
First of all the question is about the “alone”. The word has a meaning:
Merriam-Webster:
Even the saying Jesus alone, which is closest to correct, implies a separation of the Son from the Father and Holy Spirit.
Merriam-Webster:
By definition it is exclusive. You can’t have several “alones”; there can be only one alone. Each of the “alones” is lacking. This is modern society trying to find the easy way. Tell me the one thing I need to know! Tell me the one thing I need to do! The one thing is everything.
Even the saying Jesus alone, which is closest to correct, implies a separation of the Son from the Father and Holy Spirit.
T
Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
(Edited)
-You go and confess to a priest what you have done to somebody.
Then, he prescribes you a penance to perform.
A few Hail Marys, and the like…
And that required “penance” has nothing to do with going to that person and making amends.
Repentance, on the other hand is doing the right thing about your sin.
If ya know what I mean…
They have gone so far as to put the words “do penance” instead of the original “repent” in the Bible.
We are warned not to change God’s Word.
No anulling, abridging, superceding or dogmatizing is allowed.
And, The Church has had a reputation for doing that, for a long long time…
-You go and confess to a priest what you have done to somebody.
Then, he prescribes you a penance to perform.
A few Hail Marys, and the like…
And that required “penance” has nothing to do with going to that person and making amends.
Repentance, on the other hand is doing the right thing about your sin.
If ya know what I mean…
They have gone so far as to put the words “do penance” instead of the original “repent” in the Bible.
We are warned not to change God’s Word.
No anulling, abridging, superceding or dogmatizing is allowed.
And, The Church has had a reputation for doing that, for a long long time…
T
Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
IF I went to a few priests about all of this, each would have their angle on it.
-Their Two cents worth:twocents:
Who would they tell me is “the authority” about it all?
S
Stephen_C
Guest
You did not answer my question…Who is your authorty on these matters…
C
Church_Militant
Guest
(Edited)
The glaring FACT that repentance and penance are biblically linked together is right there in the Old Testament and the New Testament references to them in the OT.
Here are some examples:
Matthew 3:8 (What would be “fruit worthy of repentance”?)
Matthew 11: 20-24 Notice what Our Lord Jesus Christ says in verse 21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. Certainly other translations say repentance there, but just precisely what do you suppose “sackcloth and ashes” is if not Penance? :doh2:
Look here at Matthew 12:41 The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here. Then go back and read the book of Jonah and tell me that they didn’t repent and do penance?
No… the fact is that the modern post reformation n-Cs have intentionally tinkered with the New Testament to change the message of the Word of God.
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
Yeah… as a matter of fact we do, and so does the Catholic Church, which has always taught that along with whatever penance one receives one should return to whoever you wronged and make whatever amends are needed. If you’re an “ex-Catholic”, I guess you failed to catch that somehow in your learning.
That’s funny because I just went and did a whole research on metanoia and the other Greek words that have that meaning in the New Testament, and even the n-C sources I read were saying that though they chose to translate it as repent…that penance was also and aspect of the meanings of those words. So here, you are apparently wrong.
The glaring FACT that repentance and penance are biblically linked together is right there in the Old Testament and the New Testament references to them in the OT.
Here are some examples:
Matthew 3:8 (What would be “fruit worthy of repentance”?)
Matthew 11: 20-24 Notice what Our Lord Jesus Christ says in verse 21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. Certainly other translations say repentance there, but just precisely what do you suppose “sackcloth and ashes” is if not Penance? :doh2:
Look here at Matthew 12:41 The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here. Then go back and read the book of Jonah and tell me that they didn’t repent and do penance?
No… the fact is that the modern post reformation n-Cs have intentionally tinkered with the New Testament to change the message of the Word of God.
Yeah we are… but according to the Word of God, it’s not the Catholics who have done this.
And it appears that you have been deceived away from the Catholic faith by a different gospel. Do you know what the Word of God says about that?
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
- Status