Grace "Alone", Faith "Alone", Christ "Alone"

[SyCarl]

Well who is your authority on these matters? If you disagree with anyone on what Scripure is saying…who do you take this to…who is your authority? How is this resolved? Who is the final word on this? And who is wrong…why?

I know who your authority is. It is the Catholic Church. However how can you consult this authority on the meaning of a particular scripture. It is my understanding that the Catholic Church has only definitively interpretted a few verses. What do you do if you want to understand another verse or even if you need clarification of a verse already interpretted?

Would you take it to a priest? You could do so but the Church makes no claim that its priests are infallible so what you would end up with is the priest’s private interpretation, albeit hopefully in accordance with Catholic doctrine although, with complaints about liberal priests I see on these forums, that may not be the case. But either way it is his interpretation.

Suppose you are able to take it to your bishop? But he is not infallible either so again you would get a private interpretation.

The Church say the magesterium of the Church can be infallible but how do you go about asking the magesterium as a whole for an interpretation? Similarly the Pope is claimed to be infallible on certain occasions but how likely is it that he would answer your request for an interpretation and, even if he did, would he frame it as an infallible pronouncement?

Basically all you can do is rely on your own interpretation, in line what you understand the Church’s teaching to be, or someone else’s interpretation. How is this much different that what a Protestant can do?

 

[Stephen_C]

To make this short…I rely on Sacred Tradition which our Sacred bible was born from. As well the Magisteriam (sp? ) which is the teaching authority of the Church founded by Jesus. And protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Again I ask…who is your authority on these matters? Who do you you submit to when in disagreement?
(I am not asking what is my authority…or what you think my authority is)

 

[SyCarl]

To make this short…I rely on Sacred Tradition which our Sacred bible was born from ST. As well the Magisteriam (sp ) which is the teaching authority of the Church founded by Jesus. And protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Again I ask…who is your authority on these matters? Who do you you submit to when in disagreement?
(I am not asking what is my authority…or what you think my authorty is)

I rely on the Holy Spirit and Scripture to guide me to the truth I need. I can consult various sources to assist me such as ministers, commentaries, and even Catholic sources but ultimatley rely on the Holy Spirit.

Let me pose a hypothetical situation.

An athiest or the follower of some other religion is stranded on an island. The one thing he was able to salvage from the disaster that put him there was a copy of the Bible. He has never heard of Jesus before but, having nothing else to do, he starts reading. He believes what he reads and is sorry for his past. He asks God for forgiveness. He does nothing else as there is no one else there he can help with anything. Several years later, unrescued, he dies.

While only God can know for sure, would you feel that this person was saved? If so on what basis could it be other than by scripture alone and faith alone. He has done no works and received no sacraments. I know of baptism of desire, but that is saying nothing more than he had faith and would have been baptized if he could have been. Effectually that is faith alone.

 

[Stephen_C]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it…does it make a sound? Is it any less true? I think the word is normative. It is though no fault of his own that he was not able to be baptized or recieve any of the other Sacraments. Although the desire was there. So I do not see your point here.

So if you rely on the holy spirit and the person who you are in disagreement with rely’s on the the holy spirit to guide him to all things true…

 

[SyCarl]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it…does it make a sound? Is it any less true? I think the word is normative. It is though no fault of his own that he was not able to be baptized or recieve any of the other Sacraments. Although the desire was there. So I do not see your point here.

So if you rely on the holy spirit and the person who you are in disagreement with rely’s on the the holy spirit to guide him to all things true…

He didn’t do any works either. If he is saved it is by faith with information he received from the Bible.

With respect to a disagreement we could agree to disagree or perhaps seek a minister’s or someone elses interpretation and see if it made sense.

My point is that for most practical purposes Catholics and Protestants are in the same boat if they disagree with someone. If you disagree with another Catholic over whether something is a mortal sin or not how would you resolve it? If you go to a priest you would just be getting his private interpretation since there is no claim that priests are infallible. Even if he quoted Church doctrine, unless the situation dealt with in the doctrine is identical to your question, the best you would be getting is his private interpretation of the doctrine.

 

[Stephen_C]

I submit to the authority of the Catholic Church on this one…
Case closed for me…

CCC
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Ya know. Sometimes it seems to me that the protestants just put their heads between their shoulders, and refuse all logic and reasoning. Or is my brain stuck on something, that it shouldn’t be?

Awhile back I had a debate on another forum about this phrase quoted on entry to this topic. I pointed out that the phrase “Grace Alone, Faith alone and Christ alone” is the very definition of an Oxymoron. Since if you say Grace alone, then how does faith enter the picture? Or if you say Faith Alone, then how does Grace enter the picture? I mean after all the word “Alone”, has a definition in the English language. It is very clear, it means alone, it means nothing else.

Why do our protestant brethren insist on saying this? Frankly, I’m mystified.

Chipper

Because the intention is to emphasise​

• that we don’t look to our merits for salvation, because apart from God we merit & can merit only Hell;
• we don’t look to any of our works, but to the atoning Death of Christ;
• & there is salvation in Christ, & in no other name at all
  There’s no oxymoron here, for each one of these three - in full, five - things is the only gift of its kind. Each is unique in its kind - & each one is alone because it excludes every means of help that might otherwise seem to be in the same class as itself. So these affirmations have a positive meaning - & also, a negative meaning.

For instance, salvation by grace alone has as its negative meaning, salvation by works not at all: not by works before justification, & not by works following justification, but - positively - only by grace, from first to last. And this means, by free grace (which is a tautology but not an oxymoron) - i.e., by grace which is free to us.

Hope that helps