Grace alone

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Earlier today I felt like leaving catholicism because I’d heard a couple of people making statements that affirm the idea of salvation by grace alone. Since then I’ve come to believe that this is not true of catholicism and hence I’m not leaving.

See below article.

theologyofandrew.blogspot.com/2009/09/sola-gratia-catholicism-doesnt-teach-it.html
Well, I am glad that you have decided not to leave. I would highly recommend that you read paragraphs 1987-2029 in the Catechism for a better understanding of Justification, Grace, and Merits.

While this “Andrew” fellow has this analogy
Or to use another analogy. Imagine the difference between these two scenarios. In Protestantism, you’re Paris Hilton with your dad’s credit card, you can spend as much as you want and he still thinks your just a silly little starlet. In Catholicism, you work in a coal mine, your dad got you the job, and if you screw up you get fired, and slowly little by little you accumulate your own money. In both cases you didn’t deserve the job, so it’s technically by grace, but one is definately grace alone, and the other is definately grace and works.
His analogy falls down on the Catholic side. Better would be “In Catholicism, you work in a coal mine, your dad got you the job, he gives you the tools, he works beside you, and if necessary he finishes what you cant, and you either choose to remain and persevere with him or you choose to throw down your pick and quit.”

Think about it for a minute. What do you have that God has not either given you directly (Body, soul, mind, emotions, intellect, family, etc) or allowed you to possess (money, cars, stuff, etc). Everything that you have, even what you use to do the work of our Father, is only yours by the Grace of God. To say that salvation is possible through works is a misunderstanding of salvation. We are given the free gift of God of salvation (A job in a coal mine shown above, which I take to be far more realistic and far more loving than the paris hilton analogy) to which we may assent or dissent and if we “remain in [His] love” and if we persevere unto the end we can return to our Fathers house at the end of the day and rest with him.

I dont know about you, but I used to do a “hard” days work alongside my father when I was a child. He would let me help him with things that he could do better and faster and made me feel like it was ME doing something great when the whole time anyone outside could tell it was just him letting me help. THAT is a glimpse of what Gods Grace is. I could not have even helped my father had he not provided me with the means to do so, but because he loved me and wanted me to grow into a good man he allowed me those moments where I could feel pride in my work and also look back later in life and understand just what he did for me.

I will take a Father who allows me to swing a pickaxe shoveling coal next to him in the mine any day of the week. A Father who loves me enough to allow me to feel pride in something that I accomplished, even in the understanding that all of my accomplishments are only due to His Grace. A Father who allows me to show my love through what I attempt (however weak, inept and bumbling those attempts may be) to do for Him.

So in essence, everything I have, everything I am, everything I can be or may possibly do is solely because God has given me the Graces necessary to be/do anything at all. He has also shown his love by telling me that I just need to persevere, to run the race, to listen to him and that will allow his Grace to flow through me and operate within me.

Salvation is by Grace, through Faith, made perfect by works.

FSC
 
His analogy falls down on the Catholic side. Better would be “In Catholicism, you work in a coal mine, your dad got you the job, he gives you the tools, he works beside you, and if necessary he finishes what you cant, and you either choose to remain and persevere with him or you choose to throw down your pick and quit.”
Great Analogy 👍
 
Earlier today I felt like leaving catholicism because I’d heard a couple of people making statements that affirm the idea of salvation by grace alone. Since then I’ve come to believe that this is not true of catholicism and hence I’m not leaving.

See below article.

theologyofandrew.blogspot.com/2009/09/sola-gratia-catholicism-doesnt-teach-it.html
I would hope that no one would make such a critical life decision based on a transient “feeling” and something they heard but had not investigated. :eek:
 
Earlier today I felt like leaving catholicism because I’d heard a couple of people making statements that affirm the idea of salvation by grace alone. Since then I’ve come to believe that this is not true of catholicism and hence I’m not leaving.

See below article.

theologyofandrew.blogspot.com/2009/09/sola-gratia-catholicism-doesnt-teach-it.html
The thing that I have discovered in conversations with protestants is that most of the time we and they have different meanings when we use terms like Faith and Grace.

I personally don’t have a problem when they say “Faith alone” or “Grace alone” because we actually believe this too…Nothing we can do worth anything without Faith or Grace. So all that is of worth begins with and stems from these two…So - if one wishes to include ALL Chrisitan activities stemming from and required by Fairh and from Grace, that is just fine.

The Problem comes in when these people insist that Catholics don’t believe this - that everything of worth stems from our faith…🤷
It generally resolves itself down to semantics and emphasis…

Peace
James
 
I would hope that no one would make such a critical life decision based on a transient “feeling” and something they heard but had not investigated. :eek:
Actually this has been bothering me for a few years and the issue is fundamentally personal to me.

When I started to believe in god I went to a protestant church, said I wanted to be a christian and asked “what do I need to do?”. I was told “do nothing, god will do it for you”. I remained in the protestant church listening to sermons and remained fundamentally ignorant of basic christian doctrine. There I remained a sinner. I wasn’t raised christian and remained ignorant of christian doctrine. People became sick of me and this caused me great personal distress.

Hence, when I hear Grace alone talk I get annoyed.

I like reading church documents so perhaps this is gods grace, but now I put a lot of effort into reading catechism, biblical commentaries and encyclicals. This seems logical to me. Now if god is giving me the grace to read these documents and try to apply them to my life thats fine.

I do this because I believe in order to be holy you need to know what holiness is (when you come from my background as a sinner and as unchurched).

The other way I can explain it is this. How would you like to join a club and have people look down their noses at you because whilst remaining in the club you don’t know how to behave and you’ve been raised in an environment were misbehaving is tolerated.

Then comes the concept of natural law being written on mens hearts. Aka there’s no excuses. Hence the logical conclusion of this is that whilst most of the western world seems to think that contraception is acceptable its really because they are sinners who should know better.

This is where I am having a problem with my faith. Can righteousness be learned? Albiet to learn it and apply it can require grace but can it be learned. Aka is my quest for knowledge a fruit of the holy spirit or am I being legalistic and thus acting contrary to the spirit.
 
Actually this has been bothering me for a few years and the issue is fundamentally personal to me.

When I started to believe in god I went to a protestant church, said I wanted to be a christian and asked “what do I need to do?”. I was told “do nothing, god will do it for you”. I remained in the protestant church listening to sermons and remained fundamentally ignorant of basic christian doctrine. There I remained a sinner. I wasn’t raised christian and remained ignorant of christian doctrine. People became sick of me and this caused me great personal distress.

Hence, when I hear Grace alone talk I get annoyed.

I like reading church documents so perhaps this is gods grace, but now I put a lot of effort into reading catechism, biblical commentaries and encyclicals. This seems logical to me. Now if god is giving me the grace to read these documents and try to apply them to my life thats fine.

I do this because I believe in order to be holy you need to know what holiness is (when you come from my background as a sinner and as unchurched).

The other way I can explain it is this. How would you like to join a club and have people look down their noses at you because whilst remaining in the club you don’t know how to behave and you’ve been raised in an environment were misbehaving is tolerated.

Then comes the concept of natural law being written on mens hearts. Aka there’s no excuses. Hence the logical conclusion of this is that whilst most of the western world seems to think that contraception is acceptable its really because they are sinners who should know better.

This is where I am having a problem with my faith. Can righteousness be learned? Albiet to learn it and apply it can require grace but can it be learned. Aka is my quest for knowledge a fruit of the holy spirit or am I being legalistic and thus acting contrary to the spirit.
This is great Brett. I am glad you are so eager to learn about your faith.

Yes, righteousness can be learned. It is a gift of God through grace, and we also learn to walk in that righteousness by fulfilling the good works that God has prepared for us before the foundation of the world. These works perfect (complete) our faith and sanctify our souls so that we are fit for heaven.

The fruit of the HS, though, like any fruit, grows naturally because the branch is connected to the vine. The more we are rooted in Christ, the more the fruit will grow. If you think about it, an apple does not “strive” as it is hanging there, wishing and willing itself to grow. 😃

It just hangs there, securily attached to the tree, while the tree nourishes it with water and photosynthesis.

John 15:5-11
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

We abide in Christ by encountering HIm in the sacramental life, reading the Scirptures, prayer and fellowship.
 
Yes, its by grace alone, but not a grace that is alone (stealing from Luther!)
Earlier today I felt like leaving catholicism because I’d heard a couple of people making statements that affirm the idea of salvation by grace alone. Since then I’ve come to believe that this is not true of catholicism and hence I’m not leaving.

See below article.

theologyofandrew.blogspot.com/2009/09/sola-gratia-catholicism-doesnt-teach-it.html
Checked out the article and while I believe he has the right idea, one has to correct him in one point, that a portion of each work has salvific value, and that that portion is indeed a grace. Let me explain.

First off, works are necessary, in that Paul says God has saved us to walk in them (good works). God wouldn’t save us then say, well, this fellow’s saved, it doesn’t matter any more.

Next-

Paul says that God works in us both to Will and to Do. Thus all works done by us pass through these 2 stages, willing and doing. Now it is the assent of the will to work that actually saves, by keeping our faith in a “living” condition. Also we gain merit (worthiness of being rewarded) by becoming more an image of Christ, our assent resembling His obedience.

Whether the final works actually come about, and in what manner, is the province of God.

However, without God’s working in us to will, we would and could not work. Thus it is in this that it is a Grace. So at least part of what we would consider works are a saving grace.

The resulting works themselves are channels of God’s grace, both to us and to others. But they really, by themselves, cannot cause salvation.

I believe this explanation fits the teaching of the NT and is consonant with the churches teaching.

peace
steve
 
This is where I am having a problem with my faith. Can righteousness be learned? Albiet to learn it and apply it can require grace but can it be learned. Aka is my quest for knowledge a fruit of the holy spirit or am I being legalistic and thus acting contrary to the spirit.
Yes, righteousness can be learned. This was the point of God needing to give man the commandments, for example, because man had become ignorant of his moral obligations since, at the fall, he had denied Gods authority within himself, taking on the role of God by determining right and wrong for himself. And this is the very reason sin abounds in this world. So, unless we learn righteousness, we can’t pursue it.

But learning *of *it wasn’t enough. Man did more than simply reject the righteousness that God created him to have. Man rejected God, Himself, as his God. And the Spirit of God indwelling man is the very thing the New Covenant promises-the very thing man needs in order to be able to obey the Law without being legalistic. Here’s one of the most important New Covenant prophesies from Jer 31:

**“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” **
 
Yes, righteousness can be learned. This was the point of God needing to give man the commandments, for example, because man had become ignorant of his moral obligations since, at the fall, he had denied Gods authority within himself, taking on the role of God by determining right and wrong for himself. And this is the very reason sin abounds in this world. So, unless we learn righteousness, we can’t pursue it.

But learning *of *it wasn’t enough. Man did more than simply reject the righteousness that God created him to have. Man rejected God, Himself, as his God. And the Spirit of God indwelling man is the very thing the New Covenant promises-the very thing man needs in order to be able to obey the Law without being legalistic. Here’s one of the most important New Covenant prophesies from Jer 31:

**“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” **
St Polycarp says: “By his grace we are saved, not of our own doing but by the will of god through Jesus Christ”

Thanks for your contribution, study is important to learn rightousness and to know the laws of the new covenant.
 
…because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
Knowing His forgiveness seems to be knowledge of God, and thus of knowledge of Righteousness.

So it appears that the study and practice of Mercy should be our goal.

peace
Steve
 
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