Grace and Justification

[MT1926]

I was on another thread speaking with an Evangelical and he brought up 2 points that interested me. However, when I asked him to further define his statements he never responded. Hoping someone here could help give me some insight into where he was going with these statements, to help me understand the point he was trying to make.

He stated:

“Catholics seem to camp out on “grace” as if the sacramental sense of the word is the only one worth talking about in this particular conversation. Protestants, on the other hand, can go on all day about several different kinds of grace, sometimes describing several in great detail within the Order of Salvation.”

Could someone help me out and define the different kinds of grace.

He also stated:

“The Catholic perspective typically takes it for granted that “justification” means the same thing every time the word is used, whereas a Protestant is more likely to use a lexical tool to show you that it can mean any of three different things depending on context, and then attempt to show you that it’s being used one way here and a different way there.”

What is the lexical tool and what are the three different types of justification?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Catholic4Christ]

As far as grace goes - I don’t think it’s fair to say that Catholics “only” talk about grace in the sacramental sense. I’d recommend reading up on Actual vs Sanctifying Grace.

Sanctifying Grace - communicated primarily through the sacraments - is the grace inside our souls, which is why Catholics talk about being “in a state of grace.”

Actual Grace is just that - the grace that acts on our souls. For instance, the desire to go to Mass or Confession, or to do a good deed, comes from actual grace.

At least I think I got that right. There’s lots of more detailed literature on the topic.

 

[John_Martin]

Here are my two cents:
Justification means you are “not guilty”, of anything, and therefore are a “good citizen” of your people in your “society”. In the case of the Church, you are a “good citizen of the People of God, of the Kingdom established by God with Christ as our King”. You are “good”, and your deeds are “good”, “righteous”, “just”.

At least one meaning of justification by protestors is that of a judicial ruling of “not guilty”, even though you have done the crime and still have not changed your nature into being a “good citizen”. It is claimed you are “Justified by faith”, or “justified by Grace through Faith”, meaning that because you believe God covers your sins, he calls you a good person because he is actually looking at Jesus when ruling on your fate. But nothing has changed in you, only that God pretends you are good, righteous, justified. I am writing rather harshly, but, this is what is happening. Grace is simply God choosing to favor you if you ask him to.

We, however consider Grace to be a real thing God puts inside us, a new disposition to use the virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity, also put in us. So, with this new disposition poured into us in Baptism, renewed in fullness at Confirmation, and re-vitalized in Reconciliation, we really are now “good”, and with the use of the virtues, we really can and do act virtuously, good, just. When we say we are justified, we mean that we are created anew as “good”, while before we were outside of citizenship in this Kingdom. Of course, we need mercy also; we sinned so that is what God overlooks and removes from his sight, so that now we can focus on this new life as new people in his family, as his children.

In this, God does not wait for us to ask him, but comes seeking us, to redeem us. He puts Christ in front of our eyes to see and hear him say “Come to me, and I will give you rest.” It looks desirable, so we ask, “Would you accept me, Baptize me, give me your Spirit with Grace and Life? Could I be part of your Kingdom?” And he does, he breathes his Spirit into us to create a new creature, a “good citizen”, "justified in saying, ‘I am one of your People’ . " And with this Spirit of Christ, Grace now penetrating our souls, we have a life of “just works” to do as we grow in the use of this Grace, until we are fully grown like our older brother and King, Jesus, and he comes to take us home.

 

[littlestsouls2]

… Could someone help me out and define the different kinds of grace.

Fr. Hardon will help you! He is brilliant and concise. Check out chapter 2: therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_002.htm#02

… “The Catholic perspective typically takes it for granted that “justification” means the same thing every time the word is used, whereas a Protestant is more likely to use a lexical tool to show you that it can mean any of three different things depending on context, and then attempt to show you that it’s being used one way here and a different way there.”

What is the lexical tool and what are the three different types of justification?

Lexical tool? I could only guess.

Check out chapter 7 of the above link.

 

[ichabode]

As Catholics we do indeed focus on the word grace and its link to the sacraments. There is good reason for that. Sacramental grace is the method in which God has chosen in the ordinary way to communicate His life to the Christian. The sacrament of baptism is the springboard into God’s family, and after that you can receive “saving” or “sanctifying” or “habitual” grace from God in two ways either through the sacraments or prayer which would include your acts of obedience to God through love aka charity.

The majority of graces would come through prayer, but God has reserved with purposeful intent that sacramental grace (that is God’s life poured into the Christian in the New Law and bound to the 7 sacraments) not be a grace that the Christian could simply pray for and receive. Jesus said unless you eat the flesh of the son of man you have no life within you. It is not Catholics that put the focus so strongly on receiving grace through the sacraments but our Lord and Savior Himself.

When Catholics speak about Justification it normally encompasses the initial Justification of the sinner and then afterwards the life of sinner onward aka sanctification. At initial Justification we say sinner only in regards to concupiscence remains and the Christian has a weakness to sin, but not that there is any actual sin in the believer.

Protestants will most often only talk about Justification in the framework of initial Justification, and that is complete then and there and no process of sanctification in the believer. This is because the reckon Justification as imputed a declaratory, but not intrinsic and infused into the believer.

The idea of Protestants using Justification in multiple ways it normally done only to combat James where he says, “You are not saved by faith alone”. To wiggle out of what the Bible actually say they will often claim that James is speaking about a Justification before men and not a saving faith. The Lexicon would be an English to Greek and Hebrew dictionary.

Of course James says before that “will this faith save you”, so James was talking about saving faith, and the OT passage James is referring to was when Abraham went to sacrifice his son. When Abraham did this all the men stayed at the foot of the mountain it was only him and his son, so this is not an act of justification before men.

 

[thephilosopher6]

I was on another thread speaking with an Evangelical and he brought up 2 points that interested me. However, when I asked him to further define his statements he never responded. Hoping someone here could help give me some insight into where he was going with these statements, to help me understand the point he was trying to make.

He stated:

“Catholics seem to camp out on “grace” as if the sacramental sense of the word is the only one worth talking about in this particular conversation. Protestants, on the other hand, can go on all day about several different kinds of grace, sometimes describing several in great detail within the Order of Salvation.”

Could someone help me out and define the different kinds of grace.

He also stated:

“The Catholic perspective typically takes it for granted that “justification” means the same thing every time the word is used, whereas a Protestant is more likely to use a lexical tool to show you that it can mean any of three different things depending on context, and then attempt to show you that it’s being used one way here and a different way there.”

What is the lexical tool and what are the three different types of justification?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

The word grace in Greek is charis (χαρις) it literally means a favor. God is doing us a favor, he is bestowing upon us his mercy and kindness. He washes our sins away.

Now, in Catholic theology there are different kinds of graces. Sanctifying grace which God gives us through the sacraments is the grace that saves us. We receive this grace through sacraments such as baptism, confession, the Eucharist, etc. There is also actual grace which trys to help us stay within sanctifying grace or lead us towards it. In fact, the very first grace enacted upon us is actual grace. This actual grace leads us towards faith. So, even faith itself is a gift that God gives to us through the favor of grace.

Justification means being right before God. When God enacts his favor upon us by washing ours souls clean of sin, we are truly justified. We do not have anymore sin on our soul until we decide to sin again which usually happens due to the lasting consequences of original sin.

 

[MT1926]

I’d recommend reading up on Actual vs Sanctifying Grace.

Thanks I will. I still have a long way to go in my Faith journey.

 

[MT1926]

Here are my two cents:

At least one meaning of justification by protestors is that of a judicial ruling of “not guilty”, even though you have done the crime and still have not changed your nature into being a “good citizen”. It is claimed you are “Justified by faith”, or “justified by Grace through Faith”, meaning that because you believe God covers your sins, he calls you a good person because he is actually looking at Jesus when ruling on your fate. But nothing has changed in you, only that God pretends you are good, righteous, justified. I am writing rather harshly, but, this is what is happening. Grace is simply God choosing to favor you if you ask him to.

This actually kind of makes sense to me. Not the how or the why but the concept. The thought process of “God covers your sins, he calls you a good person because he is actually looking at Jesus when ruling on your fate” makes sense. However, not real sure where this concept is taught in the Bible, maybe someone can hone me in on some verses.

Anyway that’s 1.

Thanks again

 

[MT1926]

Fr. Hardon will help you! He is brilliant and concise. Check out chapter 2: therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_002.htm#02

Thanks for the link. It was a little over my head on the first read. I will have to go through it again as I learn.

From what I read, was the Evangelical backwards or just didn’t understand the Catholic side?

He stated:

“Catholics seem to camp out on “grace” as if the sacramental sense of the word is the only one worth talking about in this particular conversation. Protestants, on the other hand, can go on all day about several different kinds of grace, sometimes describing several in great detail within the Order of Salvation.”

From your link Father Hardon states:
Kinds. How many kinds of grace are there? The answer depends on what we mean by “kinds.” But we may mention now graces that are external to us (to our minds, wills, souls) and graces that are internal; grace that is uncreated and grace that is created; grace that is habitual and grace that is actual (a transient, “come-and-go aid)

Do Protestants “go on all day” about the same Grace Father is presenting or do you think he meant Catholics “go on all day”?

 

[MT1926]

Jesus said unless you eat the flesh of the son of man you have no life within you. It is not Catholics that put the focus so strongly on receiving grace through the sacraments but our Lord and Savior Himself.

That is an awesome statement. I look forward to the day when I am knowledgeable enough to put forth that statement with confidence.

When Catholics speak about Justification it normally encompasses the initial Justification of the sinner and then afterwards the life of sinner onward aka sanctification. At initial Justification we say sinner only in regards to concupiscence remains and the Christian has a weakness to sin, but not that there is any actual sin in the believer.

Protestants will most often only talk about Justification in the framework of initial Justification, and that is complete then and there and no process of sanctification in the believer. This is because the reckon Justification as imputed a declaratory, but not intrinsic and infused into the believer.

I think sanctification is the big road block in the communication with non-Catholics about justification. Can you lead me to some good Bible references to sanctification?

The idea of Protestants using Justification in multiple ways it normally done only to combat James where he says, “You are not saved by faith alone”. To wiggle out of what the Bible actually say they will often claim that James is speaking about a Justification before men and not a saving faith. The Lexicon would be an English to Greek and Hebrew dictionary.

Thanks. Does the Lexicon allow for multiple definitions of the Greek and Hebrew text?

Of course James says before that “will this faith save you”, so James was talking about saving faith, and the OT passage James is referring to was when Abraham went to sacrifice his son. When Abraham did this all the men stayed at the foot of the mountain it was only him and his son, so this is not an act of justification before men.

I never noticed "all the men stayed at the foot of the mountain it was only him and his son, so this is not an act of justification before men", thanks for pointing that out. I do my best to learn something new every day.

 

[rcwitness]

I thinkyou your friend is getting caught up in what he thinks individuals “talk about” instead of learning what our faith officially professes. Nor is it likely that he has spoken with thousands of Catholics who all articulate the same understanding of these things. And even more unlikely is that he has spoken with as many “protestants” who all have the same definitions and explanations.

He is forgetting that from the beginning of Protestantism, there were disagreements and divisions over matters of faith and practice among these men.

Grace is necessary for men to see, accept, and endure in the life of God. We are freely Justified and need to endure against trials, temptations, and hardships to remain justified. We need to love Jesus and keep His commandments if we are just in His eyes.

 

[MT1926]

The word grace in Greek is charis (χαρις) it literally means a favor. God is doing us a favor, he is bestowing upon us his mercy and kindness. He washes our sins away.

Thanks. I really enjoy when people point out what the Greek word means. It helps me clear my mind of the multiple definitions our English language can have for a word.

Now, in Catholic theology there are different kinds of graces. Sanctifying grace which God gives us through the sacraments is the grace that saves us. We receive this grace through sacraments such as baptism, confession, the Eucharist, etc. There is also actual grace which trys to help us stay within sanctifying grace or lead us towards it. In fact, the very first grace enacted upon us is actual grace. This actual grace leads us towards faith. So, even faith itself is a gift that God gives to us through the favor of grace.

This statement is actually mind blowing. :clapping:

It never made sense to me when someone would say you have to have “Faith” first to receive the free gift of God’s Grace, which there is nothing you could ever do to merit this free gift. And by the way, Faith in this instance is in no way a work.

God’s Grace leading us to Faith, making the Faith itself a gift from God sounds so much better.

 

[MT1926]

I thinkyou your friend is getting caught up in what he thinks individuals “talk about” instead of learning what our faith officially professes. Nor is it likely that he has spoken with thousands of Catholics who all articulate the same understanding of these things. And even more unlikely is that he has spoken with as many “protestants” who all have the same definitions and explanations.

Thanks for the response.

Agreed, which is why I do my best to not jump to the same conclusions. I have found that the 3 lettered word “WHY?” can be very helpful in these conversations. I do my best to take the time to allow the other person to explain what they mean when they make statements like this. The hard part is when you are having a conversation on the web 9 times out of 10 when I ask “WHY?” the other person is never heard from again.

 

[rcwitness]

Thanks for the response.

Agreed, which is why I do my best to not jump to the same conclusions. I have found that the 3 lettered word “WHY?” can be very helpful in these conversations. I do my best to take the time to allow the other person to explain what they mean when they make statements like this. The hard part is when you are having a conversation on the web 9 times out of 10 when I ask “WHY?” the other person is never heard from again.

Yes! I have learned how to have a good discussion if we ask questions. It shows that we are genuinely interested in the faith of the other person and that we have hope their faith is genuine, without assuming bad things.

 

[thephilosopher6]

This statement is actually mind blowing. :clapping:

It never made sense to me when someone would say you have to have “Faith” first to receive the free gift of God’s Grace, which there is nothing you could ever do to merit this free gift. And by the way, Faith in this instance is in no way a work.

God’s Grace leading us to Faith, making the Faith itself a gift from God sounds so much better.

I felt the same way. But when I started to study theology and found this out it all started to make sense to me. You know, Saint Augustine seems to have struggled with this too. I recommend you read his work On the Predestination of the Saints where he explains faith and grace so well. It helped me understand that faith itself is a free gift from God.

I also think this is where Protestants fall short. Protestants always emphasize the free gift of grace. Then they bash Catholics claiming we teach a works based salvation (which is very far from the truth). Yet, the way they present faith they make it seem like it is our own doing. Like it is all about us. But it is not. Catholics are actually the ones teaching about the free gift of grace. Because even we realize that grace is the first thing given to us which leads us to the gift of faith. Not that faith is the first thing we must do to receive grace as many Protestants seem to present it.

 

[ltwin]

Protestants will most often only talk about Justification in the framework of initial Justification, and that is complete then and there and no process of sanctification in the believer. This is because the reckon Justification as imputed a declaratory, but not intrinsic and infused into the believer.

This is not accurate at all. Protestants do believe in sanctification, and we talk about it all the time. However, we do not combine justification and sanctification. We see them as two separate processes. Justification, which occurs simultaneously with regeneration, is completely God’s doing. Man has no part in his own justification. Sanctification, however, is an ongoing, progressive work of the Holy Spirit that man cooperates in by cultivating the spiritual disciplines, such as prayer.

 

[Kliska]

He stated:

“Catholics seem to camp out on “grace” as if the sacramental sense of the word is the only one worth talking about in this particular conversation. Protestants, on the other hand, can go on all day about several different kinds of grace, sometimes describing several in great detail within the Order of Salvation.”

Could someone help me out and define the different kinds of grace.

I am just offering a guess, but perhaps he meant the kind of conversation between a Calvinist and a non-Calvinist over things like “enabling grace” vs. “irresistible grace?”

He also stated:

“The Catholic perspective typically takes it for granted that “justification” means the same thing every time the word is used, whereas a Protestant is more likely to use a lexical tool to show you that it can mean any of three different things depending on context, and then attempt to show you that it’s being used one way here and a different way there.”

What is the lexical tool and what are the three different types of justification?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

I could also hazard a guess here, but the talk of “it can mean any of three different things” shows he had a specific reference he was speaking of and I’m not sure what the point was or what source was being referenced.

 

[MT1926]

This is not accurate at all. Protestants do believe in sanctification, and we talk about it all the time. However, we do not combine justification and sanctification. We see them as two separate processes. Justification, which occurs simultaneously with regeneration, is completely God’s doing. Man has no part in his own justification. Sanctification, however, is an ongoing, progressive work of the Holy Spirit that man cooperates in by cultivating the spiritual disciplines, such as prayer.

Thanks for joining in, and thanks for the response.

Any chance you would be able to help me clarify the original question on the 3 different meanings of Justification?

He also stated:

“The Catholic perspective typically takes it for granted that “justification” means the same thing every time the word is used, whereas a Protestant is more likely to use a lexical tool to show you that it can mean any of three different things depending on context, and then attempt to show you that it’s being used one way here and a different way there.”

What is the lexical tool and what are the three different types of justification?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Thanks again

 

[Kliska]

Any chance you would be able to help me clarify the original question on the 3 different meanings of Justification?

Is your previous conversation with this individual here on CAF?

 

[MT1926]

Is your previous conversation with this individual here on CAF?

Yes it was. He did finally respond to my question yesterday after I already started this thread. But left me with more questions. So I was hoping someone else might give further insight.