Grace & Justification

[simbagizmo]

…Cont

Well those are not the scripture verses that I was talking about. But nonetheless this is a good one. But you have to keep going in that chapter in the book of St. John.

John 6
27 Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

This is something else we have to do in order that God will raise us on the last day; and that is to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Just as Jesus was not literal about physically being Born again in John 3, He was not literally a light in John 9, He is not literally a door in John 10, not literally a shepherd in John 10, not literally a vine in John 15, He is not literally bread in John 6 and was not literal about eating his body and drinking his blood. John 6 was a metaphor using what the people needed physically and relating it to the belief they needed literally. This is the same in John 4 when he used water as a metaphor to the woman that came looking to get water. See the similarities betweent he stories.

John 4.
Women can needing water for physical life. Jesus sees her and uses her physical requirement for water as a metaphor for her salvation requirement for belief in Him. Women needs water, Jesus says do not work that that water, but drink from my water that give eternal life. This is not physical well of water He is talking about, but Faith in Him. She understood His message and went to get others to tell them she found the Savior.

John 6
People came and needed to eat. Jesus sees their physical requirement for food and uses this as a metaphor for their salvation requirement for belief in Him. People need food. Jesus says do not work for that food, but for food that gives eternal life. He is not talking about physical food, but Belief in Him. This is actually said directly when the people asked what work they must do to get this food that they will never hunger again. Jesus response was that they are only to believe in Him. The eating and drinking of body and blood in again a metaphor of receiving His teaching. The people that took him literally about this were disgusted and walked away. They did not get the metaphor. But Peter got it when he said, “where would we go, you have the words of eternal life”. He got it, that the eating and drinking Jesus was talking about was His words and teaching.

I was actually talking about these verses from St. Matthew. So along with eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, we must also do what Jesus tells us in the following verses. You see, if we do not follow the Commandments, we cannot receive Jesus in Holy Communion. Then that will mean taking Him unworthily. It would have to be a mortal sin however to make it unworthy to receive Jesus.

 

[simbagizmo]

I was actually talking about these verses from St. Matthew. So along with eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, we must also do what Jesus tells us in the following verses. You see, if we do not follow the Commandments, we cannot receive Jesus in Holy Communion. Then that will mean taking Him unworthily. It would have to be a mortal sin however to make it unworthy to receive Jesus.

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher,
what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good?
There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into
life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, "
’You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall
not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall
love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have
observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go,
sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have
treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mat 19:16-21

Here are verses where Jesus states that we must “be perfect” just as our Father in Heaven is perfect. This is one of His commandments of Love. Not everyone is perfect like this. Not all Catholics are perfect and not even Protestants who “accepted Jesus” as their Lord & Savior. So how can you say that you are guarenteed eternal salvation if Jesus is telling us to “be perfect?”

Please read that passage above again. What does Jesus say you must do to be perfect?

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

See, doing all that other stuff was not being perfect, because Jesus knows that no one has kept all the Law all the time. God did not make the Law to show how we could be righteous, but to show how sinfull we are. But verse 21 states how the man could be perfect. Hold nothing as treasure on earth and “come and follow me”. Faith, belief, this is what Jesus is talking about. An active decision to put his faith not in himself and earthly things, but to give it all up and put Faith in Jesus. Then he also says to Follow Him, to act on his word and obey his teaching. By Faith he would be perfected, Justified to God

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[simbagizmo]

I agree. Just believing in something doesn’t necessarily make it true. That is why OSAS is not true. And you believing it does not make it true. We can all lose our salvation so how can it be true that once saved always saved? It can’t.

I think I see where we disconnect. I do not think we have the same definition of Faith.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

According to Paul, Faith is the assurance of heaven, things hoped for, and the obedience of God’s Word, things not seen.

Here is the most concise definition that I have heard and go by.

Faith is obedience to God’s Word, regardless of circumstance or understanding. Faith is living in full trust of God’s Grace when we sin.

This also falls in line with James, because one of Faith is reborn for Good works and will do good works by instinct. If one does not show good works, he would not be in Faith.

The difference I see between us on works is that for me, good works is done to show the love of Jesus. I do not do them to show or prove my Faith. God already knows my heart. I also do not do them in order to earn my salvation, or Grace for my salvation. I have received salvation through my Faith

If you are in Faith, you are assured. Can one in Faith ever fall out of Faith? I say no. One of Faith, when pressed to fall out of Faith would respond like Peter, “where else shall I go. You have the Words of eternal life”. If one falls out of faith, I believe they would be one like in John 6, that turned from Jesus when he spoke about the eating of His body. Jesus knew they were not believers to begin with. And one that seemed to be of faith and falls away, I would say he was never in Faith. As Jesus says, they come fron us but are not of us. This is also why Paul tells us to test ourselves if we are in the Faith.

You may say that you do not believe John 3:16 or any other verse that states assured salvation to those that have Faith, but this is the constant message in the New Testament. And the writers do not seem to be unsure of thier salvation. Can you give me scripture that shows how one of Faith loses their salvation?

 

[nkbeth]

=== PART 1 of 3 ===
Simbagizmo,

According to Paul, Faith is the assurance of heaven, things hoped for, and the obedience of God’s Word, things not seen.

“Faith is obedience to God’s Word, regardless of circumstance or understanding. Faith is living in full trust of God’s Grace when we sin”

This also falls in line with James, because one of Faith is reborn for Good works and will do good works by instinct. If one does not show good works, he would not be in Faith.

---

Faith, belief, this is what Jesus is talking about. An active decision to put his faith not in himself and earthly things, but to give it all up and put Faith in Jesus. Then he also says to Follow Him, to act on his word and obey his teaching. By Faith he would be perfected, Justified to God

My Bible (Catholic Douay-Rheims) says:

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.

I think it means something like this: Faith (only possible by grace) is our belief in God’s truths that we cannot see, on the evidence of God who teaches them. Faith stands under (sub-stance) Hope as its foundation; Hope (not certainty) is for things (God, eternal life) that we must first believe in by God’s grace.

By itself (faith without charity) belief does not guarantee good works, love of God, or salvation. Faith must be LIVED freely by charity (our love of God) during our lives, by His grace (which we can lose, and He will restore if we ask). Salvation (a union of love with God) is the GOAL of our life-long love (a loving union with God).​

If I understand YOUR idea of real faith (in my own lengthy words):

“Faith is a God-given one-time-but-lasting unconditional commitment (accepted by God) to trust in God’s grace and obey God’s Word (explained further in what follows). This means believing/assenting to all Christ teaches, trusting Him and not man or earthly things. It also means following Him, that is (flowing NECESSARILY from our faith) INSTINCTIVELY loving Him, obeying Him and doing good works out of love for Him. In faith this commitment is always combined with/results in an 100% assurance from God (CERTAINTY) that our commitment is permanent, that our sins will be forgiven as needed (even if we don’t ask?) that we will do needed good works, and that WE ARE SAVED, right now and forever”

I strongly disagree with SOME of this, as I’ll explain below

— You imply that if we REALLY have Faith (not some false assurance that is not from God) then good works needed for salvation flow necessarily and instinctively from Faith

But the very words “following Christ” mean we too are taking up our cross, deliberately watching Him and staying close to Him, step by step. I cannot believe that a one-time commitment (no matter how deep and heart-felt) will make me take up my cross and follow step by step "instinctively” and by guarantee (necessity and assurance). I can’t believe God wants this either.

God loves me and I want to love Him back FREELY at each moment of my life, no matter how much I believed and loved Him the first time. God makes this possible to me! By His wondrous grace, my love for God is free, not by instinct. If I fail in my love (which is possible at any time) He forgives me again and again, if I ask Him each time.

SALVATION is an eternal and unimaginable union of LOVE between God and a human being (we cannot really define salvation, but this much is true). Our free choices (whether to believe, love, or obey Him) throughout the WHOLE LIFE HE GIVES US may end in (by God’s judgment) a rejection of God. This would mean we don’t LOVE God and therefore we really DO NOT WANT SALVATION. Those who go to Hell reject the God of heaven, and they will not get Him; there can be no more horrific fate.

Out of love of God we should do good works for salvation, because it is our ultimate loving union with God.

— St. Paul on the Love of God surpassing all else (including (dead) faith)

St. Paul praises the Love of God (Charity) above all other virtues and deeds that we do without Charity. Without this love we are nothing: faith is dead and the most stupendous works are worthless.

1 Corinthians 13 2 If I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing

Our life-long love of God is “as it were” the beginning of our salvation (that beginning is not just one moment of commitment).

 

[nkbeth]

=== PART 2 of 3 ===
— Christ’s first commandment: Love God with your whole being
Luke 10 25-28 “…behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life? But he said to him: What is written in the law? How readest thou? He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with all thy strength and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said to him: Thou hast answered right. This do: and thou shalt live”.

Christ COMMANDS us to love God because He knows we seek happiness, but may be walking the wrong way. If we obey Him, (even imperfectly) we begin to understand what salvation means.

Christ wants us to give ourselves over to Him, not just once but again and again, until (by His grace) we are entirely His.

This commandment of Love contains all other commandments and good works. If we do no good works, we don’t have this Love.

— Faith, Living and Dead (Faith and Charity)

We (Catholics) too think that “faith alone” is sufficient for salvation, but only “living faith”, which includes charity. Charity requires faith, but charity can be lost, leaving a dead faith behind.

“Faith in Scripture usually means “living faith”.

Charity requires Faith as its foundation. First people must KNOW (by faith, “through a glass darkly”) what Jesus has done for us and asks of us. Afterwards (if they are willing) God’s grace draws them to love the One that they know. Faith and Charity may come together; a man may (by God’s grace) immediately love the One that he at last knows.

We live by Faith only when we have Charity. Abraham obeyed God by living His faith in a supreme act of Love.

St. James says “For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.” and “Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble”. The body can EXIST without the soul, and faith can EXIST without charity, but they are dead in both cases.

Nothing is called “dead” if it never really existed at all, but someone just thought it did. “Dead faith” is not faith that “was never there in the first place” – that is only imaginary faith and it clearly not what St. James means.

=== Interpreting Scripture on Faith and Charity
There are two truths in scripture that seem to oppose each other:

The sufficiency of Faith for salvation. (believe and be saved)
The sufficiency of Charity for salvation. (Love of God sufficient for eternal life)

You (as I understand it) resolve this problem by saying that Charity (and good works) spring forth of necessity from (your kind of) Faith. This seems to say that Christ’s clear commandments to Love God (and other commandments) are (1) obeyed out of necessity because we have faith, or 2) obeyed freely and deliberately but only ONCE, at the moment we make the commitment of faith. Faith is sufficient for salvation, since it brings all that is needed.

But we (Catholics) resolve the problem preserving Christ’s commandment to love, St. Paul’s praise of Love (Charity) over dead Faith, St. James clear statements that Faith may be either living or dead, AND the passages that show faith is sufficient.

We think we must obey Christ’s commandments in a straightforward way. Like a child before Christmas, we must 1) obey (“be good”) freely again and again 2) expect no one will make it always easy 2) be sure of help if we ask for it and 3) know we will be rewarded only when Christmas comes. But in fact OUR “being good” is freely loving the God who loves us (the God from whom all goodness comes) and OUR reward is an eternal loving union with Him. Finally OUR new Christmas is our death: when (if will still love Him) we’ll know why the angels sing.

We agree that , but it must be a living faith (as explained earlier). Scripture often says “faith” meaning “living faith” – as “man” usually means a living man, not a dead man in Hell.

We thank God for wondrously making us able to freely “love Him back” at every moment of our lives. We thank Christ for His love for us, His death on the cross that made it possible not only to have our sins forgiven, but to love (in some small measure) as He does. In the old law “Love God with all your heart…” could not be fulfilled; now it can be, only imperfectly on earth, but perfectly in the heaven Christ won for us.

Our love of God requires humility, for all that is good is done by His love (through His grace); all is from Him, not from us. But – by God’s mystery – our wills are still free. God rewards our freely loving Him with Himself; and leaves those rejecting Him to the punishment they chose for themselves.

 

[nkbeth]

=== 3 of 3 ===
— Trust in God’s Grace when we sin —
You say “Faith is living in full trust of God’s Grace when we sin”. I agree, but I do not mean that I trust in God to save me no matter what I do, or to forgive me even if I don’t ask. I do mean two things: a) I trust in God to help me each time I fall; if I reach out He will be there. But I must freely reach out. b) If I have the virtue of Hope I trust that God will save me if I cooperate. I also trust that God will provide me with help that is so great that I need have no fear of my own weakness. But I must hold tightly to God’s hand (by love), or take His hand again (as He takes mine) when I slip. However, if I think that I know I am saved, that God doesn’t ask me to “hold tight”, then I have presumption, not Hope. (Of course I also trust in God to help me and others in all things).

— “Assurance” of faith, works, and salvation
I think “assurance of our faith and salvation” can lead to presumption, pride, and carelessness. God requires our cooperation even in faith. If I felt 100% assured of my future faith, my sufficient good works, and my salvation, I would have a hard time not feeling proud of my acceptance of God’s gift of faith and the HUGE commitment I made. I also think I might become careless about doing good and asking for forgiveness. How would I KNOW if “I didn’t really have faith in the first place”, since I still FEEL so ASSURED? We KNOW that God will save us if we believe and do what He requires. But how dare we think that we KNOW that WE will go to heaven?

God doesn’t make a private revelation to us! All we have (if we think we have this faith) is the assurance we FEEL, first that we have interpreted scripture correctly, and secondly that we believe and love God, and committed to do so forever . Our assurance of our salvation is only what we’ve concluded and also FEEL! We may be right about our belief and love, but still very wrong that our salvation is 100% certain. The main problem is that our commitment is our heart-felt promise, but not His guarantee; we can fail in our commitment just as we can fail in love or belief at any time. We are sinners and can always sin.

Our trust in God should be humble, as little children, walking with Him hand in hand, reaching for Him when we fall, and knowing that He will save us - but only IF we don’t intentionally run away and never come back when He calls.

We cannot be sure of our faith or our sufficient good works or our salvation; we can only be sure of God.

“Lord I believe, Help my unbelief” Mark 9 23

It may sometimes be good to feel sure of our CURRENT faith (to “hold fast”); but we need to be humble. Our Lord at one time called the Apostles “O ye of little faith”; they had faith, but not much at that moment. St. Peter showed His faith (as you said) when He said , “where else shall I go. You have the Words of eternal life”. But later Christ foretold that Peter would deny Him three times. Then, AFTER this prediction, St. Peter said oh no, he was QUITE SURE that He would never deny Christ. Of course we know that Peter did deny Him three times, before Christ was crucified. Peter was a holy man of great faith, and loved his Master very much. But don’t you think his faith (as well as his charity) wavered terribly when he denied Christ?

Of course Our Lord understood St. Peter’s weeping, and gave him the forgiveness he desired.

– Rough notes about interpreting scripture passages on faith and salvation

“believe and be saved” “by faith we are saved” “Christ is my Savior”

Sometimes:
• “believe” means believing with love of God (living faith)
• “believe” doesn’t mean believe (and love) and it lasts forever; it means believe and love freely through your life; die believing (and loving) God.
• “Christ is my Savior” doesn’t mean I’m saved at one moment in my life. It means He is the one that causes my salvation, if I cooperate with Him in the life that He gave me just for that purpose. The graces that come from His death on the Cross are sufficient to save all men, but we can resist them.

Related Example:

• Exercise and Have a longer and healthier life. This doesn’t mean exercise strenuously for one day, it means exercise as your doctor says your whole life through

Both faith and charity are things we must maintain and grow all our lives, by freely accepting God’s grace at each moment, as we are able, and asking for forgiveness when we are not. That is why God gave us our lives.