Grace/Law?

[DPMartin]

What is more important; the soul or the law? Is it not the way of the Lord to forgive? Then what is the Law for? To know what was forgiven? Or is it for those who are subject to wrath, anger, hatred? And what it the Law, for those who are subject to Grace? Could it be, Grace itself?

 

[Cristian_B]

What is more important; the soul or the law? Is it not the way of the Lord to forgive? Then what is the Law for? To know what was forgiven? Or is it for those who are subject to wrath, anger, hatred? And what it the Law, for those who are subject to Grace? Could it be, Grace itself?

Without the Law there would be no sin. Without sin there would be no need of Jesus for us. Without Jesus we would have no Savior. Without the Law we would need no savior.

Also, the Law tells us what sin is. The Law points to Jesus. The Law is a mirror. You have a spot on your face, you look into the mirror, you see your spot and then you go to clean yourself. So is with the Law. You look at it, you see your sin, and you go to Jesus to clean yourself.

By the way, we will be judged by the Law (of liberty). In the end all will be judged by the Law.

Also, the Law puts everyone under the penalty of sin so everyone can feel the grace and mercy of God, which is a wonderful experience.

Anyway, this is what I remember about it.

edit: what I do know is that the Law was so important to God that He didn’t end it even though this cost the life of His Son … so the Law is very important to God

 

[diggerdomer]

What is more important; the soul or the law? Is it not the way of the Lord to forgive? Then what is the Law for? To know what was forgiven? Or is it for those who are subject to wrath, anger, hatred? And what it the Law, for those who are subject to Grace? Could it be, Grace itself?

the soul

 

[DPMartin]

Without the Law there would be no sin. Without sin there would be no need of Jesus for us. Without Jesus we would have no Savior. Without the Law we would need no savior.

Also, the Law tells us what sin is. The Law points to Jesus. The Law is a mirror. You have a spot on your face, you look into the mirror, you see your spot and then you go to clean yourself. So is with the Law. You look at it, you see your sin, and you go to Jesus to clean yourself.

By the way, we will be judged by the Law (of liberty). In the end all will be judged by the Law.

Also, the Law puts everyone under the penalty of sin so everyone can feel the grace and mercy of God, which is a wonderful experience.

Anyway, this is what I remember about it.

edit: what I do know is that the Law was so important to God that He didn’t end it even though this cost the life of His Son … so the Law is very important to God

Cristain B
thanks for the reply

Are you saying that man serves the Law? Or are you saying that the Law serves man? And what exactly is the “law of liberty”? Liberty does imply that one is liberated from something.

 

[DPMartin]

the soul

diggerdomer

thanks for the reply

Since it is the soul, then why did the Lord our God, give the Law?

 

[diggerdomer]

diggerdomer

thanks for the reply

Since it is the soul, then why did the Lord our God, give the Law?

Different people have different theories. For St. Paul, the law was a necessary (and temporary) corrective because the people did not follow God as they should.

 

[DPMartin]

Different people have different theories. For St. Paul, the law was a necessary (and temporary) corrective because the people did not follow God as they should.

diggerdomer

thanks for the reply

Yes but only One is able to fulfill the Commandments and the Law to the Lord God’s satisfaction. (Jesus Christ) And it can be presumed, that God already knew this when he gave Law and Commandment. So why give to those who could not fulfill?

 

[Cristian_B]

Cristain B
thanks for the reply

Are you saying that man serves the Law? Or are you saying that the Law serves man?

Neither one. Man keeps the Law so he would not be under the Law (i.e.: condemned by the Law).

And what exactly is the “law of liberty”? Liberty does imply that one is liberated from something.

I was referring to the Ten commandments. And by liberty (sorry for the confusion) I meant that it ‘denotes’ your liberty; it puts ‘frontiers’ to our liberty. Just to make an analogy, I believe most people are happy that there are fences at the zoo so they won’t get too close tot he animals. So does this Law put us limits so we will be safe. This is what I was referring to.

 

[DPMartin]

Neither one. Man keeps the Law so he would not be under the Law (i.e.: condemned by the Law).

I was referring to the Ten commandments. And by liberty (sorry for the confusion) I meant that it ‘denotes’ your liberty; it puts ‘frontiers’ to our liberty. Just to make an analogy, I believe most people are happy that there are fences at the zoo so they won’t get too close tot he animals. So does this Law put us limits so we will be safe. This is what I was referring to.

Cristian B
thanks for the reply

The liberty is to not judge (“condemn” which would be man’s use of the law) therefore not be condemned of the law, as in, to be forgiven as you forgive. If one condemns he seeks to destroy, hates, anger, and justifies his hate, anger, by the law. But God’s Judgement is to restore, redeem. Not condemn. I mean the whole Gospel is about restoration unto the Lord. Then where is the justification for blame and condemnation? The Lord came not to condemn or destroy but to destroy that which would destroy those that are His (even death). The Lord is the shield, man is not his own shield, nor the shield of others.

You can refuse anything under the sun, but don’t refuse His Holy Presence with you. Hence one can receive what is to be received in His Holiness. And when the time come, you will not be refused into the Holiness of the Lord. Therefore one walks in the law of liberty, and the Commandments are written in the heart, by the presence of His Holiness with you. Note that Jesus is perfect, sinless without blemish, who had no need for repentance of His Ways for He is the Way. Verified by John the Baptist in John’s statement that John had need to be baptized by Jesus. Which would be the Holiness of the Lord. Therefore we repent, turn from our own ways to accommodate His Holiness. Not our’s, His. Hence the Charity that so many continue to redefine in accordance to their own views and desires. It is Lovingkindness that is of God not of man, that is the Lord God’s delight. Look at it this way, Apostle John states “God is Love”, hence what else is, or could be?

 

[diggerdomer]

diggerdomer

thanks for the reply

Yes but only One is able to fulfill the Commandments and the Law to the Lord God’s satisfaction. (Jesus Christ) And it can be presumed, that God already knew this when he gave Law and Commandment. So why give to those who could not fulfill?

It’s not that the people COULD not fulfill the law…they had the free will and ability to fulfill it or not. God’s knowing that they WOULD not is different than saying they COULD not.

 

[DPMartin]

It’s not that the people COULD not fulfill the law…they had the free will and ability to fulfill it or not. God’s knowing that they WOULD not is different than saying they COULD not.

diggerdomer
thanks for the reply

Then why is the Cross required?

You forget the rest of the law:

Lev:2:3: And the remnant of the meat offering shall be Aaron’s and his sons’: it is a thing most holy of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire.

Lev:2:10: And that which is left of the meat offering shall be Aaron’s and his sons’: it is a thing most holy of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire.

Lev:2:11: No meat offering, which ye shall bring unto the LORD, shall be made with leaven: for ye shall burn no leaven, nor any honey, in any **offering of the LORD **made by fire.

Lev:6:18: All the males among the children of Aaron shall eat of it. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations concerning the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire: every one that toucheth them shall be holy.

Lev:7:30: His own hands shall bring the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire, the fat with the breast, it shall he bring, that the breast may be waved for a wave offering before the LORD.

Lev:7:35: This is the portion of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire, in the day when he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest’s office;

Lev:10:12: And Moses spake unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons that were left, Take the meat offering that remaineth of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire, and eat it without leaven beside the altar: for it is most holy:

Lev:21:6: They shall be holy unto their God, and not profane the name of their God: for the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire, and the bread of their God, they do offer: therefore they shall be holy.

Lev:21:21: No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

Lev:24:9: And it shall be Aaron’s and his sons’; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it is most holy unto him of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire by a perpetual statute.

Note: my friend, that these are “of the LORD” no mention “of man” here. Forgiveness and Mercy note also the Highest place in this Kingdom at the time of Moses is the Mercy seat. Required in order to be a Kingdom in the earth in God’s Presence.

God knowing and said:

Gen:3
14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Notice that the Lord God said that He will.

Now on the matter of what they would not do, and is of great concern today is:

Ex:19:5: Now therefore, if ye will **obey my voice **indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Num:14:22: Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Deut:8:20: As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Deut:15:5: Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.

NT:

Jn:10:16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jn:10:27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jn:18:37: Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

In other words my friend, without the Presence of the Lord your God with you, the Word of God cannot be fulfilled in you, which includes His Commandments.

When it comes to free will, that is your choice. But don’t forget if you have choice so does God. And what is more important to Him? Surly it has to be His Choice for you.

 

[ejb21]

Augustine said some things regarding your questions. To paraphrase Augustine : God gave us the Law so Grace we would seek; God gave us Grace so the Law we might keep.

 

[DPMartin]

Augustine said some things regarding your questions. To paraphrase Augustine : God gave us the Law so Grace we would seek; God gave us Grace so the Law we might keep.

ejb21

thanks for the reply

Exactly!

 

[diggerdomer]

diggerdomer
thanks for the reply

Then why is the Cross required?

You forget the rest of the law:

Lev:2:3: And the remnant of the meat offering shall be Aaron’s and his sons’: it is a thing most holy of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire.

Lev:2:10: And that which is left of the meat offering shall be Aaron’s and his sons’: it is a thing most holy of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire.

Lev:2:11: No meat offering, which ye shall bring unto the LORD, shall be made with leaven: for ye shall burn no leaven, nor any honey, in any **offering of the LORD **made by fire.

Lev:6:18: All the males among the children of Aaron shall eat of it. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations concerning the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire: every one that toucheth them shall be holy.

Lev:7:30: His own hands shall bring the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire, the fat with the breast, it shall he bring, that the breast may be waved for a wave offering before the LORD.

Lev:7:35: This is the portion of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire, in the day when he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest’s office;

Lev:10:12: And Moses spake unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons that were left, Take the meat offering that remaineth of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire, and eat it without leaven beside the altar: for it is most holy:

Lev:21:6: They shall be holy unto their God, and not profane the name of their God: for the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire, and the bread of their God, they do offer: therefore they shall be holy.

Lev:21:21: No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

Lev:24:9: And it shall be Aaron’s and his sons’; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it is most holy unto him of the **offerings of the LORD **made by fire by a perpetual statute.

Note: my friend, that these are “of the LORD” no mention “of man” here. Forgiveness and Mercy note also the Highest place in this Kingdom at the time of Moses is the Mercy seat. Required in order to be a Kingdom in the earth in God’s Presence.

God knowing and said:

Gen:3
14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Notice that the Lord God said that He will.

Now on the matter of what they would not do, and is of great concern today is:

Ex:19:5: Now therefore, if ye will **obey my voice **indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Num:14:22: Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Deut:8:20: As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Deut:15:5: Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.

NT:

Jn:10:16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jn:10:27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jn:18:37: Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

In other words my friend, without the Presence of the Lord your God with you, the Word of God cannot be fulfilled in you, which includes His Commandments.

When it comes to free will, that is your choice. But don’t forget if you have choice so does God. And what is more important to Him? Surly it has to be His Choice for you.

Who said the Cross is required? It happened, yes. But whether or not it was required is a matter of theological speculation.

 

[rcjones]

The law is an expression of God’s Holiness, grace an expression of His Love.

See what sensus plenior adds:
In the beginning, the waters (Word) were separated into two words (law and grace), and the light (Holiness) and darkness (grace) were separated.

Christ is the firmament (desolate mediator) and the morning and evening (mediator between light and dark).(between law and grace)

There are two trees in the garden which are both Christ. He is the tree of life (grace) and the tree of death (Holiness). The two trees are one reconciled by a river of life (Christ) in Revelation.

In the flood he is the rain from above which gives life (grace) and he is the flood from below (law) which destroys. And he is the ark which is between the two.

He is the pillar of smoke (darkness-grace) in the day (Holiness) and the pillar of fire (Holiness) in the night (darkness-grace).

He is the King (law) and the Priest (grace). He is the Judge (law) and the Prophet (grace).

Law and grace could not coexist with men around, until the Man reconciled them in Himself.

As long as there was God alone, there was no need for a cross. But knowing that we would not be holy, the moment He thought to create us he conceived of the cross so that he wouldn’t have to destroy us.

A promise of the cross sustained those looking forward to it. A memory of the cross sustains us. The cross stands between the old covenant (law) and the new (grace).

As long as God is Holy, there will be an expression of the law. As long as God is loving, the cross will not lose it’s power to permit us to stand in the presence of God.