Grace saves not our works! no works no heaven?

[Tom]

I couldn’t figure out how to link a single post so I copied it:
There are “works” and then there are “works of the Law”, two very different subjects. “works” vs. the “works of the Law”. (all quotes are from www.drbo.org)
Works:
Matthew 5 (The eight beatitudes): 14 - 19
Matthew 11,2
Matthew 16,
Matthew 23,1-5 And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes.
Mark 6,2
Mark 6,14
Luke 10,13
Luke 19,37
John 3,19 –
John 5,20
John 5,36
John 6,28
John 7,3-7
John 8,39
John 8,41
John 9,3
John 9,4
John 10,25-38
John 14,10 -12
John 15,24
Acts Of Apostles 2,11
Acts Of Apostles 9,36
Acts Of Apostles 26,20
Romans 2,6
2 Corinthians 11,15

Works of the Law:
Romans 3,20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3,27 Where is then thy boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3,28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.
Romans 4,2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. Same epistle (Romans), speaking of works of the Law
Romans 4,6 As David also termeth the blessedness of a man, to whom God reputeth justice without works (of the Law):
Romans 9,12 Not of works (of the Law), but of him that calleth, it was said to her: The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9,32 Why so? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were of works(of the Law). For they stumbled at the stumblingstone.
Romans 11,6 And if by grace, it is not now by works(of the Law): otherwise grace is no more grace.
Romans 13,12 The night is passed, and the day is at hand. Let us therefore cast off the works(of the Law) of darkness, and put on the armour of light.
Galatians 2,16 But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 3,2 This only would I learn of you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3,5 He therefore who giveth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you; doth he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of the faith?
Galatians 3,10 For as many as are of the works of the law, are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is every one, that abideth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Galatians 5,19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury,
Ephesians 2,9 Not of works(of the Law), that no man may glory.

 

[drforjc]

James is continuing in the instruction that includes Abraham… it is necessary to the both/and understanding, and is the example given to attest to that.

He surely could have used other examples, but my guess is that the people of the time would relate to Abraham quickly.

please re-read verse 22

I don’t think we are actually in disagreement. I’m not advocating “works alone,” just saying that “faith **alone” **is specifically rejected in verse 24.

I think we both agree that verse 22 supports the “both/and” interpretation.

 

[littleone]

Hi all here’s something for you.
Abraham was counted as being a man of faith this caused God to relate him as a friend of God, that the stars of the sky would not be as many as the decedents of Abraham.

No where does the bible say that Abraham did good works in what is related in the New Testament as good works. (That I recall, and yet if we read in the spirit …he did just that).

OK then it was only one act to God that caused him to become a mighty man (friend) of God. Remembering that in the flesh Abraham was a man of women (Hagar).
The two points here are

1. When God called Abraham to pick up his tent he did so without question. His faith was unquestionable in that Abraham didn’t even know where He wa going.
2. His GOOD deeds were for runner of how God expects his children to still be. That is why St Therese words and example are so for this time.

His good deeds were NOT the so called good deeds Jesus said that some did and paraded themself around “look at me” attitude I did this and that. What did Jesus say about those people was. “They have all ready been paid, they will not be paid by their Father in Heaven. DON’T be like them” Do your good works where the left hand cannot see what the right hand is doing, do it behind a closed door so no on else can see, and then your Father in heaven will pay you.

God NEEDS His children to take the example of Abraham in faith, through the grace he was given, relating as he did, as Therese ( the little flower) said “Like a little child I will offer myself”. NOT as childish but child like, dependent upon our Father in Heaven. That is when the spirit leads, and the Grace comes forth and creates the desire within the child to do good works. For the Father to be pleased.
It then has NOTHING to do with the flesh.
The good deeds of Abraham were his example to those around, to the Jews and to we of this generation.
The circle is completing itself.

 

[RCCDefender]

James 2:14-26

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

God gives us the grace to even have the faith to start with. So we are indeed saved by God’s grace. The CCC states clearly that salvation is from God alone.

After God gives us the grace to have faith, we must have an “active” faith; faith working through love. This is what some Catholic’s call faith + works, but I like it better stated “faith working through love”. But the bottom line is that we don’t have faith without God’s grace in the first place.

 

[Tom]

Littleone, if I may make a general observation. You seem to be attempting to prove that you need do nothing, no “work” to follow Jesus. You certainly know in your heart that isn’t true. I’m not sure if you’re combating things you’ve learned against things you’re now learning, or if you’re trying to figure it out for the first time. It does make a difference.

Hi all here’s something for you.
Abraham was counted as being a man of faith this caused God to relate him as a friend of God, that the stars of the sky would not be as many as the decedents of Abraham.
No where does the bible say that Abraham did good works in what is related in the New Testament as good works. (That I recall, and yet if we read in the spirit …he did just that).

Perhaps we should define these “works”. Acting on the Word of God is a “work”. The key there is it requires action, not simply assent or agreement. Abram picked up his tent and left, he didn’t say, “alright God, I believe you” and just sit there, he added the required action. That is a “work”. When you pray, you are performing a “work” which God calls you to do.

 

[Tom]

OK then it was only one act to God that caused him to become a mighty man (friend) of God. Remembering that in the flesh Abraham was a man of women (Hagar).

A little out of sequence, Hagar doesn’t appear for many years after Abram follows the voice of God. Second point, we have absolutely no idea what his actions were prior to him being called by God. You assume he did nothing good. I would submit that he sought God. Neither can be proven.

The two points here are

1. When God called Abraham to pick up his tent he did so without question. His faith was unquestionable in that Abraham didn’t even know where He wa going.
2. His GOOD deeds were for runner of how God expects his children to still be. That is why St Therese words and example are so for this time.

Again, following the commands of God is a “work”.

 

[Tom]

His good deeds were NOT the so called good deeds Jesus said that some did and paraded themself around “look at me” attitude I did this and that.

Now you’ve introduced an entirely new argument, one, which is basically, correct. A person should never seek praise for a “work” he has performed. However Abrams good “works” were exactly the works Jesus describes, see John chap 14
www.DRBrg:

John 14, 11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. 15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

What are His commandments?
There are many, many Scriptural references for good “works” which Jesus commands we do, He never says we should gloat or seek earthly praise for them.

Some further readings:
Luke 16, Mark 3, & Matthew 12, John 7,
Apocalypse Of Saint John 2,1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he, who holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks: 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them that are evil, and thou hast tried them, who say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And thou hast patience, and hast endured for my name, and hast not fainted. 4 But I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first charity. 5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

 

[RCCDefender]

God gives us the grace to even have the faith to start with. So we are indeed saved by God’s grace. The CCC states clearly that salvation is from God alone.

After God gives us the grace to have faith, we must have an “active” faith; faith working through love. This is what some Catholic’s call faith + works, but I like it better stated “faith working through love”. But the bottom line is that we don’t have faith without God’s grace in the first place.

A person should never seek praise for a “work” he has performed.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I would like to add a thought to Tom’s comment about works. His comments about Abraham acting upon God’s word qualifying as a “work” is absolutely true. However, I think that sometimes our separated brethren believe that when a Catholic refers to works that we are always talking about “deeds”. This is not the case… works can and often are of a spiritual nature. For example, praying for the souls of sinners is a “work”. It is faith working through love. On the other hand, giving alms to the poor is a work if it is done for love of Christ and loving our neighbor., But it always seems that the worst is thought of a Catholics motives and giving alms is often twisted into “trying to buy your way to heaven”. It depends on what is in your heart at the time you do the action. Is it out of love and obedience to God? If so, then it is the kind of “work” that we Catholics think is a necessary partner to faith. If you do something for your own glory or “just because you have to” then it is not the kind of works we are talking about. Those are the kinds of works (works of Law we see Paul talking about) that are not efficacious.

 

[dan85]

We get to heaven by calling on the name of jesus, not by doing good works. Good works come from a desire to do gods will. Its is the fruit from our faith. Catholics do good works because they believe they NEED to, to be saved. They believe that the power lies in them to achive salvation, Protestants do good works because they WANT to please God whom we all love. Not because they believe it will get them into heaven.

 

[Tom]

We get to heaven by calling on the name of jesus, not by doing good works. Good works come from a desire to do gods will. Its is the fruit from our faith. Catholics do good works because they believe they NEED to, to be saved. They believe that the power lies in them to achive salvation, Protestants do good works because they WANT to please God whom we all love. Not because they believe it will get them into heaven.

Interesting that you say what Catholics do and why they do it. Please point out to me the paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which says what you claim. Your assesment is contray to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and I doubt highly you are qualified to state what the many thousands of differing protestant factions do or why they do them.

 

[dan85]

Tom, why then do you do good works?

 

[littleone]

Littleone, if I may make a general observation. You seem to be attempting to prove that you need do nothing, no “work” to follow Jesus. You certainly know in your heart that isn’t true. I’m not sure if you’re combating things you’ve learned against things you’re now learning, or if you’re trying to figure it out for the first time. It does make a difference.

Perhaps we should define these “works”. Acting on the Word of God is a “work”. The key there is it requires action, not simply assent or agreement. Abram picked up his tent and left, he didn’t say, “alright God, I believe you” and just sit there, he added the required action. That is a “work”. When you pray, you are performing a “work” which God calls you to do.

Tom I’m just pointiing out that even in the old testiment the likes of Abraham had such a strong faith in God that no matter what, he did what God asked him to do. That was his strong faith. In those days the action of moving at God’s will was their works. God gave them that grace and through that their faith was built through beiing obediant to the will of God.

 

[Tom]

I understand you’re not familiar with Catholic teaching, so permit me to enlight you. The Catechism of the Catholic Church spells out much of the official Catholic teaching. You can find it on-line at:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
I’m just going to cut and paste some paragraphs which deal with “works”.
www.scborromeo.org:

679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He “acquired” this right by his cross. The Father has given “all judgment to the Son”. Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself. By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.

 

[Tom]

www.scborromeo.org:

798 The Holy Spirit is “the principle of every vital and truly saving action in each part of the Body.” He works in many ways to build up the whole Body in charity: by God’s Word “which is able to build you up”; by Baptism, through which he forms Christ’s Body; by the sacraments, which give growth and healing to Christ’s members; by “the grace of the apostles, which holds first place among his gifts”; by the virtues, which make us act according to what is good; finally, by the many special graces (called “charisms”), by which he makes the faithful “fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church.”

 

[Tom]

In those days the action of moving at God’s will was their works. God gave them that grace and through that their faith was built through beiing obediant to the will of God.

It’s exactly the same in these days as it was in those days. Doing the will of God is our “work”. Matthew chap 5 has some really good ideas about what some of those desires are. And yes God expects us to “do” them, not just think about them.

 

[Tom]

One of my favorites:
www.scborromeo.org:

1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.

 

[littleone]

We get to heaven by calling on the name of jesus, not by doing good works. Good works come from a desire to do gods will. Its is the fruit from our faith. Catholics do good works because they believe they NEED to, to be saved. They believe that the power lies in them to achive salvation, Protestants do good works because they WANT to please God whom we all love. Not because they believe it will get them into heaven.

Brother, you need to correct your wording you have used a grose generalisation there. It therefore is not correct if only one catholic does the opposit of what you have stated.
God bless anyway, we are all human eh!

 

[Tom]

www.scborromeo.org:

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.