Grace Theology Applied to Panhandling---Thoughts?

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to the OP.

i think its like the 2nd person said. if you give with the condition that they use the money as YOU would have them use it then youre not really giving. giving as you describe it to ME sounds proper.

you give with no thought of reward because you perceive that somebody is in need. who on earth OR in heaven could fault you for that?

its my opinion that the world needs more people like you. my only warning would be this. by seein all that suffering youll become jaded to a degree. try to guard against losing the quality that has given you such a high regard for human life in the first place.
 
Black_Dog said:
I’d call that a hard days work
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“Work” involves producing something of equal or greater value to the money received.

He may be putting in a lot of hours, doing something most of us would not want to do, but he is not actually producing anything of value.
 
Replying to jmcrae (post #13): Giving to a homeless foundation is totally laudable—but the concern lies with what to do with a homeless person right in front of you, who (at that moment) clearly has not yet received help from an organization.

Replying to BSHoop96 (post #14): Of course we do not have a responsibility to help alcoholics. But again, the question arises: what if you find someone from the purist school of homeless people (i.e. those with genuine needs)? You can never be sure. We misuse grace too, but that does not make the giver of grace (or the grace itself) suddenly defiled. The point ought to be emphasized: What the homeless person does with grace is his/her problem, not ours.

Replying to rpp (post #15): If we find a homeless person in the street, we have clearly found someone outside the ambit of the help of an organization (at that very moment).

Replying to Wild Boar (post #16): Yes, we are limited in our resources, but that does not prevent us from trying our best (through grace) to help—within reason (i.e. I would not give $500 to a single homeless person whom I had never heretofore met). Yes, there does exist the concept of the justice of God, but a homeless person will understand it only after misusing grace given to him/her (for which only the homeless person deserves blame). If a homeless person uses money for a good reason, then it confirms the idea that love can still move the needy in this world.

Replying to ElizabethPH (post #17): Our proclivities in reflecting on our relationships with the poor seem directly proportional to the financial security of the places we live, no?

Replying to spirithound (post #18) and rpp (post #19): That sounds right. NYC offers income generating opportunities for unscrupulous panhandlers.

Replying to montesino (post #20): (nods)

Replying to montesino (post #21): We can certainly all agree on a respect for the dignity of all life.

Replying to rpp (post #22): I might follow you too (whimsical expression).

Replying to Black_Dog (post #23): Yes, a day of hard work indeed (sarcastic face).

Replying to rpp (post #24): It is absolutely shameful that deception like that could go on, but there is such a thing as the justice of God. All that misused grace will lead to dire consequences.

Replying to jmcrae (post #25): If a method of finding money is dishonest, then its degree or exertion on the practitioner does not matter (obviously).

Replying to everyone thus far: We all agree about the wrongness of any unscrupulous or illegal means of procuring money for oneself. But if we adopt the grace argument, then our hands are clean of any wrongdoing committed by those homeless who would (by an errant exertion of free will) misuse anything given to them. The moment our eyes intersect with a panhandler represents a moment in which we recognize that someone is in pain. That poor soul, for reasons unknown to us at the given moment, lies outside the ambit of the organizational help that we would otherwise prefer and trust more. Our trust, however, does not become exhausted in institutional help—a reserved modicum of trust exists in our consciences, a reserve just strong enough to overcome whatever reluctance exists over donation. I give my donation freely, but with a serious and somber prayer that the person uses it correctly—but again, at that point, the matter is out of my hands.
 
jmcrae said:
“Work” involves producing something of equal or greater value to the money received.
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No-one would make any sort of living if this were true. If I make pens, the value of each pen (being the cost of labour and materials that I expend in producing it) might be, say, 5c - of course I dont’ sell it for 5c, I sell it for 15c, 50c or $1 - or $500 if people are willing to pay $500 for it. Thus my work, if I hope to earn a living from it, will invariably involve my producing something of LESS value than the money I receive for it. I make my living from the profit - the difference.
He may be putting in a lot of hours, doing something most of us would not want to do, but he is not actually producing anything of value.
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That’s more like it - if you make NOTHING of value then arguably you deserve not to make a living. But then what sort of work does, say, an actor do? Or a politician? In what way does it produce value? Why does an actor get paid even if their play or movie is universally panned and no-one comes to see it, or a politician if they spend their whole term in opposition and don’t actually achieve anything - and thus their work is arguably of no value?
 
LilyM said:
No-one would make any sort of living if this were true. If I make pens, the value of each pen (being the cost of labour and materials that I expend in producing it) might be, say, 5c - of course I dont’ sell it for 5c, I sell it for 15c, 50c or $1 - or $500 if people are willing to pay $500 for it. Thus my work, if I hope to earn a living from it, will invariably involve my producing something of LESS value than the money I receive for it. I make my living from the profit - the difference.
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Your hourly wage also factors into the equation. You have to produce pens at a high enough rate of speed, and from materials that are sufficiently inexpensive, that it is worth an employer’s while to hire you to do this work. Your employer has to be able to get more money for the pens than he has paid you for your labour, added to the cost of the raw materials for the pens (and also added to the cost of renting a factory floor and equipping it with the right kind of tools for the job, and secretarial support, etc.).

That’s what I mean by producing something of equal or greater value (“value” being the price the end customer will want to pay for it) than the work and materials that have been put into it (cost to your employer).
That’s more like it - if you make NOTHING of value then arguably you deserve not to make a living. But then what sort of work does, say, an actor do? Or a politician? In what way does it produce value? Why does an actor get paid even if their play or movie is universally panned and no-one comes to see it, or a politician if they spend their whole term in opposition and don’t actually achieve anything - and thus their work is arguably of no value?
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Having worked in the entertainment industry, I can assure you that no one gets paid, if the project doesn’t make any money. That’s the risk one takes, in a creative endeavor. You only get paid if there is an audience providing you with money to be paid with.

A politician in opposition is still an elected politician, and he still represents his constituency, so he is producing work of value to his constituents - he still takes their concerns to the government, and guides them through the proper channels to accomplish their goals. Unelected politicians don’t get paid anything - they go back to the regular work force, usually.
 
I think the Parable of the Talents applies here. If I give generously to the Church and other charities, they can certainly make more of it than I could by putting a $5 bill directly into the hands of a person who then buys a Big Mac combo from McDonald’s. You’d be surprised how much further a well-run food bank could make that same five bucks go!

When I was in college, there was a Catholic Church across the street that served a good, hot lunch to anyone who wanted one. They asked for a dollar if you had a dollar to give (this applied to the college kids who could use an inexpensive meal). Truth be told, they had a pretty hot setup. It was an impressive ministry, simultaneously bringing students and the homeless together for a good meal. My aforementioned five dollar bill fed me for a week. It seems pretty plain to me that my good will is better served in the hands of the Church than even my own. I believe there’s something in Colossians saying something to that tune; I’ll have to look it up again sometime.

In everything, know your conscience and act upon it. The Lord will help you.
 
OP:

I used to work at a homeless shelter for young adults that ranged in age from birth to 21. Based on what I have seen when I worked there for 15 months, I will never give money to “homeless” people. There was one pregnant girl and her “boyfriend” that panhandled and made more money than I did per day, tax free. There have been too many studies done that have shown that people that panhandle make more money than the average US wage, once again, all tax free. There are wayyyyy too many programs out there that offer food, shelter, training, job placement, etc. for anyone to be homeless by choice.

This used to be a source of conflict for my husband and I. We (finally) worked it out 2 weeks ago when there was a woman outside of our church that was asking for money. We decided that we would offer people what they needed, not what they wanted. She needed 9 more dollars to get a hotel room. We went to the hotel with her and paid the hotel directly.

A few months before that we were walking into a grocery store to buy food for a man that had asked us for money and a different man asked for $5 to get an ID. I refused, but hubby decided to give it to him. We went back to the grocery store a few hours later to buy groceries for us and he was out there again with the same story.

All of us that decide not to give money directly to people have very good reasons for it. I personally don’t want to be supporting a drug, alcohol, or panhandling habit.
 
I stick by my original statement: standing for 10 hours, begging, or panhandling as you call it, has to be the most horrendous way to try to make a living.

I always try to work on the basis that whenever someone approaches me for money, just maybe, it’s Christ in them appealing to the Christ in me. Yes, it’s a lot easier to refuse and to salve your conscience with the thought that “you give to official charities” and dont need to feel obligated but I think that’s a cop out…and not very Christian. 🤷
 
Black_Dog said:
I stick by my original statement: standing for 10 hours, begging, or panhandling as you call it, has to be the most horrendous way to try to make a living.

I always try to work on the basis that whenever someone approaches me for money, just maybe, it’s Christ in them appealing to the Christ in me. Yes, it’s a lot easier to refuse and to salve your conscience with the thought that “you give to official charities” and dont need to feel obligated but I think that’s a cop out…and not very Christian. 🤷
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Insulting those who disagree with you is itself, neither charitable nor, to use your phrase, “very Christian”.
 
Black_Dog said:
I stick by my original statement: standing for 10 hours, begging, or panhandling as you call it, has to be the most horrendous way to try to make a living.
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What value are they adding to society, by doing this? 🤷
 
honeyspeak said:
Replying to jmcrae (post #13): Giving to a homeless foundation is totally laudable—but the concern lies with what to do with a homeless person right in front of you, who (at that moment) clearly has not yet received help from an organization.
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What would be wrong with giving him a card that lists all of the available services, such as the locations of all the free lunches in the area, and all of the drop-in centres? You could also give him the address of the local welfare office.
 
How on earth am I insulting anyone??? I’m simply stating my beliefs 😦
 
Black_Dog said:
How on earth am I insulting anyone??? I’m simply stating my beliefs 😦
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In post #31, you said that those of us who support homeless foundations, lunch buses, drop-in shelters, and food banks are “copping out” and that we are not actually Christians.
 
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